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Vetarnic

The Tragedy Of The Commons, In One Picture

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This was taken just outside the Celebration starter town, Tap Dance:

wurm201207020134.jpg

Yes, I planted that sign, probably a week ago, as well as all the trees there, using my lower-quality sprouts cluttering up my inventory. None of them had reached the stage of "Old" or older by the time this happened. There were also a few fruit trees in the mix, but obviously, who's making the difference, right?

Celebration is just a month old, and it looks like a mess already. There is no tree left standing near the starting area that isn't deeded or fenced off. I thought it was urgent to replant trees, and this is what I'm rewarded with: Nothing will obviously stand between the newbie and his tree.

All of this speaks of selfishness and bad design. Selfishness, because presumably the newbie does not bother reading the tutorial, or the tutorial is just deficient, if he shows up and starts cutting mature trees. Bad design, because none of this should happen in the first place. So what will I have to do?

Start Burma-Shaving the roads with signs telling newbies stuff that they should have known from the tutorial? You know damn well it's hopeless -- they won't show any more respect to them than they have shown to the sign above.

Start fencing off entire areas near the starter area just to be able to plant trees in large quantities that won't be cut as soon as they reach "Mature", and use sprouts from these to replant even larger areas? A waste of time.

Ask Rolf to finally include a sickle in the starter kit to hopefully get newbies to replant, and hopefully spare all of us the Sisyphean task of trying to fix up after they have been through? The fences sound more realistic.

Edited by Vetarnic
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turn it all into desert and let the newbies have fun with crocodiles and scorpions

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turn it all into desert and let the newbies have fun with crocodiles and scorpions

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Putting up a sign saying "if you can't replant, DON'T CUT" is a little shortsighted. The newbie of course can't replant. Even if he HAD a sickle, the odds of finding another tree in that sparse area with a sprout is slim; the odds of that 1 q spout being replanted by him and actually surviving is even slimmer. He would probably need to have at least 15 trees there for every one cut, in order to have a spout that survives to replanting. Sickles alone are not really going to be a solution, other than to start the new player early in the habit of replanting. But the actual impact on the spawn area will be slim.

In the meantime -- the newbie needs a tree to cut (or SOMETHING to practice on) the same way a puppy needs something to chew, and heaven help you if you are not prepared for either case.

You and I have had discussions before about this. I think you are wrong if you think Rolf is going to make MAJOR changes to a sandbox game to give people a carefully manicured starting experience, though I also agree it can be smoother than it currently is. The facts are given in the tutorial, a d new players will ALWAYS rush through and ignore 95% of the tutorial. Its rather human nature. And it might in fact be doing the community itself a diservice, to "clean up the mess" in some fashion for them. If Celebration does not care to take responsibility for their starter area, it will soon look like a slum. But perhaps that is EXACTLY what Celebration needs, in order to make a transition from a group of individuals, into a real community. And perhaps if Rolf does that for them, they will never, ever make that transition.

If you are TRULY trying to get the start spawn looking better (as opposed to blowing off steam about a huge assortment of dissatisfactions with the game in general), my experience on Indy is that the only way to plant trees and get them to survive in the newbie areas, is to plant so dang many of them that the new players cannot possibly cut them all. That way some actually survivie to Old. Otherwise if the only trees are Young/Mature, thats what the newbie will cut. The ones that do survive to Old, will then distract the new players while you replant again. Its probably not something you can do alone -- I planted about 700-900 saplings near FM and finally think I am at a stage where its getting "easy" to stay ahead of the new players, and maybe a monthly replant of a couple dozen is now enough. Don;t bother with fruit trees and lilac bushes, you need fast growing pine, As soon as some live long enough to be Old, the newbies will mostly gravitate to those -- after all, they DO want more logs from one tree cutting, a single 4kg log does them little good and just means they need to cut a couple dozen more trees. But if tthey are all young/mature, and there are only 20-40 or those, I can predict none will live long enough to make a "sustainable" forest. Planting 20-30 trees is not going to actually be any better than planting one or two. Sounds like a community tree planting weekend is the solution. Actually a series of weekends, focusing on the start area, until improvements start actually "sticking".

I am not really sure however the trees are the issue here. Do YOU think they really are? And I am not sure lecturing people about how selfish human nature is, gets very many people to change. Do you think it does?

You can come back of course and say that its not your job to make the game friendly to new players. Which of course is why you get areas like this. But I still think based on our chats, and your posts on other threads, that you have a ton of frustrations about expectations that the game is not matching up with -- and if it wasn't this specific issue, it would just be some other issue. You say Rolf is at fault for the game not being a success -- but who is to decide what that success is? Contsantly growing numbers oif subscriptions may not be his measure of "success". Maybe this is just EXACTLY the way he likes things. Maybe the community of Celebration needs to do some hard thinking if they want things any different. And maybe you do, too, because I think this is just the tip of the iceberg for your frustrations.

Spouting off steam is good because it can clear your mind. After that, comes a lot of thinking.

Edited by Brash_Endeavors

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I am actually going to do a "Part 2" on my response, heh, because this is something I have been brooding about myself a lot lately. A LOT of Wurm players feel a LOT of frustration, its not just you or a handful or critics. It's everybody who loves the game.

Normally if a business does not keep customers happy, they just go elsewhere. The problem for most Wurm addicts is ... there is no place else to go to.

People say Rolf is "ruining" the game and that -- as an example -- this would not all be happening if Notch were the one in charge. The fact is, Notch COULD have made a game just like Wurm, I think few people doubt that, and he chose not to. He chose to make Minecraft instead, and after that other games, none of which are the least bit like Wurm. Even games "like" Wurm (H&H, Salem, Archage, Xyson, Darkfall, MO) deliberately chose NOT to make a game like Wurm. Hundreds of other game developers, from Sony Online and Electrionic Arts, down to small little garage indy developers, deliberately chose NOT to make a game like Wurm. So the frustration for many is -- they cannot force Rolf to do what they want him to. They can sometimes influence him -- and in fact, they often have -- but he is never going to "behave" they way they want. Never ever ever. They have no real "stick" -- they can leave the game, but they can't instead support a project that "does Wurm right." Because nobody is doing it. Rolf, the loaded cannon, is the only option most of us have if we want a Wurm-type game.

That's frustrating, and its perfectly natural to be angry about it, but that anger isn't going to change Rolf. Its not going to convince the entire population here to quit en masse (at least until another game appears that "behaves" like they want it to, or until Rolf does something stupid again on the scale of opening PvE servers to PvP raids.) Until another game developer steps forward and makes your "dream game" exactly the way you think it "should" be run, Rolf for all his madness and unpredictable nature, is unfortunately all you have. That or sit back and pretend to yourself that Archage or Salem or another game will somehow be any different. My bet is that won;t ever happen.

So .. learn to love the bomb. Learn to adapt and to change how the game works. Or get out while you still have any sanity left., Your choice.

Maybe for Rolf, the real goal is to give you that choice. Who knows what goes on in that crazy mind of his. I sure as heck don't. I am not sure Rolf does, either. Wurm is what it is, and to call it a "failure" because it is not matching your expectations, is just a personal valuation. Until Wurm actually shuts down the last server and closes its doors for good, we have no idea whether this is that Rolf actually intended all along. Some days, I am actually kind of glad that he is a crazy crazy man, and that he blithely ignores what thousands of other people insist that he "needs" to do, to be a success. Obviously, his ideas of "success" are not the same as Notch's ideas, or he could be a millionaire too. And we'd still be waiting for someone to make a game like Wurm.

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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Putting up a sign saying "if you can't replant, DON'T CUT" is a little shortsighted. The newbie of course can't replant. Even if he HAD a sickle, the odds of finding another tree in that sparse area with a sprout is slim; the odds of that 1 q spout being replanted by him and actually surviving is even slimmer. He would probably need to have at least 15 trees there for every one cut, in order to have a spout that survives to replanting. Sickles alone are not really going to be a solution, other than to start the new player early in the habit of replanting. But the actual impact on the spawn area will be slim.

In the meantime -- the newbie needs a tree to cut (or SOMETHING to practice on) the same way a puppy needs something to chew, and heaven help you if you are not prepared for either case.

You and I have had discussions before about this. I think you are wrong if you think Rolf is going to make MAJOR changes to a sandbox game to give people a carefully manicured starting experience, though I also agree it can be smoother than it currently is. The facts are given in the tutorial, a d new players will ALWAYS rush through and ignore 95% of the tutorial. Its rather human nature. And it might in fact be doing the community itself a diservice, to "clean up the mess" in some fashion for them. If Celebration does not care to take responsibility for their starter area, it will soon look like a slum. But perhaps that is EXACTLY what Celebration needs, in order to make a transition from a group of individuals, into a real community. And perhaps if Rolf does that for them, they will never, ever make that transition.

If you are TRULY trying to get the start spawn looking better (as opposed to blowing off steam about a huge assortment of dissatisfactions with the game in general), my experience on Indy is that the only way to plant trees and get them to survive in the newbie areas, is to plant so dang many of them that the new players cannot possibly cut them all. That way some actually survivie to Old. Otherwise if the only trees are Young/Mature, thats what the newbie will cut. The ones that do survive to Old, will then distract the new players while you replant again. Its probably not something you can do alone -- I planted about 700-900 saplings near FM and finally think I am at a stage where its getting "easy" to stay ahead of the new players, and maybe a monthly replant of a couple dozen is now enough. Don;t bother with fruit trees and lilac bushes, you need fast growing pine, As soon as some live long enough to be Old, the newbies will mostly gravitate to those -- after all, they DO want more logs from one tree cutting, a single 4kg log does them little good and just means they need to cut a couple dozen more trees. But if tthey are all young/mature, and there are only 20-40 or those, I can predict none will live long enough to make a "sustainable" forest. Planting 20-30 trees is not going to actually be any better than planting one or two. Sounds like a community tree planting weekend is the solution. Actually a series of weekends, focusing on the start area, until improvements start actually "sticking".

I am not really sure however the trees are the issue here. Do YOU think they really are? And I am not sure lecturing people about how selfish human nature is, gets very many people to change. Do you think it does?

You can come back of course and say that its not your job to make the game friendly to new players. Which of course is why you get areas like this. But I still think based on our chats, and your posts on other threads, that you have a ton of frustrations about expectations that the game is not matching up with -- and if it wasn't this specific issue, it would just be some other issue. You say Rolf is at fault for the game not being a success -- but who is to decide what that success is? Contsantly growing numbers oif subscriptions may not be his measure of "success". Maybe this is just EXACTLY the way he likes things. Maybe the community of Celebration needs to do some hard thinking if they want things any different. And maybe you do, too, because I think this is just the tip of the iceberg for your frustrations.

Spouting off steam is good because it can clear your mind. After that, comes a lot of thinking.

Your right Brash... Rolf does what he does, and it is not always what we want.

New Characters (Players) need Sprouts for replanting.... but their skills are too low or non-existant, so asking a new character to sprout and replant isn't the solution. (I think that is why there is no sickle in the starter tool kit).

The solution is to find a Player with decent forestry and gardening skills to harvest sprouts and replant the trees near the starter deed..... even though there is absolutely no "monetary" benefit for doing so. There is a benefit of skill gain for the "Sap" that takes on this job, and for a few Players the skill gain is enough of a benefit.

Deli server has it's "Sap"... me. I replant trees near GD all the time. Celebration just needs to find it's "Sap".

Edited by Kyrmius

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What does it mean "a game like wurm"? What is wrong with wurm?

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This is why i dont care about this stuff and neither should you. Its just a waste of time to plant the trees as newbs doesnt care. They dont read the forums either

Edited by atazs

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As ugly as it may be, what did you expect to happen around a newb spawn?

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and THAT is why people fence off huge areas of forest. Sad......but true......

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This is why new characters should start as citizens of a noob town with ready access to resources and a hundred different GM billboards with hints on how to behave and respectfully interact with the world. After 7 in game days of playing they should know enough to survive and not run around deforesting, raising tar and clay tiles with carelessly dropped dirt and be automatically dismissed from their starter noob haven and sent into the wild armed with their new wits.

Starter towns like these would arm a new player properly, have sufficient space and resources to build their first shanty, mine their first ore and chop down their first trees.

Some player communities already gather the new and befuddled to educate them and keep an area relatively pristine but it would be so much more useful for a GM run starter deed where they could learn the basics for a while before being unleashed properly into the world. At least this way rampant deforestation is easy to correct (deed enforced rules to only allow old trees to be cut down) and accidental terrain raising, drop shaft creating etc can be corrected by all powerful GM's.

Can you imagine how much frustration would be saved for new players and vets alike?

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... Nothing will obviously stand between the newbie and his tree. ...

Of course it might have been a newbie in this case but I've seen the same from old players as well. Happens in every sandbox MMORPG where doing something gives you skill increases.

And some people look only at their skills and don't care for anything else, thus they will cut down whole forests as long as they get a skill increase in whatever it is they want to raise.

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I doubt a totally new player to Wurm did the cutting.

What I more suspect is that it's someone who likely has an older alt cutting the trees just to spite the sign.

Yeah, we have a word for that, but it's almost impossible to prove intent.

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The spawn towns really should contain links to helpful players or towns seeking to help out new players. 90% of my knowledge came from following experienced players, and a bit of wiki'ing looking up recipes and such. New players are totally helpless once they leave the tutorial.

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Sickles should be included in the starter kit.

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Consider why a new player would be cutting these trees down. I would think that it is simply because they need the resources from it to make their tools, to fuel forges for smelting iron to make tools, to perhaps cook food and maybe even to see a fire burning in the night. If someone were to plant a bulk bin, stock it with wood scraps, some junk low QL logs and plant a sign next to it pointing out the contents and their use, it would help the new players not *need* to cut trees for these sources of wood products. Although they will cut them down anyway just for the experience of doing it, I would imagine.

As Brash said, if someone has the desire for the starter area deeds to be forested, it will have to be a personal project that they will need to continually monitor and through their own personal efforts keep replanting as trees are cut down. Even with all this effort put into it, anyone can just come there and cut all the trees down (whatever their motives may be) with no repercussions against them for doing so since the game rules see this as acceptable behavior. If this is worth the effort and benificial is for the individual to decide.

Personally I would stock a bin with materials at the starter deed as I indicated and devote my game time to other projects of interest, since I see the concept of keeping a starter deed perimiter planted with beautiful trees as a futile and frustrating one at best.

=Ayes=

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This is why Golden Valley worked. Having a Sandobx inside the sandbox meant that newbies would learn the game before "starting for real", also having a place with all the resources laid out for newbies to stat tinkering with in the starter town made the experience of setting out more pleasant. I for one when i left New Dawn in GV to find a place of my own, already had the materials for a house, plus some extra lumps, a anvil, a few tools, and two carts (i play with my brother). Nowadays players are completely baffled in starter areas. After getting to Exo by sea, i died trying to tame a bear, when i landed on the starter area i was completely stumped, cause it had no landmarks, no buildings, nothing. I actually had to make a new character to get a compass so i could get some bearings.

So what i mean is Wurm needs a "real" starter town in all servers, like it had New Dawn, and all the other GM towns in Golden Valley. Having players make this doesn not give the same resources for construction as Gm made. I mean, players can't reset trees and mines like they'd do on GV.

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Except Golden Valley didn't work. There were valid reasons for changing back to a mixed population. Honestly a few chopped trees aren't a big deal, have you seen the sheer amount of birch around Celeb?

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-Replace the trees with bushes i've found new players large ignore them. Lavender, Oleander, Rose and grape.

-litter the bushes with Kindling from left over wood scraps. they are not obviously visible especially in thick lavender and oleander bushes and thus are found over time to satisfy that part of the fire equation.

-Noobs will often not bother with campfires if there is a forge available so build one or three

-Stuff the Bushes with sickles

-Noobs need lots of trees and logs. so either heard them to a forest a short but good distance away (which you'll have to keep herding deeper and deeper as the forest is wood scraped or import logs and dump them around in attractive piles. they will wander away when the urge to chop trees hits and they only see bushes.

-plant a sign alluding to the hidden sickle bushes

-Honestly most people if they saw a sign that said "if you can't replant don't cut" would be temped to clear cut and then drop a pile of olive sprouts at the sign base. human nature.

-pave wide clear straight roads away from the spawn that invite players to use them to leave.

Bottom line is:

It takes work, maintenance, effort and above all else patience to reform and improve a spawn. It's also largely thankless work that will invoke the ire of annoying loudmouth opine rs who talk all day and night but never help or contribute.

If it's important enough to you then it'll be worth it. Since it's your effort feel free to publicly and in writing/naming of objects take credit for it. you deserve it, haters will always hate, but they can do so elsewhere after you've unveiled the finished/maintained product and they melt away.

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You can't expect that just becuase - YOU - don't want someone else to cut those trees down, especially someone in dire need of wood to make themselves the most needed tools, that nobody will.

I care about the starter deeds and how they look, but you need to be reasonable in your expectations. Whykillme and I volunteered to fix the starter town up on Exodus (signs to help people get around, paved roads, planted lots of lamps for improved vision, a functional mailbox at the token, market stalls to make the traders easier to find etc etc) I know players fresh out of the tutorial aren't able to replant trees, so I won't be throwing up signs forbidding new guys to cut wood. Instead there's a group of people on Exodus who devote their time replanting thousands of trees in the area every once in a while, without pointing fingers or making angry forum threads.

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Good to see such community work being carried out. I'm sure the Exodus spawn deed is a presentable functional improvement over the unkempt one.

Besides most new players are unaware/uninterested in the forum until a bit down the line once they are not starving, running from cave bugs into the woods lost.

Edited by Epic_Sojourner

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Maybe some kind of reward(achievement ) for replanting on/around starter deeds, like 200?? sprouts and get a "sharewood " hat :P or something ??

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Except Golden Valley didn't work. There were valid reasons for changing back to a mixed population. Honestly a few chopped trees aren't a big deal, have you seen the sheer amount of birch around Celeb?

I think GV actually did work.. I remember playing on there for a while before I premmed. I mean yes, the place was a huge mess, but that didn't matter, because.. well it was GV :) People could get some starting skills up and figure out how to play the game while not really worrying about making a mess, because the server was already a big pile of woodscrap :P

However, that was before a dedicated tutorial, which, hopefully, makes a difference.

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Starter deeds have always been and will always be a mess, doing your bit to fix them is nice but anything you try is ultimately futile. Having wrecked starter deeds encourages people to move farther out and creates a fairly interesting and unique terrain of devestation that makes the game seem more interesting when you start. I'd rather not spawn in a dense forest, it's sorta forbidding and confusing.

People who plant trees are fine, but these regular whine threads about a starter area looking bad are frustrating and annoying. If you don't like the area and you were short sighted enough to settle there, move away.

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Sickle would be great addition to starter tools - also a part of tutorial will teach how to use it and conserve nature :D

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