What If House Walls, Palisades Etc Repopped After A Set Time?

[Zcul 303]

So I remember the feeling of getting raided much from Epic. First on Cauldron deed then on others.

What do you think about having walls etc repop after a set amount of time, or having them be repairable with no enemies are around after a set amount of time. For example repairing a palisade gate that was bashed into an unfinished state by simply adding 1 or 2 logs to it, instead of the regular amount?

/Zcul

[Scholz 844]

winning

[Brigander 22]

I would agree to the reduced rebuild amounts ie 3-5 planks for a "broken" house wall, 1-3 shards for a "broken" low stone wall, etc. I would also hope this method would be a plausable way to reintroduce raiding mechanics to the Chaos server.

[Epic_Sojourner 8]

It would help remove some of the urge to quit or portal back to freedom after a raid if you didn't have massive gaping holes to patch yourself on top of the discouragement of having been raided in the first place. Could help player retention.

[Wiro 370]

The walls are never a problem, nice idea nonetheless (less materials to repair).

[paterso 104]

Would it mean you deal 100 damage and then it transforms into the broken piece, or would it be a severe amount (e.g. 70-80dmg) and then it becomes broken? (if it was the latter, It could let the amount of resources required vary)

[BrQQQ 2,854]

As long as they can't be rebuilt when enemies are still there, then it should be okay.

[Zcul 303]

Well, there are some perspectives that must be considered:

- I think it would be 100% damage and it would become into a broken state (similar to unfinished structure with a few parts missing)

- Could be automatically repaired after 24 hours from some deed resource stack

- Can't be finished until no enemy presence in X hours.

[Kegan 3,926]

Well, there are some perspectives that must be considered:

- I think it would be 100% damage and it would become into a broken state (similar to unfinished structure with a few parts missing)

- Could be automatically repaired after 24 hours from some deed resource stack

- Can't be finished until no enemy presence in X hours.

This would give something for the guards to do and they wont do it while the enemy was around sounds great to me. This way if you were offline and you got raided the guards would fix the damage for you as long as you had the supplies for them to do the repairs

[darthryan 588]

What would you do if the enemies wouldn't leave you alone for 24 hours? Since there's the "broken wall" in the way, you can't rebuild, right?

[Perryn 79]

Its all about balance.

The two key factors are combat fun/rewards vs. enjoyment of playing in the enviroment Wurm provides being so heavily a crafting oriented game.

The current system is set up in a way that the following occures:

1. No Deed. Have a few segments of wall to repair, loose all horses, all combat gear, all resources to remake said gear and repair said damages, and also have the possibility of having the terraform of your area that can be completely destroyed.

2. Small Deed (1-5 players). Same as above minus the terraform destruction and the added loss of silver from drainage.

3. Large Deed (10+ active players). This is the most viable, however forces the kingdom to not viably have any smaller deeds. Also, if its defences are breached... all the above in example 2 are applicable.

The daunting factors are loss of real money in the form of silver when drained... as well as months of work wiped out in a couple hours of being raided. And the work i talk about is more in regards to weapons, armor and resources. IMO wall destruction repair is more an annoyance than a game changer. The history of Wurm pvp servers shows the results... people leave... word gets out and people don't come to play there. In a lot of cases... the newer players spend months getting to a level they can pvp, get raided once and are completely wiped out of everything and say "Balls to this..." and leave. Those that do stay after the initial raid are then targeted and raided on a regular basis for the draining of the token and in a short while follow the exodus.

I will agree with the fact it is appealing to play in a world where everything is so open and there are no rules. However, im certain even the most hardcore of you will agree.... more players... more deeds... more raiding ... more pvp is a much more appealing reality. So the question is.. how can we keep pvp as unrestricted as possible while having some guidelines in place that keep the populations high and attractive to new players?

First... I would suggest remove the real $ reward system that is currently in place. Raiding a deed and draining its silver which cost players real $ to provide for the upkeep of their deeds is ubserd. In no way should a real monetary prize be the reward for pvping in a game at the expense of its players. Would Rolf be inclined to provide a real $ reward out of his pocket for every successful raid? Why ask this from your players then?

My guess is... the concept behind the current draining reward system is to mimic a realistic resource gain for sacking another settlement. A good concept... though misguided in its actual choice of rewards. Taking from another kingdom the resources needed to sustain your own makes absolute sense. I would think that an alteration of deed upkeeps and what is drainable be altered. Still require silver to upkeep your deed (this is of course is a sourse of revenue for Rolf and helps keeps the wheels of Wurm turning). However add a secondary upkeep... which is in the form of goods and resources. A deed stockpile lets call it where the players of a deed need to add items on a regular basis... which are consumed by the deed in the same fashion silver is however these are the drainable resourse rewards for raiding, not the silver.

Cotton, Wemp, Wheat, mid level crafted items of all kinds... swords, armor, tools. These all have a given amount required monthly to sustain your deed and the amounts of each is determined by deed size. However... these are also the items that will be raided and taken upon successfully being sacked by the enemy. Say a percentage can be looted from the stockpile. This ensures the ability for the deed to carry on while the players replenish their stockpiles.

Second... all items on deed should be secured and unlootable as well as animals unkillable. Players of the deed that are killed however can be looted. The rewards are what come from the the deed stockpile of goods and resources. These are now of value because each deed requires them for their upkeep. This brings back the taking from another kingdom the resources needed to sustain your own... but at the same time after the raid is done and over... the players that were raided dont feel so frustrated that they leave.

And lets step back a moment and look how this would play out from the other side... the players actually on the offensive. They have a chance to loose the amount of mounts they chose to bring, the gear they chose to bring and thats pretty much it. They have the chance to gain resources to fuel their deed as well as any gear (a good chance the better of the gear found secure on deed anyways) off the players they have slain. Seems like a pretty even and balanced playing field in my opinion.

At the end of the day... you need to ask yourself. Does wiping someone out and completely disabling their ability to pvp serve a purpose? It doesnt. All it does is removes pvp from the server... kinda reverse logic wont you agree? If you ask me... having those same opponents there to fight over and over is worth a hell of a lot more than killing horses and driving them away from the gaming table.

I just think a more larger scale change needs to be done in order to make the pvp servers more appealing for people to come and stay playing there than small changes.

****EDIT**** Instead of animals being only unkillable... allow x % of horses to be able to be taken in a 24 hour period. This adds lootable horses as well to the list while still not taking the defenders down to nothing.

As well... Artifacts would be lootable... as well as a fixed number of any items that are enchanted or rare.

To recap... the goal of this is to still have a value in raiding at the same time not taking so much from your opponent that they feel its not worth staying.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Perryn

[Tryfaen 709]

This might be nice on a pve server when a troll bashes in but I don't like the idea of automated repairs or even easy repairs.

1. enemies wasting resources on their own walls/etc means they aren't using resources(including time) advancing their kingdoms influence or even raiding.

2. removing enemy deeds(think of a war deed right outside your kingdoms influence) becomes much more difficult when it can be repaired so easly.

3. priests not being able to build is kind of an important thing, it balanced out between fighters(priests) and craftsmen(nonpriests). This change would remove most of the penalty.

[Redd 4,281]

I like this idea but there are a few problems.

1. defenders can just repair walls too easy (makes raiding near impossible otherwise).

2. Off deed will just become silly with so little material to repair everything.

[Epic_Sojourner 8]

Its all about balance.

The two key factors are combat fun/rewards vs. enjoyment of playing in the enviroment Wurm provides being so heavily a crafting oriented game.

The current system is set up in a way that the following occures:

1. No Deed. Have a few segments of wall to repair, loose all horses, all combat gear, all resources to remake said gear and repair said damages, and also have the possibility of having the terraform of your area that can be completely destroyed.

2. Small Deed (1-5 players). Same as above minus the terraform destruction and the added loss of silver from drainage.

3. Large Deed (10+ active players). This is the most viable, however forces the kingdom to not viably have any smaller deeds. Also, if its defences are breached... all the above in example 2 are applicable.

The daunting factors are loss of real money in the form of silver when drained... as well as months of work wiped out in a couple hours of being raided. And the work i talk about is more in regards to weapons, armor and resources. IMO wall destruction repair is more an annoyance than a game changer. The history of Wurm pvp servers shows the results... people leave... word gets out and people don't come to play there. In a lot of cases... the newer players spend months getting to a level they can pvp, get raided once and are completely wiped out of everything and say "Balls to this..." and leave. Those that do stay after the initial raid are then targeted and raided on a regular basis for the draining of the token and in a short while follow the exodus.

I will agree with the fact it is appealing to play in a world where everything is so open and there are no rules. However, im certain even the most hardcore of you will agree.... more players... more deeds... more raiding ... more pvp is a much more appealing reality. So the question is.. how can we keep pvp as unrestricted as possible while having some guidelines in place that keep the populations high and attractive to new players?

First... I would suggest remove the real $ reward system that is currently in place. Raiding a deed and draining its silver which cost players real $ to provide for the upkeep of their deeds is ubserd. In no way should a real monetary prize be the reward for pvping in a game at the expense of its players. Would Rolf be inclined to provide a real $ reward out of his pocket for every successful raid? Why ask this from your players then?

My guess is... the concept behind the current draining reward system is to mimic a realistic resource gain for sacking another settlement. A good concept... though misguided in its actual choice of rewards. Taking from another kingdom the resources needed to sustain your own makes absolute sense. I would think that an alteration of deed upkeeps and what is drainable be altered. Still require silver to upkeep your deed (this is of course is a sourse of revenue for Rolf and helps keeps the wheels of Wurm turning). However add a secondary upkeep... which is in the form of goods and resources. A deed stockpile lets call it where the players of a deed need to add items on a regular basis... which are consumed by the deed in the same fashion silver is however these are the drainable resourse rewards for raiding, not the silver.

Cotton, Wemp, Wheat, mid level crafted items of all kinds... swords, armor, tools. These all have a given amount required monthly to sustain your deed and the amounts of each is determined by deed size. However... these are also the items that will be raided and taken upon successfully being sacked by the enemy. Say a percentage can be looted from the stockpile. This ensures the ability for the deed to carry on while the players replenish their stockpiles.

Second... all items on deed should be secured and unlootable as well as animals unkillable. Players of the deed that are killed however can be looted. The rewards are what come from the the deed stockpile of goods and resources. These are now of value because each deed requires them for their upkeep. This brings back the taking from another kingdom the resources needed to sustain your own... but at the same time after the raid is done and over... the players that were raided dont feel so frustrated that they leave.

And lets step back a moment and look how this would play out from the other side... the players actually on the offensive. They have a chance to loose the amount of mounts they chose to bring, the gear they chose to bring and thats pretty much it. They have the chance to gain resources to fuel their deed as well as any gear (a good chance the better of the gear found secure on deed anyways) off the players they have slain. Seems like a pretty even and balanced playing field in my opinion.

At the end of the day... you need to ask yourself. Does wiping someone out and completely disabling their ability to pvp serve a purpose? It doesnt. All it does is removes pvp from the server... kinda reverse logic wont you agree? If you ask me... having those same opponents there to fight over and over is worth a hell of a lot more than killing horses and driving them away from the gaming table.

I just think a more larger scale change needs to be done in order to make the pvp servers more appealing for people to come and stay playing there than small changes.

****EDIT**** Instead of animals being only unkillable... allow x % of horses to be able to be taken in a 24 hour period. This adds lootable horses as well to the list while still not taking the defenders down to nothing.

As well... Artifacts would be lootable... as well as a fixed number of any items that are enchanted or rare.

To recap... the goal of this is to still have a value in raiding at the same time not taking so much from your opponent that they feel its not worth staying.

This.

This is a fantastically thought out, eloquently outlined and exactly what epic needs to get off the dead end wild track and onto a fun, popular and sustainable pvp cluster model long term.

[Aetherwalker 1,863]

+1 to ruins actually looking like ruins, just please make them super easy to destroy

[Klaa 4,872]

Zcul and Kegan pretty well summed up my concerns on the matter. Guards and materials would be a necessity (thus a paid deed), perhaps even an NPC dedicated to repair work (hiring one means one less guard).

Edited July 2, 2012 by Klaa

[raidsoft 26]

lots of text

To Perryn's post, I agree that it would definitely increase player retention to do that, one thing that stood out to me with that though is territory warfare, if you can't drain a deed that means you can't actually force them out of a place either, what do you do if an enemy places down a deed right next to you and uses it as respawn/resupply point for example?

Not trying to put your post down at all, just develop it further and avoid loopholes/exploits in case it actually would get used. Looking forward to hear your thoughts on this

[Perryn 79]

To Perryn's post, I agree that it would definitely increase player retention to do that, one thing that stood out to me with that though is territory warfare, if you can't drain a deed that means you can't actually force them out of a place either, what do you do if an enemy places down a deed right next to you and uses it as respawn/resupply point for example?

Not trying to put your post down at all, just develop it further and avoid loopholes/exploits in case it actually would get used. Looking forward to hear your thoughts on this

Well.... the current rules would still be in place to prevent that. A player from one kingdom currently can not place a deed down in an enemy tower territory or even neutral territory. You have to have your own kingdoms tower placed before you can plant a deed.

As well... you still can drain a deed to the point it collapses or cut off its supply of resources it needs to survive. It would be the same mechanic that is currently in place only its resources and products rather than silver. The only difference is that it levels that playing field as well. As it stands now... an independently wealthy person could keep a deed going infinitely being able to throw unlimited real dollars at a token to keep it alive. Where as most individuals would not be able to or willing to do that.

With this new system... its all based on in game products and resources to fuel the deed.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Perryn

[raidsoft 26]

Oh yeah I didn't think about that, doesn't that then turn into a landrush? Build towers everywhere to claim as much land as you can, place deeds in good/valuable locations and then they can never be moved unless you want them to?

So you can't attack an area and take it over unless the people living there decides to leave them self. What happens though if you lose your tower and your deed is still there? What if your enemy comes in and destroys your tower so your territory drops and they build their own tower and now they got territory and can plant a deed?

[Perryn 79]

kinda. When Epic first launched there was a mini land rush for the kingdoms to establish a foothold then eventually spread their influence out.

And the way influence works (if a dev is looking and im wrong correct me) but even if the enemy takes out your tower... the deed still radiates its own influence. So in a nutshell if JK has a tower and a deed in a 50x50 area... and HOTs for example take out the tower.. they would also need to take out the deed... drain it to the point its owners cant sustain the required resources needed to keep it alive. This is the same as what happens now... only your replacing silver as its lifeblood with resources and products.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Perryn

[raidsoft 26]

I guess you could also have it as a choice, either you pay in silver for those resources (which also means you would drain it as silver) or you make them and it would be drained as what you made it as.

Now there's just one fairly large issue I can see then, right now you pay X amount in silver for upkeep, with this new system would you still pay the same amount in silver, just it can't be drained and on top of that you would need Extra resources be put into your deed (more effort and grinding) so really what people would see it as is just one more thing they need to do for their deeds upkeep rather then just pay it in silver... I think it would come down to how much actual effort would be needed. If you make the resources needed too easy to get then you will be able to feed the deed with what it needs very easily and draining it completely next to impossible unless you camp it 24/7. If you make resources too much work to get then people will just be frustrated with the system... Hard balance.

If you would allow the resources to be paid in silver instead of materials for the lazy and you had kept the original silver upkeep cost then deed cost would be increased for those that don't want to grind resources, but if you lower the original silver upkeep cost then you will see reduced income from those that choose not to pay in silver but in resources instead...

Thoughts on this?

[Perryn 79]

**nails a sign to the nearest tree**

Feed the Economy

If your lazy... buy all the resources needed to fuel your deed. Added more drive behind the economy is only a good thing. So in a way... even the independently wealthy would still be able to work around the system... but just a bit more work required in the economic area of the game. IMO... the concept of Wurm is not meant to have anything in place that is as easy as an auto button. There are many browser games out there that require this level of attention... there is no place for it in an MMO with this style of game play. As well... another thing to throw into the mix would be to keep a chaos type server active for all those that really do just want to play the mechanics that are currently in place. Server pops would be low as usual as well as all the negatives trying to be removed with this new system... but hey... to each their own. This idea is all about taking the current Epic cluster of servers... and filling them. Making the game more appealing to more people... to increase the enjoyment level to the players on the Epic servers as well as to utilize all the resources Rolf has dedicated to the 4 servers to keep them up and running as well as make it more profitable to him as well. Gotta remember... the more Rolf can make off the game... the more he can dedicate to the development of the game. More players = more subscriptions. More deeds = more upkeep income.

However yes... a balance would need to be calculated as to what is the right amount of resource upkeep is needed based on size of the deed. I wouldn't say it would be an overly hard balance to find though. As well... keep in mind there are different levels of time dedication required for different resources. Any of the farming resources are low maintenance. Bricks, lumber, rivets, nails, all are medium maintenance. And weapon, armor, tools are all high maintenance. The ratios would be reflected in the time required to gather each category of resource. And larger deeds... with more players means more spread of the workload to fuel your deed. Smaller deeds with less players equals less upkeep and less work required to provide.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Perryn

[GravityDog 41]

so if bashing / catapulting a wall turns it to "broken" how do you finish destroying it if that is what is desired?

[darthryan 588]

so if bashing / catapulting a wall turns it to "broken" how do you finish destroying it if that is what is desired?

Yeah, and wouldn't raiders(no offense, but there's always some dude who just wants to grief) destroy the broken wall as well?

[Epic_Sojourner 8]

My understanding is that on deed at least once broken the wall is passable and wont repair while your there but will when your gone and you cant simply make that deed tile unwallable or unfixable once your gone. To the other isse maybe make it so deeds cut off from tower influence start a countdown of some kind/length until disband unless tower influence is restored