Even More Oil Denerfing

[Kraljtatov 34]

Precisely what you're doing, Tinkerer. You're not happy until you get the last word are you. Now move along.

[Miretta 1,415]

Precisely what you're doing, Tinkerer. You're not happy until you get the last word are you. Now move along.

kralj! have you read the post the mod posted? No?!

then look that up before you post anything else here or you'll get this thread most likely locked or yourself a warning here with that kind of attitude....

[Ecrir 887]

I agree with Tinkerer that oil ql shouldn't have an effect on how bright it burns, unless at 0ql it burns as brightly as it does now. In that case big differences in ql of olives don't really matter that much since olive oil will always burn brighter than tar. That wouldn't be to bad considering you need extra work to get the olive oil compared to creating tar.

I also agree that spells for always burning lamps shouldn't be added, priests are already very good, they don't need an extra spell like that. If such a spell is seriously considered then the change should just be reverted back since the outcome would be the same, lamps all over the place that don't need fuel.

I agree the tar refining does sound a bit to easy, there'd need to be some penalties to it, like for example a weight loss (1kg tar -> 0.5kg refined tar) and possibly that normal tar would no longer work as fuel. If olive oil has the burning brighter buff then that all combined would hopefully be balanced enough.

edit: just read through Oracle's original tar refining suggestion again, actually looks perfectly fine so scratch my remark on that, seems I remembered it incorrectly.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Hordern

[Kraljtatov 34]

Isn't lamp QL the major factor for lamp brightness? I agree that there shouldn't be a spell for forever burning lamps also as we already have oil barrels and karma (neither of which work yet obviously but that's their intended purpose. As for makIng tar refining easier, I'm not sure how easy it was to begin with. Care to explain?

[picommander 13]

For someone like me who is in mass production with charcoal, this would be too convenient I think. OTOH I'd finally have some use for all the tar I get as a byproduct. I surely wouldn't complain...

[ReaverKane 363]

For someone like me who is in mass production with charcoal, this would be too convenient I think. OTOH I'd finally have some use for all the tar I get as a byproduct. I surely wouldn't complain...

Yeah, i'm actually starting to roll on coal production (not for the coal, but for the ash, making campfires clutters the space and then i have to remember where i put every single one to find the ash), but i have a tar pit not too far away, and even though i do plant olives (i like them for tile decorations, although with hedges i might start rolling with hedges opposed to olives) using tar is far more convinient for me, people living near olive groves might think the other way around. Its just not right that we have a lesser choice now.

Also, Tink, although we do have a longer product chain on olive oil, salt (specially good ql one) is even harder to get (unless you're a priest, but still the ql is a issue), so i still feel that there is a parallel between them, and the "open choice" that we had previously shouldn't be destroyed. I mean if we keep going around changing things so that we play the way Rolf thinks we should play, use stuff how Rolf wants, then sooner or later you'll go from sandbox to one of those old-school "RPG" games with a single straight arrow "Storyline".

[picommander 13]

I mean if we keep going around changing things so that we play the way Rolf thinks we should play, use stuff how Rolf wants, then sooner or later you'll go from sandbox to one of those old-school "RPG" games with a single straight arrow "Storyline".

But that seems quite a stretch besides there are old school RPGs that are far away from a linear storyline...

[Tinkerer 107]

Yes, salt is incredibly hard to find, but its only real use if for reducing decay in meals and is hardly a necessary item. Just has a use if you find some. Think I've found about three in my time playing wurm, and don't think I ever got around to using any of them. But it was historically always hard to obtain and pretty scarce (other than evaporating sea water). But we don't have salty sea water as an option - its perfectly drinkable. Think it would be more of a nightmare if it wasn't. But it would be nice if salt could be found a bit more commonly for food preservation.

By 'open choice' I assume you were referring to olive oil vs tar? you lost me a little there. But the choice is, would and should still be there. I just feel olive oil needs some kind of added bonus for use seeming as its much harder to make than a short digging timer on a tar pit, as well as being less easily carried. Tar should still exist as a cheap alternative, but as for tar refining.. I think that is a little pointless and just makes life harder for newer players. They have no 'easy, but slightly less effective' option and would either have to make a fruit press for olive oil and find olives, or perform some added refining task - presumably with something else they might not have lying around to use. Sure you say.. they can easily make one.. but a new player already has so many things they need to make. Fruit press is way, way, down that list.

Incidentally, it is slightly odd how there are two kinds of tar in the game both labelled the same, but stack seperately (that from charcoal pile, and that from pits) They don't even seem to combine.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Tinkerer

[picommander 13]

Incidentally, it is slightly odd how there are two kinds of tar in the game both labelled the same, but stack seperately (that from charcoal pile, and that from pits) They don't even seem to combine.

They don't? Haven't tried yet but have you tried to "normalize" both types in a BSB?

Btw, tar should always be an option for lanterns (but I think that's not what you are talking about here)

Edited July 11, 2012 by picommander

[ReaverKane 363]

Yes, salt is incredibly hard to find, but its only real use if for reducing decay in meals and is hardly a necessary item. Just has a use if you find some. Think I've found about three in my time playing wurm, and don't think I ever got around to using any of them. But it was historically always hard to obtain and pretty scarce (other than evaporating sea water). But we don't have salty sea water as an option - its perfectly drinkable. Think it would be more of a nightmare if it wasn't. But it would be nice if salt could be found a bit more commonly for food preservation.

By 'open choice' I assume you were referring to olive oil vs tar? you lost me a little there. But the choice is, would and should still be there. I just feel olive oil needs some kind of added bonus for use seeming as its much harder to make than a short digging timer on a tar pit, as well as being less easily carried. Tar should still exist as a cheap alternative, but as for tar refining.. I think that is a little pointless and just makes life harder for newer players. They have no 'easy, but slightly less effective' option and would either have to make a fruit press for olive oil and find olives, or perform some added refining task - presumably with something else they might not have lying around to use. Sure you say.. they can easily make one.. but a new player already has so many things they need to make. Fruit press is way, way, down that list.

Incidentally, it is slightly odd how there are two kinds of tar in the game both labelled the same, but stack seperately (that from charcoal pile, and that from pits) They don't even seem to combine.

That's Why to balance things out Oracle suggested, and most people support, refining Tar to get some sort of "Tar oil" aka Petroleum, maybe, to use on the oil barrel. That would even things out on the production chain, but would still be a good choice for those that don't have nor want olive trees, or simply don't have the time or oportunity to harvest them. Also if you couple it with the other options of uses for oil you would get the best for both sides. All win, oil would have more outlets and it wouldn't be such a mess to keep your deeds lit.

[Tinkerer 107]

They don't? Haven't tried yet but have you tried to "normalize" both types in a BSB?

Btw, tar should always be an option for lanterns (but I think that's not what you are talking about here)

Nope.. I have two entries for 'tar' in my BSB.

That's Why to balance things out Oracle suggested, and most people support, refining Tar to get some sort of "Tar oil" aka Petroleum, maybe, to use on the oil barrel. That would even things out on the production chain, but would still be a good choice for those that don't have nor want olive trees, or simply don't have the time or oportunity to harvest them. Also if you couple it with the other options of uses for oil you would get the best for both sides. All win, oil would have more outlets and it wouldn't be such a mess to keep your deeds lit.

I think you are slightly missing my point though. I think it is good that there is tar as an easy to use alternative. It gives new/low level characters an easy item to use to fuel their lanterns and any torches or lamps they may have.

To quote from Oracles post:

Raw tar needs processing in a " Tar Processing unit " ( new ) to be of any use. Tar processing unit ( similar to a forge but smaller and without a chimney, needs a couldron in construction ) is fueled by burning 20kg wood for cooking the raw tar into the following products

This doesn't exactly say 'easy' to me. Seems to be a specialist unit you need to make, as well as a cauldron. Both items would be almost bottom of any newer players 'to make' list. It would leave no easy option for lamps.

So maybe you run out of olive oil.. and its not season.. you have to build this and make a cauldron to make do until olive season? Its just making that chain as hard (if not harder) than olives.

The chains don't need to be the same in difficulty, having options is a good thing. Easy or harder? Normal duration or longer-lasting?. The same way you can now butcher a dead animal with pretty much anything - that is the 'easy and accessible' option. Results are not as good as using a butchering knife - which is generally slightly harder to obtain and means carrying an extra tool with you, I'm saying that tar should stay as it is.. an easy option. Let regular tar be put in barrels for deeds to use, but preference to use olive oil first if there is any.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Tinkerer

[picommander 13]

Incidentally, it is slightly odd how there are two kinds of tar in the game both labelled the same, but stack seperately (that from charcoal pile, and that from pits) They don't even seem to combine.

For the record: I just combined two small pieces of 'different' tar w/o any problems. So must be you (you can even combine a hot and a cold piece) or you have confused something.

EDIT:

Nope.. I have two entries for 'tar' in my BSB.

Very odd. Did you try to combine them? I haven't tried to put both types in the same BSB yet, but this looks like a bug anyway.

Edited July 11, 2012 by picommander

[Tinkerer 107]

In my lowQL BSB, The (8x) were from dug up tar, the (1x) was from a charcoal pile

Edited July 11, 2012 by Tinkerer

[picommander 13]

Just tried to reproduce it but it melts perfectly in my BSB. Guess either your BSB must be bugged or something was odd with one of your tar piles.

I'd recommend trying to reproduce it again with 2 new different piles.

[Tinkerer 107]

A different BSB.. different tar. Some dug, some produced.

Also, below as event log shows: examine on one of each, and attempted combine result.

(The produced tar was only from a few days ago when I needed some steel for my dredge)

Edited July 11, 2012 by Tinkerer

[picommander 13]

I'm out of ideas here. Maybe server specific bug (is this possible at all)? I'm on Deli if that matters.

But this is beyond the topic of this thread I think. You should post it in the server-(?) bugs forum.

[KaiH 1,126]

Multiple entries for the same item in a bsb just means there was a change of 'something' on the item. Any change on an item server side makes it a new item for the bsb (different group ID afaik).

I had 3 entries for peat at one time because peat was changed a few times and i kept adding peat to the bsb.

[picommander 13]

Thanks Kai, one mystery less

[Keldun 335]

Let's look at some arguments people keep throwing around:

First please reread Rolf's Post.

He did not advocate the use of oil at all and he did not nerf the lamps because of that. So people posting alternative uses for oil is utterly pointless.

He fixed the lamps to get rid off an exploit and simply stated that that would increase the use of oil. He also stated that it would be too much for most people and that he would work on solution for it which he delivered. And it's acceptable for most people.

Maybe the effect on deeds was accidental, maybe not, however he provided a solution and in my eyes he did not even draw back on the agreement that the deed would automatically maintain the lamps. Back then perma lights were the best solution, because fast and easy. Now he found one that is in his eyes more sensible. (Yes, having to supply building mats for the maintenance would make just as much sense)

And don't even start on how he left that exploit in for so long that he should make it a feature and in the same breath demand that he should focus on the big things and postpone the small stuff for later. Well, this was "later" for the lamps.

New players won't have giant deed, or maintain long public roads, The citizen type will simply join a village and not care much and the hermit will be happy filling his lantern and three porch lights with tar.

The people that are qqing about how they have no time to fill lamps because they have deeds on three servers are bothering the most. In a game like Wurm, it feels weird to me that you are even able to run a one man show of that size. You should be glad it is possible at all and not complain if it gets slightly more difficult, the time you choose to spend sailing is probably several times as long as the one you need to fill your lamps.

I still have the opinion that the changes were good each apart. There just wasn't enough.

The things that are missing the most are different sources for oil, like tar refining or grain grinding and methods to light offdeed, like giving tower guards or courier spirits the abbility to use oil barrels.

[ReaverKane 363]

A different BSB.. different tar. Some dug, some produced.

Also, below as event log shows: examine on one of each, and attempted combine result.

(The produced tar was only from a few days ago when I needed some steel for my dredge)

I also have two different tars, but i'm positive the second type dropped from killing that giant wurm epic mobs that were spawning on freedom a while back. Maybe yours is the same but you never noticed it till now?

Let's look at some arguments people keep throwing around:

First please reread Rolf's Post.

He did not advocate the use of oil at all and he did not nerf the lamps because of that. So people posting alternative uses for oil is utterly pointless.

He fixed the lamps to get rid off an exploit and simply stated that that would increase the use of oil. He also stated that it would be too much for most people and that he would work on solution for it which he delivered. And it's acceptable for most people.

Maybe the effect on deeds was accidental, maybe not, however he provided a solution and in my eyes he did not even draw back on the agreement that the deed would automatically maintain the lamps. Back then perma lights were the best solution, because fast and easy. Now he found one that is in his eyes more sensible. (Yes, having to supply building mats for the maintenance would make just as much sense)

And don't even start on how he left that exploit in for so long that he should make it a feature and in the same breath demand that he should focus on the big things and postpone the small stuff for later. Well, this was "later" for the lamps.

New players won't have giant deed, or maintain long public roads, The citizen type will simply join a village and not care much and the hermit will be happy filling his lantern and three porch lights with tar.

The people that are qqing about how they have no time to fill lamps because they have deeds on three servers are bothering the most. In a game like Wurm, it feels weird to me that you are even able to run a one man show of that size. You should be glad it is possible at all and not complain if it gets slightly more difficult, the time you choose to spend sailing is probably several times as long as the one you need to fill your lamps.

I still have the opinion that the changes were good each apart. There just wasn't enough.

The things that are missing the most are different sources for oil, like tar refining or grain grinding and methods to light offdeed, like giving tower guards or courier spirits the abbility to use oil barrels.

As expected there are worries that it will become too much of a chore to keep lamps filled with oil or tar. Now, tar isn’t _really_ supposed to be used in lamps but it will still be possible to use of course since it would be too much of a nerf to remove that. Olive oil finally has the use and value it was supposed to from the very beginning.

I’ve added the possibility to build an “oil barrel†which will hold huge amounts of olive oil. If you keep a barrel on deed the guards will use the oil within to fill your street lamps. Guards can only deal with olive oil though so you can’t fill it with tar.

I also added the possibility to build armour stand and bow rack. The models are lacking for those as well but they will arrive eventually.

I just had to restart the Epic servers for another reason so they received this update and can try it out a bit before the other servers which will be restarted tomorrow.

View the full article

There, its bold for you.

No one said people are running a one man show, although its quite possible, so what? People pay more for wurm than you do, should they be penalized for that?

No offense, but your post sounds more like a person jealous of those who have bigger deeds than anything else. Also, that thing about supply materials for maintenance, i'd like to see your reaction if it was actually implemented. Having to make bricks and planks often enough to keep stuff repaired would be so great. Also, of course, there's the tiny issue of Wurm running out of money and closing down, since deed upkeep is one of the two biggest sources of money for Wurm.

[Tinkerer 107]

I also have two different tars, but i'm positive the second type dropped from killing that giant wurm epic mobs that were spawning on freedom a while back. Maybe yours is the same but you never noticed it till now?

Definitely not from any mobs. But as KaiH posted, looks like 'tar' changed slightly on the server and the more recent tar from my charcoal piles didn't match the tar I had sitting around from before the change. Wonder what was changed about tar though hehe..

@Keldun, only one thing I would mention: "So people posting alternative uses for oil is utterly pointless". I don't think anyone was suggesting them to be 'alternate' uses.. but rather, 'additional' ones, so as to make olive oil more useful.

[ReaverKane 363]

Yeah, probably that's why for you... But i do know i had 2 types from those mobs.

[yetian 86]

I did have a mad idea.

/>http://wurmonline.uservoice.com/forums/12046-wurmonline/suggestions/2977693-ability-to-buy-a-deed-worker-in-addition-to-a-spir

Trying to think of an option that might be better on coast instead of having to pay 1s for a guard if you have 1 lamp. It's not perfect but remember you all have votes on the uservoice site.

[ReaverKane 363]

I did have a mad idea.

http://wurmonline.us...ition-to-a-spir

Trying to think of an option that might be better on coast instead of having to pay 1s for a guard if you have 1 lamp. It's not perfect but remember you all have votes on the uservoice site.

I had thought about this too, but abandoned the idea, i mean having to pay for something just to light lamps would be excessive (even if its less). But adding some extra functions like the bs repairs you mentioned would probably make it worth it.

[Kraljtatov 34]

Once we're able to put tar oil into oil barrels I don't believe we'll need any more changes, especially at the rate tar can be processed.