Even More Oil Denerfing

[York 16]

Frankly I think this is the pot calling the kettle black. You, and a couple of others here, seem to be so dissatisfied with the way the game is now that you agree with EVERY change Rolf makes reguardless of how stupid or unpopular it it. Then you troll, insult, & generally try to brow beat those who disagree with you into shutting up and going away.

I'd suggest that it's YOU who hates the game and who should consider finding a new one to play.

The anger is strong with this one.

But seriously, theres no need to take it so personally, My comments were not aimed directly at you, nor was I insulting anyone but rather posting observations. Please try to read what I post instead of perceiving it to be something completely different.

My recent posts have had a running theme, there is way too much complaining on these forums and asking why, when we are all here of our own free will, isnt unexpected. Wurm is a deep and engrossing game with literally hundreds of activites to perform, filling lamps is such an incredibly small part of that, that when players start threatening to quit the game over it, its get abit silly, or when people start claiming its totally destroyed the game, again its an over-reaction. Its fair to assume that the lamps are not the problem in many of these cases but an overall dis-satisfaction with the game as a whole, hence my previous post in which I certainly didnt start telling people to go find anonther game to play, I said and I quote 'If you hate the game, why do you play?' Its a question, not a demand.

So I'm probably more outspoken about these over-reactions than most but im not insulting anyone nor have I personally attacked anyone, there is a big difference between making personal insults or attacks and making general observations about posts. On a side note, personally I think if any potential new player decided to stop by and have a peek at these forums they would probably be asking themselves the same question. Why on earth are people raging over lamps!

Just to add, trolls dont add anything to a debate, they just rage, complain and bait. or if perceived a certain way you can consider everything i wrote above to be translated into 'trololol'. But to be more specific to what you accused me of:

Then you troll, insult, & generally try to brow beat those who disagree with everything (fixed that for you, your welcome ) into shutting up

Wouldn't that be more of a good troll? a positive troll, a hero troll! like Shrek!

Edited June 27, 2012 by York

[Miretta 1,415]

So I'm probably more outspoken about these over-reactions than most but im not insulting anyone nor have I personally attacked anyone, there is a big difference between making personal insults or attacks and making general observations about posts. On a side note, personally I think if any potential new player decided to stop by and have a peek at these forums they would probably be asking themselves the same question. Why on earth are people raging over lamps!

would like to see what you think about my ideas about that above

and btw im not sure if lamps is really a "small" problem....for most people it's just decoration and you could easily just put your gamma up, if it's about seeing inside caves and such, but still they were used at large projects that are a problem and kinda useless now, cause your own lantern isnt lightening a while tunnel passage...

and I personally think it's not those lamps people are raging about, but the sudden and completely not needed and without any forward information change thats made by rolf, like so many times before and people maybe just fear, that he will do this even more.

and I honestly think, that this "sudden changes without real explanation just to make the game harder and alot more grind" would be truly a reason to quit, cause you can't say if next week, your skills are starting decaying, after you have worked so long and hard for it....or walls are falling down, because he suddenly changed the deed mechanics.

I'm not saying he will do this, but there is no reason for us or them to believe otherwise...cause he have proven alot of times, what he has been capable off and therefore (even if some people says that games are senseless anyway) it would make every effort you put into the game senseless.....cause maybe next week, it's gone or nerfed at a rate, that you can't really use it anymore, except you spend alot MORE time into it....(in our case, making lamps, collecting olive oil or tar and planting them is already an effort)

so I may ask you, is it really about lamps?

[York 16]

I think your right, it is about alot more than just lamps. I understand what your saying Miretta that certain changes may create uncertainty but that can be said of anything, my posts havent been about people like yourself who offer a debate and civil conversation and your not threatening to quit the game over lamps that ive noticed.

It more than lamps, suppose I found a cause because I was pretty disheartened by the significant amount of negativity on everything Rolf seems to do, even when he makes changed based on good feedback, it just continues regardless so I spoke out against it, so far ive had 2 personal attacks and insults aimed at myself but i wont stop speaking out about unconstructive QQ posts.

When Rolf first announced these changes, at first glance i thought it was a good idea, then someone posted about how much olives and trees would be needed, so i and others suggested ideas for a compromise, and thats exactly what we got. But at the same time I always thought, if it doesnt change then ill just use tar, its not seasonal, you need hardly any of it to fill a lamp and there is no timer other than walking around your deed, personally I quite like walking around my deed and seeing what other people are up to, the main point being, was there is an easy alternative but none of the unconstructiuve QQ posts would even mention tar, and when you pointed out that tar was an alternative, they completely ignored it and continued complaining.

Some points were brought up about having 200+ lamps on deed, imo thats excessive. Our deed is 100x60 which is a modest size and we have no intentions of having that many lamps, I can understand the problem with canals and other community areas, people have suggested having designed GM areas, or boat lights but Wurm is a dangerous place, once you get out of your comfort zone (im talking spider at you in dark hole lol) then yes its scary, if you die its a pain but its also exciting and makes you be careful the next time.

Are lamps a chore? yes they are, does it create an oil market, yes it does, could it potentially create a personal light market? probably yes. The economy is vibrant in Wurm, its makes sense to keep encouraging that.

[kazkid 23]

Fuel is not an infinite resource in real life. Nobody benefits from it - it's a realism change.

Nobody benefits? BS....if nobody benefits then why are some going around with a 'mission' to cut every avail olive tree......if nobody benefits more than another, why make it require a skill only the few have........if nobody benefits, why base it on a resource that is only available a few days a month screwing the casual player.......if nobody benefits, why will only on deed or fenced olive groves be able to use their barrel........if nobody benefits, then what is the resistance to refining tar, at least with tar refining it is a resource avail to all....would require a new skill and therefore be an equal playing field since NOBODY has the skill yet...

Wake up....Using olives benefits (and gives a market cornering potential) to a few while screwing the majority!

[Miretta 1,415]

I think your right, it is about alot more than just lamps. I understand what your saying Miretta that certain changes may create uncertainty but that can be said of anything, my posts havent been about people like yourself who offer a debate and civil conversation and your not threatening to quit the game over lamps that ive noticed.

It more than lamps, suppose I found a cause because I was pretty disheartened by the significant amount of negativity on everything Rolf seems to do, even when he makes changed based on good feedback, it just continues regardless so I spoke out against it, so far ive had 2 personal attacks and insults aimed at myself but i wont stop speaking out about unconstructive QQ posts.

When Rolf first announced these changes, at first glance i thought it was a good idea, then someone posted about how much olives and trees would be needed, so i and others suggested ideas for a compromise, and thats exactly what we got. But at the same time I always thought, if it doesnt change then ill just use tar, its not seasonal, you need hardly any of it to fill a lamp and there is no timer other than walking around your deed, personally I quite like walking around my deed and seeing what other people are up to, the main point being, was there is an easy alternative but none of the unconstructiuve QQ posts would even mention tar, and when you pointed out that tar was an alternative, they completely ignored it and continued complaining.

Some points were brought up about having 200+ lamps on deed, imo thats excessive. Our deed is 100x60 which is a modest size and we have no intentions of having that many lamps, I can understand the problem with canals and other community areas, people have suggested having designed GM areas, or boat lights but Wurm is a dangerous place, once you get out of your comfort zone (im talking spider at you in dark hole lol) then yes its scary, if you die its a pain but its also exciting and makes you be careful the next time.

Are lamps a chore? yes they are, does it create an oil market, yes it does, could it potentially create a personal light market? probably yes. The economy is vibrant in Wurm, its makes sense to keep encouraging that.

well then I simply hope, that rolf wont make olive oil as "the only" lamp ressource, because he mentioned something like that

I think I would die XD because i dont intend to make an olive forest behind my home

[ReaverKane 363]

would like to see what you think about my ideas about that above

and btw im not sure if lamps is really a "small" problem....for most people it's just decoration and you could easily just put your gamma up, if it's about seeing inside caves and such, but still they were used at large projects that are a problem and kinda useless now, cause your own lantern isnt lightening a while tunnel passage...

and I personally think it's not those lamps people are raging about, but the sudden and completely not needed and without any forward information change thats made by rolf, like so many times before and people maybe just fear, that he will do this even more.

and I honestly think, that this "sudden changes without real explanation just to make the game harder and alot more grind" would be truly a reason to quit, cause you can't say if next week, your skills are starting decaying, after you have worked so long and hard for it....or walls are falling down, because he suddenly changed the deed mechanics.

I'm not saying he will do this, but there is no reason for us or them to believe otherwise...cause he have proven alot of times, what he has been capable off and therefore (even if some people says that games are senseless anyway) it would make every effort you put into the game senseless.....cause maybe next week, it's gone or nerfed at a rate, that you can't really use it anymore, except you spend alot MORE time into it....(in our case, making lamps, collecting olive oil or tar and planting them is already an effort)

so I may ask you, is it really about lamps?

Yup, you're right its not JUST about the lamps. Its about the out of nowhere "fixes" that break the game.

Its about an apparent scheme to force deed owners to hire guards.

Its about removing potential to one of the best aesthetic features on wurm (and wurm needs some eye-candy).

All this for the sake of some pal or Rolf that had lots of olives and nothing to do with them.

Nobody benefits? BS....if nobody benefits then why are some going around with a 'mission' to cut every avail olive tree......if nobody benefits more than another, why make it require a skill only the few have........if nobody benefits, why base it on a resource that is only available a few days a month screwing the casual player.......if nobody benefits, why will only on deed or fenced olive groves be able to use their barrel........if nobody benefits, then what is the resistance to refining tar, at least with tar refining it is a resource avail to all....would require a new skill and therefore be an equal playing field since NOBODY has the skill yet...

Wake up....Using olives benefits (and gives a market cornering potential) to a few while screwing the majority!

You went and replied on the worse part of the quote. Playing the realism card on a assumed FANTASY game. Is like playing Exodia on a Poker game.

well then I simply hope, that rolf wont make olive oil as "the only" lamp ressource, because he mentioned something like that

I think I would die XD because i dont intend to make an olive forest behind my home

That was his intention, but even Rolf knows he can go only so far each time. Give it a year or so, he'll first let this nerf fade out of consciousness, and then he'll nerf the rest.

But be assured that all the actual bugs with lighting (like stepping into some areas in caves cancel out the light) will not be fixed.

Edited June 27, 2012 by ReaverKane

[York 16]

See what I mean, nothing constructive in the above post at all, its all just QQ.

Down with negativity!! *fist pump*

[Miretta 1,415]

See what I mean, nothing constructive in the above post at all, its all just QQ.

Down with negativity!! *fist pump*

not only negativity, but also some not proven points as arguments *rollseyes*

Go for constructive critics !! *raises hands*

[Pryath 181]

The whole Lamp/Olive change is simply madness, and for the first time since I joined, I am questioning if its all worth it.

Quite simply Rolf screwed this up, there is no other way of putting it.

I'd wish he'd admit he got it wrong, and change it back, he'd earn a lot more respect that way (we all make mistakes).

Edited June 27, 2012 by Pryath

[Amber 337]

Calling valid objections to this horrid change QQing or crying just shows how one sided you are about change. Some of us, dare I say the majority of us - see the poll results - realize that this was a totally unnecessary nerf to a feature that wasn't broken. No softening of the nerf is acceptable to me. Nothing less than a complete reversal will do IMO so, sorry, but I'll continue to state the reasons WHY I feel it's a bad change & I won't be making silly suggestions as to how to make it a better nerf. It needs to be reverted to the way it was, plain & simple.

Oh, and I'll stop making "personal attacks" on you as soon as you stop making them on other ppl who's opinion is different from yours.

See what I mean, nothing constructive in the above post at all, its all just QQ.

Down with negativity!! *fist pump*

[Ayes 3,715]

Calling valid objections to this horrid change QQing or crying just shows how one sided you are about change. Some of us, dare I say the majority of us - see the poll results - realize that this was a totally unnecessary nerf to a feature that wasn't broken. No softening of the nerf is acceptable to me. Nothing less than a complete reversal will do IMO so, sorry, but I'll continue to state the reasons WHY I feel it's a bad change & I won't be making silly suggestions as to how to make it a better nerf. It needs to be reverted to the way it was, plain & simple.

Oh, and I'll stop making "personal attacks" on you as soon as you stop making them on other ppl who's opinion is different from yours.

Amber, you are correct about this York character. Some time ago in response to this topic I pointed out to him that he should stop insulting players who responded with objections to this olive oil change:

Look York, and others of your mindset, people who see problems with changes to existing features of the game have every right to make posts with their reasoning for objecting to these changes. Your demeaning characterizations of them as causing "unforgivable uproar", "must commit suicide before the end arrives knee jerk reaction", "a vessel to vent frustrations" for doing this is totally off the point as to the changes in question and does nothing to point out as to why the changes are benificial or negative; therefore contributes nothing to the topic at hand. I would suggest you and those of like mind refrain from your personal attacks and stick to the topic at hand.

=Ayes=

But as you have noted, he persists in labeling people who object to this change with negative connotations in some sort of misguided attempt to stifle their objections to this change, whether they be reasonably presented in a concise manner or in a somewhat heated reaction to this unneeded change to street lamp functioning. I now find it best that when I see his name attached to a response, to just scroll down to the next post to avoid taking notice of his further abuse of people who voice (post) opinions contrary to his own.

Beyond that, I agree with your most recent responses in this thread stating your objections to this change in a manner that stays on point and points out the negative effects as a result of its implimentation.

=Ayes=

[Reylaark 1,100]

Change or no change I can't really comment on, above my paygrade...

but in dealing with what currently is with regard to community driven projects like canals and tunnels, might it be a good idea to keep a barrel of tar (or whatever fuel winds may bring) at each entrance? Those using the tunnel who have the time and inclination could contribute to its upkeep by lighting/filling lights as they travel through. The gesture would presumably be good for a few days.

Also, regarding rather unfortunate and unscrupulous business practices of destruction for the sake of monopoly... while I understand not the most convenient solution, might it be feasible to arrange for bulk import of olive oil from other continents to flood and depreciate the market rendering all the time spent destroying completely useless and unprofitable? There must be others willing to forgo short term financial gain for long term principle.

Hope these ideas won't be construed as an attempt to appease unwanted changes or suggesting a permanent solution... merely an attempt at temporary adaptation for the betterment of what appears to be considerable hardship and ire.

[BobMcKnob 46]

but in dealing with what currently is with regard to community driven projects like canals and tunnels, might it be a good idea to keep a barrel of tar (or whatever fuel winds may bring) at each entrance? Those using the tunnel who have the time and inclination could contribute to its upkeep by lighting/filling lights as they travel through. The gesture would presumably be good for a few days.

The only problem with this is that the majority of people are not only lazy, but inherently selfish. Most ###### cases that happened in public are never charged because everyone around thought "someone else will call and report it."

And where does that leave the poor defenseless canal? Bleeding and possibly dead in a back alley somewhere.

[Reylaark 1,100]

Edited so as to not perpetuate.

That is truly unfortunate and most horrific imagery.

I hope whatever situation you are going through leading you to such thoughts improves, and that adequate help is available.

All the best.

[Keldun 335]

I have planted about 80+ lamps on the new highways, roads and in mines in my area. What am I supposed to do now? I did it with assumption I'll refil and repair them once in a long while, now I have to farm 30kg of olive oil every month?

I usually don't mind changes, even if they mess up completely my plans, even if they end up wasting days of my playtime... but with this change, I simply don't see the point!

Olives not useful? Tons of items are not useful, besides who cares if an item is useful, players care if they get a new feature with new item... this doesn't add any new feature, just redesigns how you get lamps lit and maintained, while adding problems like mine above.

Or maybe is it some idea to nerf light itself? Yeah because it stops hostile spawns... oh wait wrong game.

You apparently misunderstood something. I would expect your highway lamps and most on of your mine lamps are not on deed? In that case using olive oil would be pointless.

Furthermore you actually benefit from these patches, because you would have had to refill your lamps twice a week, now you only need to fill them every two weeks.

(the method where offdeed lights stayed lit was always considered an exploit)

Edited June 27, 2012 by Keldun

[Asciana 303]

"now I have to farm 30kg of olive oil every month"

No. you can continue performing 30 tar actions...

[Wort 67]

He added something, he got feedback, many many people suggested that lamps should burn longer, many people suggested that oil weight should be increased in some form. He listened, he implemented a change that is a good compromise, he wanted oil to be valuable, yet the only suggestions I've seen so far is adding them in cooking, everyone eats meat + 1 veg.

He "added" something, he got overwhelmingly negative feedback, and a couple suggestions that a few others agreed with. I would predict that this change will have more of a negative impact on lamp value than it will a positive impact on olive oil value.

[Farmerbob 369]

Fuel is not an infinite resource in real life. Nobody benefits from it - it's a realism change.

Time is a valuable part of my real life. Time is the most valuable commodity in Wurm. The absolute last thing that Wurm needs is another time sink.

**Edit for clarity, since the above is just a sound bite, really.

One might say that the entire game is a time sink. It is. All games are time sinks. But people play games for enjoyment. Most people get enjoyment in sandbox games from building things, or destroying them. Not pressing olives to keep the deed lit.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Farmerbob

[Klaa 4,872]

The state of lamps was definitely in need of fixing. For example one could heat up a lamp, plant it, and never have to fuel... ever. Ill admit I used it, knowing full well it was silly.

Lights never going out while ondeed was almost as silly, especially without refuelling (apparently it was the seven nights of Hanakuh year round). This led to deeds having hundreds of lamps, lit up like the Las Vegas strip.

In some ways sure the initial nerf is a bit much; however, Rolf has been providing means to compensate. His usual practice is to tweak instead of outright removing. It pretty much requires outrageous cheating for him to completely rip out a system. The lockpicking fiasco still irks me everytime I think of it.

The one olive change I like most is having a central container, which the "guards" use to supply the lamps on deed. Although the bumper crop in olives is certainly a close contender.

However, it would be nice to be able to use other means of mass-producing fuel. For example, Oracle's suggestion for crude refining of tar into low ql oil. Another possibility that just occured to me is whale hunting, the big demand in that industry was lighting.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Klaa

[Evilvision 301]

Well I have posted in a few places on here that I can go either way with this change for on deed lamps. I can understand people being frustrated with on deed lamps now because it was a perk to having a deed, however I see a lot of people complaining about tunnels,caves,highways. Lamps were never intended to stay lit off deed. The fact that lamps have been burning off deed on highways, caves with no fuel and staying on 24/7 without lighting them was a bug introduced at some point. I remember quite vividly having to turn the streetlamps on each night when I was working at a public forge outside Newtown when I first started. Then at some point people started stating in Kchat, hey plant the lamp while its glowing hot and it will burn all the time and the rest is history.

[Beneldorla 13]

I admit not reading all the post before! I love having more use for my favorite skill - Forestry.

But just curious if this here is a bug or an intended 'feature':

When you fail to pick olives you before always got dmg on the ql 1 olive. You get same now, but only on one of the olives from that tree, rest of the ql 1 have no dmg, is this intended?

[ReaverKane 363]

Well I have posted in a few places on here that I can go either way with this change for on deed lamps. I can understand people being frustrated with on deed lamps now because it was a perk to having a deed, however I see a lot of people complaining about tunnels,caves,highways. Lamps were never intended to stay lit off deed. The fact that lamps have been burning off deed on highways, caves with no fuel and staying on 24/7 without lighting them was a bug introduced at some point. I remember quite vividly having to turn the streetlamps on each night when I was working at a public forge outside Newtown when I first started. Then at some point people started stating in Kchat, hey plant the lamp while its glowing hot and it will burn all the time and the rest is history.

Yeah, but nerfing a deed perk because of that bug isn't the best practice.

[Vedurin 29]

I just hope that lights will still turn on / off by themselves on nightfall / daybreak.

It would indeed add realism if you had to turn them on / off for yourself, but the annoying kind of realism. It sure is good to have things realistic, but only as long as they're being fun.

Big deeds and projects take a lot of time already. Who would want to use 10, 20 .. maybe 30 minutes to walk the entire deed only for refilling the lamps. There are a lot more time consuming and more interesting things to do. =)

[headhunter 100]

At night Wurm is not the same Its all dark and gloomy...Slightly depressing if I'm honest, even with my Ice blue lantern

[picommander 13]

That's interesting, for me nothing has changed. While I'm currently pressing olives and filling my tube there was no oil removed from it so far and lamps and lights are as always. I wonder if these new changes are already active or are my lamps still using the remaining tar?