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axeblade346

An Idea On Hording

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Last night on IRC there was another long to and fro about hording of animals.

My idea to get rid of this always going argument is actually already semi in the game.

(Note is will need some refinement)

If you right click a horse there is already a management option. So why not make animal ownership papers.

Basic system.

Lets limit this to horse , cow and bull and others

Animals = Horse, cow or Bull

Other = dog , pig .... (aka non-agro mobs)

This will exclude there pets

An Unowned animal will have a set Life span and a owned animals will be double that.

Grooming an animal will give a % change to lengthen the amount of days a owned animal lives.

Ownership

To get ownership of a unowned animal will be - lead it then right click take ownership.

And any animal should get a "This <animal type> belongs to <name>" or a "This <animal type> has no owner" . (Will make it easy to get your horse back)

For PVP, If you or a own member killed the owner of the horse in the last 15 mins. You can take over ownership of the horse (not a stealing action).

Amount

A F2P can`t own any papers until he or she has had premium once.

(they can`t ride a horse a command a cart anyway,)

If you loose premium you cant get any more animal papers.

(allows them to have animals but not on load of alts just to horde animals)

A P2P player is allowed to own 3 Animals and 1 more at 20AH (or higher)

Allows them for a breeding set and 1 baby (and later 1 more)

A mayor is allowed to own 1 extra animal per P2P town member,

Anyone who has 50+AH is allowed to own a set amount of extra animals.

And a little neat function would be that you don't need a rope to lead a animal you own.

(Don`t know if its possible to allow a time delay after getting of to ride directly)

Pets are excluded if the are not a animal.

Also add a set amount of Other per area and a deed doubles that amount.

And here is the Best anti-hording part. Only owned animals can be bred and the only way to own an animal is to get one wild or get it traded to you, and to get rid of an owned horse it must be traded or have to die. (It will be neat if you get a message saying Potpie has died form her spider bites)

(I can just hear my Mayor screaming whats the houses name so I can find The Writ)

Please don`t flame about hording as there is enough other thread to do that in.

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You obviously have not tried to get skill in AH. You need a lot of animals to get anywhere in a decent time, not hundreds, but at least tens of pairs. I personally keep about 60 animals and after almost 3 years still am only at 67 AH. Even if you groomed all day you would take forever with just 3 animals. And the papers would really get in the way of dealing with them too, not to mention completely killing what little market there is for horses now. I suggest you go raise some livestock yourself and then you will see how many holes this idea has.

The problem is Rolf's incessantly forcing a grind to get skill, and changing horses so folks need to keep more around as they can so easily get killed now. Not every skill should take years to be good at. Make AH easy to get skill, horses harder to kill, and make them live a proper lifetime (IRL horses live 12-18 years) and hoarding will go down to 0.

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You obviously have not tried to get skill in AH. You need a lot of animals to get anywhere in a decent time, not hundreds, but at least tens of pairs. I personally keep about 60 animals and after almost 3 years still am only at 67 AH. Even if you groomed all day you would take forever with just 3 animals. And the papers would really get in the way of dealing with them too, not to mention completely killing what little market there is for horses now. I suggest you go raise some livestock yourself and then you will see how many holes this idea has.

The problem is Rolf's incessantly forcing a grind to get skill, and changing horses so folks need to keep more around as they can so easily get killed now. Not every skill should take years to be good at. Make AH easy to get skill, horses harder to kill, and make them live a proper lifetime (IRL horses live 12-18 years) and hoarding will go down to 0.

If everybody kept 60 animals nobody would have anywhere near 60 animals. while i'll agree AH shoudl be easier to skill people will always breed horses even if you don't need them for any reason just to do it. to see what comes out and to make themselves feel "richer". limits must be imposed requireing more work for more animals

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The OP doesn't seem to have much understanding about keeping and breeding animals for numerous purposes - especially horses.

In order to not have problems with in-breeding a player needs multiple breeding pairs of horses just for keeping up a few horses for your own use for an extended period of time. While I don't breed horses for sale myself, I'd think those that do have many breeding pairs - even more so if they are trying to maintain a stock of various colors and potentially mixes of traits - speed trait horses vs more durable horses used when fighting. Even someone who isn't breeding to sell very well might keep a riding horse and a fighting horse in addition to breeders.

If your trying to produce leather for tailoring it's going to be damn slow going breeding one at a time and 'hoping' you get a hide. :blink:

Milking? Do I really gotta walk ya through the math? Really? 1 Bull, 1 Cow and a calf - you could only milk one of those. :rolleyes:

Cooked meat/Animal Fat/Fur/etc. - Rolf better implement Snickers Bars - we're gonna be here awhile again.

V already covered skilling up AH - animal parts are very much needed to skill up Alchemy(unless your convoluted thought process is the only 'true' way to get those should be by hunting)

If everybody kept 60 animals...

Blatant strawman argument is blatant. With several hundred available pursuits in this game it isn't vaguely reasonable to use that as a point of discussion.

For someone actively working with animals 40-60(combined horses, cows, deer, pigs, chickens, and/or wild animals, etc) animals is completely normal.

"If" there's really an actual problem, expending energy justifying and requesting the artificial global limitations be increased would be far more productive than convoluted animal licensing schemes that make no sense regarding how animals and their products are utilized within Wurm's sandbox environment.

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By all accounts every server in Wurm is underpopulated. If the domestic animal count is hitting it's cap, then what kind of ratios are we talking about? How many animals would I be entitled to own, if the server was at max population and everyone owned an equal number of them? Does that ratio take into account keeping spares for breeding without inbreeding bad traits, losses due to mob attacks, breeding stock for leather gain, meat, cheese.. Did Rolf intend us to have 1 cow each? 1 horse?

I don't feel this has been properly laid out to us to judge if this is an issue with the playerbase 'hoarding' or if the server cap needs to be raised to meet realistic goals.

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You obviously have not tried to get skill in AH. You need a lot of animals to get anywhere in a decent time, not hundreds, but at least tens of pairs. I personally keep about 60 animals and after almost 3 years still am only at 67 AH. Even if you groomed all day you would take forever with just 3 animals. And the papers would really get in the way of dealing with them too, not to mention completely killing what little market there is for horses now. I suggest you go raise some livestock yourself and then you will see how many holes this idea has.

The problem is Rolf's incessantly forcing a grind to get skill, and changing horses so folks need to keep more around as they can so easily get killed now. Not every skill should take years to be good at. Make AH easy to get skill, horses harder to kill, and make them live a proper lifetime (IRL horses live 12-18 years) and hoarding will go down to 0.

The OP doesn't seem to have much understanding about keeping and breeding animals for numerous purposes - especially horses.

In order to not have problems with in-breeding a player needs multiple breeding pairs of horses just for keeping up a few horses for your own use for an extended period of time. While I don't breed horses for sale myself, I'd think those that do have many breeding pairs - even more so if they are trying to maintain a stock of various colors and potentially mixes of traits - speed trait horses vs more durable horses used when fighting. Even someone who isn't breeding to sell very well might keep a riding horse and a fighting horse in addition to breeders.

If your trying to produce leather for tailoring it's going to be damn slow going breeding one at a time and 'hoping' you get a hide. :blink:

Milking? Do I really gotta walk ya through the math? Really? 1 Bull, 1 Cow and a calf - you could only milk one of those. :rolleyes:

Cooked meat/Animal Fat/Fur/etc. - Rolf better implement Snickers Bars - we're gonna be here awhile again.

V already covered skilling up AH - animal parts are very much needed to skill up Alchemy(unless your convoluted thought process is the only 'true' way to get those should be by hunting)

Blatant strawman argument is blatant. With several hundred available pursuits in this game it isn't vaguely reasonable to use that as a point of discussion.

For someone actively working with animals 40-60(combined horses, cows, deer, pigs, chickens, and/or wild animals, etc) animals is completely normal.

"If" there's really an actual problem, expending energy justifying and requesting the artificial global limitations be increased would be far more productive than convoluted animal licensing schemes that make no sense regarding how animals and their products are utilized within Wurm's sandbox environment.

-1 to the op

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I didn't read past the OP. Big -1 because you have not made any mention of compensating players for the drastic reduction in the number of animals you will be able to keep.

If you where to combine this with these I'd support it: removal of inbreeding, double if not triple time reduction in the breeding window, double if not triple increase in butchered goods, a better way for use to grind AH or prehaps a 20x increase in skill gain per a groom action.

This idea is essentially a fixed cap system that I have wanted for some time but in order for it to work we need compensation for the drastic nerfs it will bring. Further, reducing domestic animals with fixed caps per play must be balance with increases so that breeders and butcher/cooks/leather-workers can be in the same position there where before the nerf.

Example. I want to butcher at least10 horses a week. Thus, I need at least 20 to make that. With production boosts, I would only need 4 to do the same thing, because my 1 male and 3 females can produced the same as the 20 with faster breeding and increased butchered resources.

The whole animals system is a mistake. Taking a limited resources that affects all players and implementing mechanics that encourage players to keep more is never going to work. Make animals resources more efficient and implement changes that reward (NOT NERF!) players for keeping less.

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To be honest with new games on the horizon and a good chunk of the playerbase being folks that have played a long time why is there a need to keep adding more hassles to simple features like having a horse to ride, cows to milk or own perhaps because that makes you happy when not getting RSI working up carpentry or whatever, I swear to god at times the playerbase here is more invasive than the government thesedays, I hope soon we can all get lawyer alts and sue one another over having too many animals, fences that block a deeds view of Dragon Fang or god knows what else.

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To be honest with new games on the horizon and a good chunk of the playerbase being folks that have played a long time why is there a need to keep adding more hassles to simple features like having a horse to ride, cows to milk or own perhaps because that makes you happy when not getting RSI working up carpentry or whatever, I swear to god at times the playerbase here is more invasive than the government thesedays, I hope soon we can all get lawyer alts and sue one another over having too many animals, fences that block a deeds view of Dragon Fang or god knows what else.

Your cow packed the grass in its pen and destroyed my gorgeous vista! You can can expect to hear from my legal-Alt, Gloria Alred! I'm taking your dirt patch loving self to the cleaners!

Edited by Joanavon

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By all accounts every server in Wurm is underpopulated. If the domestic animal count is hitting it's cap, then what kind of ratios are we talking about?

Here is the issue. We want many many players on each server, Exodus has 200 players on at certain times, so I estimate there's around 400 players on that server alone. The animal caps are divided into agros, nonagros, and livestock. Livestock is obviously the one that's going to be most desired, kept, and bred. This one needs a flexible cap along with the playerbase. If Rolf could give us a number of "intended" amount of animals (in all kinds, agros, livestock, non agros) then we can have a look at what the current cap is, and the current playerbase, and see if the issue lies in there.

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Yes and no...

In order to not have problems with in-breeding a player needs multiple breeding pairs of horses just for keeping up a few horses for your own use for an extended period of time. While I don't breed horses for sale myself, I'd think those that do have many breeding pairs - even more so if they are trying to maintain a stock of various colors and potentially mixes of traits - speed trait horses vs more durable horses used when fighting. Even someone who isn't breeding to sell very well might keep a riding horse and a fighting horse in addition to breeders.

If your trying to produce leather for tailoring it's going to be damn slow going breeding one at a time and 'hoping' you get a hide. :blink:

Milking? Do I really gotta walk ya through the math? Really? 1 Bull, 1 Cow and a calf - you could only milk one of those. :rolleyes:

Cooked meat/Animal Fat/Fur/etc. - Rolf better implement Snickers Bars - we're gonna be here awhile again.

V already covered skilling up AH - animal parts are very much needed to skill up Alchemy(unless your convoluted thought process is the only 'true' way to get those should be by hunting)

If I was allowed to re-design AH to stop hoarding I would do this:

Horses: 'Care for' option should allow players to keep enough horses alive forever to ride, cart and breed for sale if they wish, meat, leather and alchemy items should remain at the current level.

Bulls, Cows, Pigs etc: Severely increased meat, milk, hide, alchemy production per butchering/milking. Higher skill results in greater quantity of products as well as QL. Higher skilled players will not need a greater quantity of animals. No In-breeding penalties.

All Domestic Animals: decreased timer on re-grooming, more opportunity to increase AH skill per animal. Multiple grooming actions add-up (accumilate), so animals can spend more time untended before becoming diseased, if player is going away for a week. Inversly, Increased need for grooming, so if you have too many animals, even if you do it once every two days, they will eventually become diseased.

If keeping horses for transport, less need to breed, if your best horses live forever.

If breeding horses for sale or fighting, less pressure on cap from people who need meat, leather, milk alchemy items etc. But you will need to spend more effort looking after your horses if you have many breeding sets, ie. less people will become Horse Breeders (I feel there is already more Quality Horses in Wurm than there are players).

If breeding animals for butchering, less animals required for same production output. Skill in AH still needed to get required production (no easy rides).

This way, maybe caps per player will become unneccessary, because players would not need to horde animals to attain objectives, problem fixed. Hording animals will only result in an oversupply of goods, will not help you skill any quicker.

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How about removing incentives for hoarding instead of trying to make it harder? Right now there's so many things in game that pretty much force you to keep a lot of animals (you need a lot of them for skill gain, you need a lot of them to gain horses with good traits at a nice pace. You need extra to compensate for losses)

For example:

HA skill gain: Only X times a day like praying and meditation. Same speed as praying sounds reasonable? This way you don't need massive herds to get the most skill.

Traits: Throw the randomness out of that system entirely, let people choose what traits the animal gets on birth. 0 Traits from 1-40 skill. 1 trait from 40-80 skill and 2 traits at 80+. Rework the traits so there's 5-10 good choices and as few bad/useless ones as possible. Make it so there aren't any no-brainer combinations.

Freedom server only, change aggro vs horse: Aggros will still target horses as now, but they won't kill them. Instead they will bring horses down to 30-40% health max. You can only ride on horses that have at least 50% health, if they have less then you get thrown off. This means that you will still lose the advantage of riding on a horse if it gets hurt in battle, but it won't get killed. That way you stop losing horses to aggro creatures.

Horses, carts and server reset: Start keep track of horses that are bound to carts in your database so that a server reset won't set them loose, causing the player to lose his horses.

Remove inbreeding: This feature just forces people to have more horses for breeding, this bit of realism isn't helping.

Maybe there is more but that's the first things I could think of. I'd imagine most of those would greatly help reduce the need for having many horses, and with the proposed trait system it's not that bad when you have to start over from scratch either. So if you have to go on a vacation or just can't play for some months then it's not that big a problem if all your horses are dead when you return.

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How about removing incentives for hoarding instead of trying to make it harder? Right now there's so many things in game that pretty much force you to keep a lot of animals (you need a lot of them for skill gain, you need a lot of them to gain horses with good traits at a nice pace. You need extra to compensate for losses)

For example:

How about not making easy mode breeding and start killing off the animals not being cared for properly??

I really do not want to see the breeding in this game turned into anything like what you have posted and would rather have it removed completely than see that in game. Sorry that is just the way it is. We have had changes and they do not work because bobby and johnny want some special 'Care For' to make sure they have their 5-6 females live forever. If things have to change get rid of Care For all together and start making disease work in crowded pens faster. Make bad traits cause bad things to happen faster to horses like having a shorter life span per bad trait.

The endless grass change was a step in the right direction btw, you could also make foals take a minimum 21-30 days and that would slow down this barrage of foals as well.

How long is the gestation period of a horse?

'The average is from 340 to 342 days, but there can be a month or more variation. The mare actually has the ability of postponing the birth if she is not comfortable with her surroundings.'

Edited by Uberknot

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If we're going for a realistic gestation period then also give the horses a realistic lifespan. :rolleyes:

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Simply raise the animal limit, its proven that we FREEDOMERS, MOST PLAYERS, like to keep animals...

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If we're going for a realistic gestation period then also give the horses a realistic lifespan. :rolleyes:

We already do upto 7 or 8 forever ponies is more than enough.

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So you are saying that we don't. After all if the lifespan was realistic then each horse would survive around 3 years while right now it's what, 0.5-1 years? Of course when using realistic gestation periods and realistic lifespan then the unrealistic immortal horse thing can be removed. Really no point for that any more when using all that realism. But going only half the way by only using a realistic gestation period but not a realistic lifespan is just weird design. :rolleyes:

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We already do upto 7 or 8 forever ponies is more than enough.

I would rather see a realistic lifspan and gestation, and let the 'Care For' option get dropped completely. Right now without 'Care For' a horse can go through its' life in less than 6 months, or less than 4 Wurm years, while they should live 12-18 years at least.

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Raise the livestock cap, make it harder to take care of masses of animals (maybe easier with higher skills), and increase skillgain. Raising th livestock cap alone and then nerfing AH shortly after will not solve anything. And people, would you please quit worrying about yourselves for a while and think about the longevity of the server? Not trying to be rude, but honestly, the rest of the server isn't going to have their breeding impeded to keep a few of your horses alive.

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Some people just want to have a large herd of whatever and other people need a large herd to do whatever they are trying to do. Rather than adding more limitations to stop players from doing something, effort needs to be made to allow them to do it and fix it so they don't have to do it in the first place.

I still think someone needs to look into a way to make the animals turn into objects. One of the barn suggestions, or a tether animal option which turns them into an item that just stands there and eats until untethered.

A semi related subject, I would like grooming to be added to the rest of the animals.

Edited by Depends

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Some people just want to have a large herd of whatever and other people need a large herd to do whatever they are trying to do. Rather than adding more limitations to stop players from doing something, effort needs to be made to allow them to do it and fix it so they don't have to do it in the first place.

I still think someone needs to look into a way to make the animals turn into objects. One of the barn suggestions, or a tether animal option which turns them into an item that just stands there and eats until untethered.

A semi related subject, I would like grooming to be added to the rest of the animals.

It may not be possible to make animals into objects. As far as the game is concerned, they have aspects more like a player character or NPC than a hammer or boat. That may be part of the problem with giving them papers, one mistake and everyone could have papers, not just the livestock.

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Depends, the game does not need yet another way to run up the animal cap, directly or indirectly; it's already very high and the fact that Rolf added a livestock cap gives some idea as to how bad it really is.

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Depends, the game does not need yet another way to run up the animal cap, directly or indirectly; it's already very high and the fact that Rolf added a livestock cap gives some idea as to how bad it really is.

I don't want to run up the cap. My point was that it is that people already have large amounts for whatever reason. So rather than fight it with odd restrictions that annoy everyone, figure out a way to make it work.

Changes could be made so the people who don't really want large herds but need them for leather, meat, healingcovers, milk, AH grind, or whatever else can use smaller amounts as many people in this thread have mentioned. If that didn't help then we could move on to the next solution.

As far as the turning them into objects thing goes, I don't know. Wasn't sure if somehow turning the movement part of the AI off would reduce the resources needed.

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