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AndreC

So How 'Bout that 'Conomy

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Well, after an interesting conversation in freedom chat today on exodus, I've began to ponder, why prices are so 'low'. Well low for the seller, and high for the buyer.

We seem to have lost the balance between low and high prices, because as we all should know, if everyone wants it and only 1 person can do it, that person makes bank.  If everyone wants it and half of everyone can do it, it's not worth selling.

I think it's simple deflation. Boats used to run you more than the 8s or so they do now, now that more people can make and are willing to make them, on top of those who already have one, and those who think they're STILL to expensive, the market is slim.

Far as I know its a fair economy, and we'll have our regular up and downs like any other economy. Crafters come and go.

So I ask you all. Do you think there is a player-based way we could 'fix' the economy? Any thoughts or opinions are welcome.

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Things that are easy to acquire are cheap, and things hard to acquire are expensive, and .. what was the part that needed fixing again?

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Things that are easy to acquire are cheap, and things hard to acquire are expensive, and .. what was the part that needed fixing again?

^This. Higher ql things = more time input to skilling and in most cases imping.

Although, I get where the OP is coming from, as boats damage rather slowly usually, and where you might go through a 70ql tool in a few weeks of serious use, a 70ql boat will last you at least a year if not more before it even needs a single repair.

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Wurm's economy is very "free market" with the exception of fixed price moneysink items. Simple supply and demand.

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Perhaps boats should not be considered as much of a luxury item in wurm and more like a utilitarian one like a cart. Which would also explain why the demand for them off the market slumped and likely will never return to those levels without Rolfs intervention.

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I think the economy is fine. There's a generally agree'd upon price for most things, with some people who charge more, and some who charge less. I know we got a lot of business with our Bulk Services at Cybertron because we charged less than most people for some things, and the Wurm standard for others.

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Time equals money...

Oh wait! If you make your time cheaper, you get more profit!

Then the other people do...

Then you need to again...

You no longer would have made profit from competition.

New idea, make money.

People copy.

(Repeat to step 2...)

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its like anything else in wurm, supply and demand varies.

When i started all too long ago, just after wurmageddon, the big thing was sheets. it cost a whole silver to get 1 sheet because not very many people had the skill to make them, cotton was somewhat hard to get (no one had much farming skill, and yields were lower then to begin with), and no-one could imp a loom much past 40, but EVERYONE Wanted that bed for sleep bonus.

50QL tools were expensive, even without enchants, because there was like, 2 smiths that had more than 70 skill.

obviously that has changed a bit.

Same thing with mag priests selling strongwall casts. I think i was the first one to sell them publicly, I charged 2 silver a cast, and made a small fortune because people were saving a whole 3 silver over the shaker orbs, and almost no-one else on freedom had a mag priest who was casting. Others saw i was making money doing it, trained up priests, and now its what, about 80c a cast.

its simple skills.  as more people have the skill to do a certain task (make sheets, imp tools to 50, cast strongwall, make boats, etc etc) the price goes down, because there is more competition.

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Wurm Online not Wall Street Online.

well its pretty close hehe

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Wurm is a free market with a demand driven economy.

Since Exodus and Deli have opened up, the prices of cooked meat have slowly plummeted to the point where a cooked meat filet is worth less than a standard cooking ingredient (10i per veggie).

Recently, there was also a change to the amount of lye used up when tanning hides and how much leather comes out of one hide. Due to this change, I would not be surprised if prices of high ql hides/leather and leather products slowly come down over the next few months as supply of leather becomes more abundant.

I also expect the prices of blacksmithing items, weapons, and armours to slowly decline as more players produce these items for personal use, skill grinding and trying to get the rare creations.

Back on topic, as I see it... there is no immediate problem with the wurm economy however thought should be given to hyper-deflation. This is where the price of a commodity in wurm becomes so devalued that it simply becomes so worthless and the only way to earn money off it is to mass-produce it which further contributes to deflation. Deflation will also occur when the market becomes saturated with superior goods that are meant to be rare, unique or special thus raising the standards of general luxury.

For example, as more dragons are slain, drake and scale will enter the market reducing the armour's prestige value, increasing availability and therefore reducing overall cost. If many players own drake/scale, it eventually creates a standard where owning a set makes you a 'decent' player.

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I see the exact opposite.  I think things will increase in price simply because people will spend more time trying to get rare items, focusing particularly on a set of armor for instance, and less on doing a little bit of everything.  I know I'd personally like to save time and pay silver versus having to grind a skill up and do it myself, and with the rare system I'd much rather spend even more time on that particular skill I do grind.

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The problem is that the supply has remained. The demand diminishes.

In order to create more demand we need more players. This means the game needs to "flesh out" more than it has. Graphics updates will do a lot to draw more people in, and once we have a larger population... demand, and then prices will begin to rise.

It's rarely a flat line in trade graphs. At times, the sales plummet, at times they jump up. You simply don't sell a lot of swimsuits in winter, nor snowshoes in summer...

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Constantly making the game easier will bring down the prices as well. More people will become good at making their own stuff if it's easier and more fun to make and those who are dedicated will produce more in the same amount of time. Shorter timers on brick, brick prices go down. Less material loss when attaching handles and lamp posts, prices of lamps and knifes will drop etc.

Is it bad for the economy, not necesarily. If Rolf and the devs keep adding more high end stuff to make, like rares, new items, etc. there will be new things to spend your silver on. It will of course create an inflation in the amount of items in the game since everyone will probably have more of everything.

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as far as the "easier" thing goes that's why I think he implemented the rare system, so that new players can easily create basics, and the old players would still have that one up on the new (high QL rare items) for selling to them. 

I honestly think you guys need to give it more than a few days :)

The game is fine, it's the players that are keeping new players from coming in.  Every day I see a couple new players trying to play/asking questions.  They seem interested, unfortunately the community of hateful vets that seek out these new players to run them off the server is becoming quite... harmful to our population.

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All in all I think the economy is ok.

The only thing that's a bit unbalanced is the fact that highly skilled players can and do spam out mid-QL tools and stuff at very low prices thus destroying the market for the newer players.

Having to grind a skill to at least 70+ before beginning to make some serious coin with it is not that cool.

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Another reason is we are not getting that many new players, the player amount stays the same and there are many tools out there already.

Player who quit sell up and have alot of tools to sell/give away for cheaper prices.

And for other things, people undercut, therefor the other players who made it for nothing, starts giving away stuff they don't need anymore because it has no actualy use to them.

People make stuff for friends easier and faster with higher skills and better tools..

Now with the faster timers everythign is even easier to create and the decay for tools sitting in chests or kept on an alt has not been adjusted, so the price will go down even more slowly.

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Many players want to pay from prem and their deed with ingame money. So they are forced to make at least 10s a month revenue while everyone else wants to do the same. The stiff competition leads to players undercutting each other.

On the bright side there are many players who just don't have the time or don't want to work for a hourly rate of less than 1EUR/h. I'd rather work one hour per month overtime to pay the prem than spending every free minute to work on ships, or tools or mindlessly dig dirt for money.

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On the subject of boats and boat prices (considering time and materials required), I think there is actually a problem; boats pretty much last forever.  This has been brought up a number of times over the years, but it hasn't really been solved.

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On the subject of boats and boat prices (considering time and materials required), I think there is actually a problem; boats pretty much last forever.  This has been brought up a number of times over the years, but it hasn't really been solved.

are you saying they shouldn't last for years? :/

If i keep imping my pickaxe and repairing it lasts for years aswell

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boats are the high end reward... for a lot of time invested. nerfing (advanced decay rate) is not a good idea.

rather, improve upon the items that exist.

I for one really like this rare+ item addition. I've been wondering if something was possible for a while now.

I suggest something like this for boats. Not necessarily rare supreme etc... but actual upgrades. This would drive boat markets onwards - tremendously.

creating various versions of each boat to sell that have different options. (think car lots. the limited edition.. etc)

I think being able to make a cog. then additional options being available for attachment later is the key.

a blacksmith has a lot of options... many tools to sell. in fact, most tools require some smith work.

a shipbuilder has 6 potential products. that is the problem there.

______

as for other items, I think that the rare+ items that have shown up are step one. much like boats, i don't think nerfing is the solution. make there a demand for more without punishing the buyer for buying your product already.

I'm sure many new people would be discouraged from buying that 7s tool knowing that in a matter of a month it'll be worthless (even locked away in a chest.)... and thus, not purchase the silver to use in game, much less work for it.

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On the subject of boats and boat prices (considering time and materials required), I think there is actually a problem; boats pretty much last forever.  This has been brought up a number of times over the years, but it hasn't really been solved.

are you saying they shouldn't last for years? :/

If i keep imping my pickaxe and repairing it lasts for years aswell

You've nailed it there, though: your pickaxe wears with use, and you maintain it through repair and improvement.  Boats have no mechanic for "wear" - only natural decay.  Maintained boats should last, but unmaintained should not.

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boats are the high end reward... for a lot of time invested. nerfing (advanced decay rate) is not a good idea.

rather, improve upon the items that exist.

I for one really like this rare+ item addition. I've been wondering if something was possible for a while now.

I suggest something like this for boats. Not necessarily rare supreme etc... but actual upgrades. This would drive boat markets onwards - tremendously.

creating various versions of each boat to sell that have different options. (think car lots. the limited edition.. etc)

I think being able to make a cog. then additional options being available for attachment later is the key.

a blacksmith has a lot of options... many tools to sell. in fact, most tools require some smith work.

a shipbuilder has 6 potential products. that is the problem there.

While I disagree that increasing decay on disused boats would hurt, I wholehearedly agree the very limited number of finished products (7 - I bet you forgot rafts) is an issue with Shipbuilding as a market.  Still, add 100 more ships or ship "modules", and without any way of removing them from the game, you still have a saturation problem.

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Critters will attack and dmg a cart when its being ridden during a fight. Id assume the same would be for attacking seagoing critters... we just need more seagoing critters. Sharks were a good step in the right direction imho.

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You've nailed it there, though: your pickaxe wears with use, and you maintain it through repair and improvement.  Boats have no mechanic for "wear" - only natural decay.  Maintained boats should last, but unmaintained should not.

http://i.imgur.com/Nb2CC.jpg  <<< a boat that hasn't been maintained in a while. After watching it sink over 2 years ago, finally seeing it taken out this fall was impressive.

Schiann - that's a good point about the addition of items vs decay. As usual I think the solution is right in the middle, again...

Maintained boats should last, but unmaintained should not

This I can agree with.

edit: again though. I disagree with passive decay increase in chests. not everyone can afford multiple, let alone a single large magic chest to hide their valuables in.

I think that would be disasterous, and devalue the products even moreso.

decay with use is great.

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