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Torgrim

Latest blog post by Rolf, grinding

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While I agree that it is harch in the beginning with those long timers I think that later on when you have good tools with enchants it's no longer the case. Rolf, please be very very careful with those timers. They can in fact be lowered considerably, down to a few seconds with the right equipment and skills.

It can take many months or even years to get there (depending on how much RL money you want to invest), but when you do, timers are not that bad.

So, if you do something, do it carefully, maybe adjust the maximum timers a bit (especially mining, destroy is also too long on freedom) and it would also be nice to see the timers go down all the time as you level up your skills and get better equipment, rather than take huge leaps when you get over some hidden threashold.

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Just cut timers in half, double skill gain and remove coc and woa enchants from the game.

Everyone wins.

It is a bit tricky to mess with timers after so long. Most players love Wurm because of the effort it takes to build something and the great feeling of accomplishment when you are done.

Maybe the mining timer is a bit harsh still for new players, especially as it doesn't drop below the 19 seconds before they are 50+ mining with a decent pickaxe.

Besides that I think tool timers work okay, the only thing that is bugging me is that attaching timer doesn't drop ever. It takes 11 seconds to attach a plank to a guard tower, a peg to a ship, a brick to a guard tower, regardless whether I have 1 or 90 in the corresponding skill.

Either way, whatever you decide Rolf, do not mess with the minimum timer of 4 seconds. Instant or 1 seconds timer should be a big no-no forever.

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Just cut timers in half, double skill gain and remove coc and woa enchants from the game.

Everyone wins.

Except Rolf looses half of his income and the game becomes alot more boring... Thats's a serious amount of "content" being removed if that would happen.

Also, what about all those people with priests? Alot of hard work would be wasted, unless they got something else instead, equally valuable.

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Just cut timers in half, double skill gain and remove coc and woa enchants from the game.

Everyone wins.

Except Rolf looses half of his income and the game becomes alot more boring... Thats's a serious amount of "content" being removed if that would happen.

Also, what about all those people with priests? Alot of hard work would be wasted, unless they got something else instead, equally valuable.

I agree with you Torgrim.  The one other thing folks keep forgetting when they say it will make things more fair or level the playing field is, you don't really want to do that.  You want items that will give you a distinct advantage if used, otherwise why have them at all?  The point of the game is to get an advantage over the other guy anyway.

I've tried to think about that 'totally fair' playing field recently and it would be quite dull.  No skills, ql does not matter so imping is not necessary just make an item and use it.  No armor, just 1 weapon type. No horses or ships.  No fs, so the outcome of every fight would be totally random, no amount of time you spend playing gives you any advantage in the next fight. No money, no trading and no economy, as that could also be unbalancing.  1 wall type, 1 building type, can only build a 1 tile house and it can be knocked down in 1 blow, just like the wall.  No pets, no farming, you never starve anyway.  Anyone want to play on that field?

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Here's a thought, what if skill/timers were reversed. Lower skill having minimum timers, and as you progress the quality of your products increases but the timers get longer. This can then be offset by using enchanted tools to reduce the time and the quality of your output stays regular. It makes more sense to spend longer time to produce a higher quality product, thus increasing the perceived value of these items.

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Here's a thought, what if skill/timers were reversed. Lower skill having minimum timers, and as you progress the quality of your products increases but the timers get longer. This can then be offset by using enchanted tools to reduce the time and the quality of your output stays regular. It makes more sense to spend longer time to produce a higher quality product, thus increasing the perceived value of these items.

I'd kill myself.

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Here's a thought, what if skill/timers were reversed. Lower skill having minimum timers, and as you progress the quality of your products increases but the timers get longer. This can then be offset by using enchanted tools to reduce the time and the quality of your output stays regular. It makes more sense to spend longer time to produce a higher quality product, thus increasing the perceived value of these items.

I'd kill myself.

I'm still not seeing a negative...

LOL, kidding.

It does kinda make sense, that to achieve a higher quality outcome, you'd have to put more work into it.

Not sure if I'd like it or not, though.

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Here's a thought, what if skill/timers were reversed. Lower skill having minimum timers, and as you progress the quality of your products increases but the timers get longer. This can then be offset by using enchanted tools to reduce the time and the quality of your output stays regular. It makes more sense to spend longer time to produce a higher quality product, thus increasing the perceived value of these items.

Sounds horrible to be honest, then you'd end up with sweet spots and not wanting to gain more skill. For example if you only want to make ql 70 items then 70-80 skill is enough, higher would just be a penalty due to the extra timer.

I also don't see how it would work with the terraforming skills, that just makes digging harder at higher skills since ql is pretty much irrelevant when terraforming..

I hope Rolf is very careful with reducing the timers, he's mostly talking about creation timers so far. If he keeps Improving timers as they are then it should be fine. Another thing he could change is increasing success chance so people have less fails and they won't have to spend as much time to create stuff if they have low skills. For high skills it wouldn't be much of a difference and it shouldn't affect improving either.

He talks about bricks in his blog, increasing the success ratio there would mean you can make more of those in less time. So the effect is similar to that of reducing the timers, except that you also get rid of a big annoyance factor at the same time since nothing is more annoying than failing to create something a ton of times.

Here's a thought, what if skill/timers were reversed. Lower skill having minimum timers, and as you progress the quality of your products increases but the timers get longer. This can then be offset by using enchanted tools to reduce the time and the quality of your output stays regular. It makes more sense to spend longer time to produce a higher quality product, thus increasing the perceived value of these items.

I'd kill myself.

I'm still not seeing a negative...

LOL, kidding.

It does kinda make sense, that to achieve a higher quality outcome, you'd have to put more work into it.

Not sure if I'd like it or not, though.

True, but it also makes more sense that you have to put more time into it if you're bad at creating something, while when you're good at it you can do it in less time. Which is how it works now

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but I don’t want to devalue the current skills or accomplishments

This last thing he said.

Don't change it, it's fine as it is.

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Maybe the mining timer is a bit harsh still for new players, especially as it doesn't drop below the 19 seconds before they are 50+ mining with a decent pickaxe.

I'm not disagreeing but while I was grinding mining I found the time to read like 3 books, I think like a 12-14 second timer would be good as a base though to start.  I don't think I'd like to see too many crafting timers touched really.  Just odd timers like destroying tree stumps, (30 seconds, really?) make it like 4 seconds max. 

This is probably a cop out, but the game is what it is.  Reducing all crafting timers across the board would take away from some of the achievement of leveling a skill.

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but I don’t want to devalue the current skills or accomplishments

This last thing he said.

Don't change it, it's fine as it is.

Yes, I agree, this is what Wurm is and what keeps people playing for many years. Some tweaks could be good, but nothing that makes things too simple.

if you want to go change something anyway, lowering timers but requireing more items for the same end products, with same amount of raw materials, could be an option to make the game a bit more "active". Maybe if you lower timer by 1/2 and make it an item require 1/3 more components or something like that, it would mean you can make more in less time if you play actively.

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Rolf hit the nail on the head with "consumables" the time it takes to make bricks and mortar is mindnumbingly dull, I did not feel very much achievment when I hit 80 masonry, It still takes ages of my life to make mortar even with woa.

+1 to reducing timers for making materials. The fun of wurm is building stuff generally, I take no pleasure or achievement in spamming 2k mortar.

Rolf you have discovered one of the major secrets besides graphics that drives mainstream gamers away in droves imho.

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I also disagree with reducing timers. I am also very against making timers go up as you get better, as that's not the case in real life.

I am an artist. How long would it take for someone without any skill to make a great drawing? All day? I can whip out a fantastic doodle in 5 minutes, where it would take all day, if ever, for a lesser skilled person to do that.

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Can anyone explain to me the benefit of draconian timers for consumables which you need to do the fun stuff like build, and the sense of achievement or sense of anything good other then carpal tunnel you gain spamming mortar?

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"... but I don’t want to devalue the current skills or accomplishments"

Easy - start a new freedom server with faster timers, which is not connected to existing servers. Anything else will either upset people who skilled with long timers, or stop timers from being changed.

Also good for attracting new people as they are not years behind others in skilling their characters.

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Easy - start a new freedom server with faster timers, which is not connected to existing servers. Anything else will either upset people who skilled with long timers, or stop timers from being changed.

That is not easy, that is unneccesary complicating things.

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Rolf hit the nail on the head with "consumables" the time it takes to make bricks and mortar is mindnumbingly dull, I did not feel very much achievment when I hit 80 masonry, It still takes ages of my life to make mortar even with woa.

I think the answer for this really lies within population and villagers.  Yes, if you sit there trying to build a giant deed with only 2 or 3 people helping of course the grind is slow, but is that how Wurm is intended?  I don't really think so.  I think that grind is not nearly as bad when you have villagers, the deed I live at on Elevation is like a 30x30 or something huge, but we have 30+ people.  So when we say, "Okay, Saturday is build day."  We all make bricks, mortar, build walls - and guess what, with 10-30 people working it surprisingly goes very fast.  Though this is a sandbox game, it's also a team game. 

I've seen deeds get built up overnight so quickly because of high populated villages, so really I think that whole "slow grind" of doing things like brick and mortar is just from people who are living solo, or only ones on their deed who really work hard.  Yes, that's unfortunate, but I do not think the grind of making bricks and mortar is all that bad. 

You must realize this also - that's a business for MANY people.  People sell bricks and mortar to make a profit, and by making that easier you just closed their whole business down.  Just like what happened with Fletching.  Yes, you can make it easier, but then it hurts the economy if everyone is easily able to do it without that grind. 

That grind to me is what makes Wurm unique.  You put time, effort, and work into the game to see your results.  The game wouldn't be fun if you just right clicked a tile border > build wall, and a wall appeared out of nowhere.  You'd have no sense of accomplishment.  I have a great sense of accomplishment when I look at the deed I live in because it took us a lot of time and work, thousands of bricks, thousands of mortar, nearly a whole month of work.  I don't want to "dumb" the game down just to make it easier.  The solution to me isn't making those grinds easier, it's get more people.  I really would encourage Rolf to not drastically change the timers of these things, because that is one of the things that make Wurm unique and it's own game. 

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It's not about decreasing timers. That won't really help with the grindish feeling. It's a easily usable UI combined with a high level of interactivity. Currently, Wurm's not more than a graphical representation of "progress quest" at times.

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How about, instead of changing the timers, instead at 50 skill you get the option to create 2 bricks, at 70 skill you get the option to create 3, and at 90 it's 5.

By giving people the option, they can still create 1 at a time for normal skill, but it rewards people for getting to certain skill levels as well.

That way the grind can be reduced, and people will feel a sense of accomplishment as the reach the title levels.

Thoughts?

 

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Rolf hit the nail on the head with "consumables" the time it takes to make bricks and mortar is mindnumbingly dull, I did not feel very much achievment when I hit 80 masonry, It still takes ages of my life to make mortar even with woa.

I think the answer for this really lies within population and villagers.  Yes, if you sit there trying to build a giant deed with only 2 or 3 people helping of course the grind is slow, but is that how Wurm is intended?  I don't really think so.  I think that grind is not nearly as bad when you have villagers, the deed I live at on Elevation is like a 30x30 or something huge, but we have 30+ people.  So when we say, "Okay, Saturday is build day."  We all make bricks, mortar, build walls - and guess what, with 10-30 people working it surprisingly goes very fast.  Though this is a sandbox game, it's also a team game. 

I've seen deeds get built up overnight so quickly because of high populated villages, so really I think that whole "slow grind" of doing things like brick and mortar is just from people who are living solo, or only ones on their deed who really work hard.  Yes, that's unfortunate, but I do not think the grind of making bricks and mortar is all that bad. 

You must realize this also - that's a business for MANY people.  People sell bricks and mortar to make a profit, and by making that easier you just closed their whole business down.  Just like what happened with Fletching.  Yes, you can make it easier, but then it hurts the economy if everyone is easily able to do it without that grind. 

That grind to me is what makes Wurm unique.  You put time, effort, and work into the game to see your results.  The game wouldn't be fun if you just right clicked a tile border > build wall, and a wall appeared out of nowhere.  You'd have no sense of accomplishment.  I have a great sense of accomplishment when I look at the deed I live in because it took us a lot of time and work, thousands of bricks, thousands of mortar, nearly a whole month of work.  I don't want to "dumb" the game down just to make it easier.  The solution to me isn't making those grinds easier, it's get more people.  I really would encourage Rolf to not drastically change the timers of these things, because that is one of the things that make Wurm unique and it's own game.

THIS ^  100% agree

I also use this as the key ingredient for thinking wurm needs a auction house system.  Those same villages that have 20-30 people can , when done , AH leftover goods that can go towards a smaller village that doesnt have as much time/people.  That also carries over to freedom where 1-2 man deeds are seen more often than the big ones so the solo person is more apt to buy goods to create for thier weekend play time or what not.  It keeps the need to want to have villagers as it has an economic advantage.  AH will keep all things on an equal across the board and not have a large economic impact that we would see with a timer reduction. 

I really really hope alot of thought goes into any time reductions outside of the realm of travel as timers / creation times makes up more of what players want to see from wurm and ease of travel as well as ease of merchandise transaction is looked at more as the underlying issues.

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Making a new separate freedom epic is not a good idea, freedom could end up the same way wild did in some months. Of course new players would choose the easy way if they got the chanse.

Auction House, no I don't think it fits in Wurm. Not the kind that is seen in other games at least. Maybe some kind of advertisement boards where you could advertise your goods but people would still have to travel to your merchant to buy or make contact and have things mailed?

One thing that could be improved is the skill gain from creating things. One really rediculous example is ship building, you get very litte skill from making a boat but you get good gains from improving oars, what's with that? Attaching and creating should give the same gains as improving.

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Making a new separate freedom epic is not a good idea, freedom could end up the same way wild did in some months. Of course new players would choose the easy way if they got the chanse.

Auction House, no I don't think it fits in Wurm. Not the kind that is seen in other games at least. Maybe some kind of advertisement boards where you could advertise your goods but people would still have to travel to your merchant to buy or make contact and have things mailed?

One thing that could be improved is the skill gain from creating things. One really rediculous example is ship building, you get very litte skill from making a boat but you get good gains from improving oars, what's with that? Attaching and creating should give the same gains as improving.

As a solo player that despises making bricks and mortar and would pay for those items.. Id vote 1st for an auction house, 2nd for a reduced timers... either way you lose the travel times as with reduced timers im able to make the things on my own and most will choose that route if its easier period.  Id much rather see something that keeps the economy flowing even if it reduces the needs for a few to travel.  Keep in mind that MOST changes affect BOTH pvp and pve so you have to accept the changes rolf is considering for epic as a change that will go over to freedom as well.  Of those 2 things, id much rather see the Auction house system vs the alternatives as like i said.. it keeps the economic features in tact.

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im a new player, only 12 days old to this game. I see the grinds, i realized how long they will take. But guess what?, I joined this game cuz of it. i droped bout 160 bucks on this game so far.  Was worth it. For those who can afford it , you can get top notch armor-weapons-tools-materials. Sure a faster timer would be nice, But then messing with it i see as a bad thing. WOA and COC play a heavy part ingame to the gameplay and to the economy, fiddle with those 2 casts, ya fiddle with alot more, then ya mess things up which are already pretty fragile. Btw i play solo on a deed i made, 35x27 and im slowly filling every last bit of it up. All the tools ya need to grind and play are ingame. No needs to fiddle withem. This is a sandbox afterall, if ya dont grind up skills and earn those titles, better times, better QL, then wth is the point to playing?. I know why i joined wurm, Do you still remember why you joined? :-)

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Fear not Rolf, I for one as a player will not feel any loss of accomplishment if creation timers at certain skills were reduced more.

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