griefing new road (at a road block) pun? just close please

[Kerwal 31]

OK here are some screen shots of the area in question so you all know what the situation actualy looks like in the area.

I suck at linking images so I just linked the photos

first 3 are of the access road up to the highway  and this is only about 1/4 to 1/3 of the road and it is all uphill

http://home.comcast.net/~selindsey/pwpimages/wurm.20110829.0859.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~selindsey/pwpimages/wurm.20110829.0900.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~selindsey/pwpimages/wurm.20110829.0900.jpg

A shot from bird hill looking down at the road end and house in question.

everything this side of the house is built by spage and Co.

http://home.comcast.net/~selindsey/pwpimages/wurm.20110829.0906_1.jpg

A shot of the coast heading to Port Eagle. All tiles are on perimeter of bird hill or port eagle.

http://home.comcast.net/~selindsey/pwpimages/wurm.20110829.0907.jpg

A shot from halfway between port eagle and bird hill,  last 2 shots where taken from about where the "K" in kerwal is.

http://home.comcast.net/~selindsey/pwpimages/wurm.20110829.0919.jpg

The 2 backpacks are at the edge of the Deed for bird hill 5 after are perimeter. The house and "raod" are behind them.

http://home.comcast.net/~selindsey/pwpimages/wurm.20110829.0911_1.jpg

And Lastly the slope highlighted is the shallowest it can get at the coner of the house with house at one corner and rock on the oppisit.

http://home.comcast.net/~selindsey/pwpimages/wurm.20110829.0909.jpg

A few pictures to go with the argument

[Devean 51]

If it's in perimeter (aka exclusive building right area) i don't see the problem*. But yeah, out of it, i can see how it's abusive;

[Protunia 735]

Ok so basically you want to stop them from connecting to the road that's already there after the house?

besides the fact that look like a terrible place to deed near the house lol.

[FogToo 1]

Ok so basically you want to stop them from connecting to the road that's already there after the house?

besides the fact that look like a terrible place to deed near the house lol.

[Arindor 27]

Some details that may not be clear to those who are not familiar with this situation:

• This is a new highway that is being added.  Spage went away, no highway was present.  Came back three days later, highway was there.
  
• The new highway has been built along the face of a cliff, just like the cliff that exists on the west side of crystal lake. Dirt was dumped into the water to make new land where there had been none.
  
• There are no existing highways in the area.  The only existing roads in the area are roads that Spage and friends have built to connect their deeds to one another.  The closest highway the road builder intends to access is approximately 200+ tiles away across many deeds.  Most of the affected owners have already posted here they don't want the traffic across their deeds.
  
• The FCC states that existing deed owners have the right to decide if a new highway will be built in their area.  No consideration was given by the road builder of how the traffic would arrive at his new highway.  He has taken advantage of the fact that he can walk across Spage and friend's deeds to get to his new highway, and just decided to build a new highway without consulting anyone.  As pointed out elsewhere, the potential impact of this new highway could be massive, likely carrying a large amount of traffic through the affected deeds.
  
• Many folk have pointed out that a fence could be built around Spage's deed to prevent the unwanted traffic.  While this is true, Birds Hill is a very large, expansive, beautiful deed that Spage has clearly put 10-100x the work of a normal deed to build (if you don't believe me, go see!).  He clearly doesn't want to have to fence it.  The new deed that was created by Spage's villager is adjacent to Birds Hill in a section of wilderness where a structure and fences previously existed - which were bashed to make the road.  This new deed is being (has been?) fenced to block the road.
  
• Spage and friends had deeded on the coast, and have 4+ adjoining deeds.  One of these deeds is Port Eagle - a port, obviously.  If Spage and friends fence their deeds/perimeters, is is right that this highway be continued out into the water around their deeds, and cutting off their coastal access?
  

This issue here is what rights does somebody whose deed is hundreds of tiles away have to come modify the coastal perimeter of another group of player's deeds and/or to install a highway there without consulting the deed owners?  If the player wants the highway and the deed owner(s) disagree, who prevails?  Also, can you simply build a road out into the water around a coastal deed and cut off their coastal access, even on their perimeter?

IMO, I think Spage is well within his rights to insist that this highway be stopped.  Technically, this is a grey area in the game rules, and as a result, a dispute has arisen.  But who is griefing who?  Each side claims the other is griefing.

Wiktionary defines griefing as:

To deliberately harass and annoy other players of a game in order to interfere with their enjoyment of it; especially, to do this as one’s primary activity in the game.

[Aeris 3,762]

We should have the option to select 0 Free tiles for perimeter in the deed settings. This would allow people to butt deeds next to each other and eliminate perimeter tiles if they choose. The perimeter tiles are supposed to be a way of expanding in the future. A lot of times they just prevent being able to expand especially in the cases of perimeters butted next to each other. You have those 5 tiles "reserved for future use" but you can never deed them.

[Saddist 82]

sigh seems like some people have forgotten basic neighbourly communication skills, if there is a deed near by and you are going to be making a road in the area, approch them and ask first if they want one, hell sometimes you get help and sometimes you are told no.

pretty basic. just be polite, if you need a road or would like a road, talk to your neighbours, its not uncommon to have to go around a deed and its also just as common for the deed to assist in the road project. some people like their privacy and others like company.

but no matter what communicate with thy neighbours, it saves alot of hassle later on.

[Kerwal 31]

Unfortuantly saddist he didn't ask, was told no and he started this post claiming griefing in reply.

[Hogwash 177]

After talking to Spage since you have talked to him, I can see that you will wall in our beach house which was intentionally off deed to ferment wine.

[Kilitra 11]

let's keep to the point at hand.  

There are people who feel that the new deed is a griefing manuever.  There are people who don't believe that it is.  There are apparently a group that wishes to have a road leading into Port Eagle/Bird Hill area and up to the highway from there to Free Market.  There is a group that is very resistant to the idea of having a road that allows MORE access to Port Eagle and Bird Hill and the environs of the valley to include mutltiple deed owners in the area of the valley.  

There is a road with access to the highway that is very tedious to travel with animals or carts, and is very difficult to design a better road for a higher amount of traffic.  This tiny road with access to the highway has not been designated as a public road...there are no sand buffers, it is only 1 tile wide and most sits on a perimeter.  The owner has been nice enough to let all of us use it rather than forcing us to make a different access road.  

It is a very volitile arguement but necessary none the less at this point, until all points of view are heard.

[Saddist 82]

there are times that public roads are only 1 tile wide, this sound like one of them. is there any way the current road can be improved though. some times an alternative is a compremise that best suits everyone. and thats what this all boils down to.

one person wants one thing and the other person dosn't but if there is already a way, why cant it be improved to get public highway status. sure its a compremise, but then perhaps thats all that will really happen here.

diplomatically, you need to come to an agreement before you start any building. dont stick your head in the mud, sometimes the best plans arn't the right ones anyway.

go on guys, start talking to each other.... and in private, theres no reason to make this so public.

if you cant come to a mutual agreement, ask someone impartial to mediate for you. id do it but im rarely on as much as i'd like, there are heaps of other players that would help too if you but ask.

[Torluk 21]

Wiktionary defines griefing as:

To deliberately harass and annoy other players of a game in order to interfere with their enjoyment of it; especially, to do this as one’s primary activity in the game.

[Protunia 735]

I can say this all this attention and protectionism will bring more people because there must be something there worth it!!!  

[Hogwash 177]

I can say this all this attention and protectionism will bring more people because there must be something there worth it!!!  

[Devean 51]

• This is a new highway that is being added.  Spage went away, no highway was present.  Came back three days later, highway was there.

[Arindor 27]

• This is a new highway that is being added.  Spage went away, no highway was present.  Came back three days later, highway was there.

[Kilitra 11]

add to that list several other deeds that are not mentioned...The owners of them have not been on Wurm long and are not on the forum as of yet.

[Maximilus 0]

Simple as what's been said, if it's not on deed is free and this includes perimeter (game rules). Fencing huge amounts of land (even if this is on the current rules cover by enclosures) would not fly, because if this is allow, I'll be the first one to fence of 100,000 tiles of the map and will disband all deeds currently on it; This is not possible also because the game world is sharable by others, so I can't just take over, for my own enjoying (griefing), tiles that a didn't buy with a deed, because the 5 minimum perimeter tiles are FREE, so stop arguing you people payed for that and have control over them, you don't. It don't matter who came first or later, because unless it's all deeded (this is quite possible, talk to Elite, he can master you on it), you only control what you deeded and nothing more. If you wanted no one stepping foot on your precious perimeter tiles, guess a fence (enclosure) is in order; Wait, don't want to do that, then though luck. And last, stop calling for the FCC, it fail once because of situations just like this one (everyone is right and everyone is wrong with the FCC), and was half turn into rules and the rest is just a guideline (should be completely remove, really).

Does this situation suck for both parties involved? Yeah, but guess what, a 300 x 300 deed will fit all of you nicely and you won't have to worry about perimeter any longer, and for the looks of it, is 6+ people there so you can all afford it.

Deed what you value most is my favorite game rule line of them all. There, I solve it for the offended party.....

Arindor, he's not griefing anyone by building a road, if that's the case, then we all need to reported and ban..get a grip.

[Xallo 2,599]

From personal experience, if you don't deed it, you don't own it. Perimeter is not included in deeded tiles, as Maximilus said, it's for deed blocking only, and you get 5 tiles of it free around your deed...

The best thing you can do currently is build a fence completely around your perimeter. This won't guarantee 100% game mechanic safety, but it is against the rules to bust into an enclosure:

Breaking fences.

It is illegal to break any fence that does not belong to you AND is also a part of an enclosure.

Enclosure is defined as a completely enclosed area, composed of fences, gates or walls, and attached to or surrounding a completed intact house.

[Arindor 27]

Simple as what's been said, if it's not on deed is free and this includes perimeter (game rules). Fencing huge amounts of land (even if this is on the current rules cover by enclosures) would not fly, because if this is allow, I'll be the first one to fence of 100,000 tiles of the map and will disband all deeds currently on it; This is not possible also because the game world is sharable by others, so I can't just take over, for my own enjoying (griefing), tiles that a didn't buy with a deed, because the 5 minimum perimeter tiles are FREE, so stop arguing you people payed for that and have control over them, you don't. It don't matter who came first or later, because unless it's all deeded (this is quite possible, talk to Elite, he can master you on it), you only control what you deeded and nothing more. If you wanted no one stepping foot on your precious perimeter tiles, guess a fence (enclosure) is in order; Wait, don't want to do that, then though luck. And last, stop calling for the FCC, it fail once because of situations just like this one (everyone is right and everyone is wrong with the FCC), and was half turn into rules and the rest is just a guideline (should be completely remove, really).

Does this situation suck for both parties involved? Yeah, but guess what, a 300 x 300 deed will fit all of you nicely and you won't have to worry about perimeter any longer, and for the looks of it, is 6+ people there so you can all afford it.

Deed what you value most is my favorite game rule line of them all. There, I solve it for the offended party.....

Arindor, he's not griefing anyone by building a road, if that's the case, then we all need to reported and ban..get a grip.

[Urman 1]

Prediction:  More and more people will fence off more and more perimeter and off deed tiles.  GM team will be forced to relook and amend enclosure rules.  Much wailing and gnashing of teeth will occur.

[Torluk 21]

Prediction:  More and more people will fence off more and more perimeter and off deed tiles.  GM team will be forced to relook and amend enclosure rules.  Much wailing and gnashing of teeth will occur.

Optimistic Prediction:  Freedom2 will open and there will be much rejoicing. 

[Othob Rithol 700]

Prediction:  More and more people will fence off more and more perimeter and off deed tiles.  GM team will be forced to relook and amend enclosure rules.  Much wailing and gnashing of teeth will occur.

Which will lead to griefing of noob farms which will lead to the GM team re-adding the enclosure rule which will lead to....

All that needs to be changed is a maximum area needs to be set. the enclosure rule is there to prevent bashing into small noobie farms and mines...not to be able to lay claim to huge tracts of un-deeded land.

[Maximilus 0]

There is some ambiguity in the game rules/FCC on Freedom, and it seems some people are (of course) taking advantage of the situation.  The situation is an "enclosure", off-deed.

You said that, didn't you? See what I did there? That's taking something out of context, even tho now it applies to this issue right?

Amazing how some individuals on this forums call others trolls just because they are trying to defend something that is trivial, but clear as day on the game rules, thus taking advantage of the situation.

You all involved on this little rant should stop bickering with each other and go read the game rules (not the FCC) and deal with the situation according to that, deed the entire area involved if you want no one messing with it, hell wall the entire area from FM to the edge of Byzantium because of the "ambiguity in the game rules/FCC on Freedom" or stop trying to find loopholes to hoard huge amounts of lands. Call me a troll all you like, game rules are there for you and me to use, it's time you go do some reading.

[chewius 12]

I guess my reply is necessary.

Bottom Line. I didnt intend to grief or otherwise "mess up" anyones deeded property or otherwise community used hunting or orchard area. The only "mistake" id admit to is building close to the off deed house that the road had run around in order to make a connecting route. Yes I bashed a few fences in order to complete the traversable road. To me they looked pointness, cept to be in the way. not even on perimeter and just random no activity on the site not even trees. These fences wer not part of any enclosure. I guess I should of waited around for Spage to come back from vacation, yet talking to the one person I did see in local (Kilitra) didnt indicate a problem having an off deed road going through the area. Somehow i dont think waiting would of changed his stubborn mind.

I offered to restore the area around this unused house only put there to cause difficulty traveling through and suggested extending a tile out infront of it to make a road past (still no deed or perimeter in the in question area yet).  I had turned down this which was the origional plan because it would use about 1000 dirt to deal with the 100+ slope from the existing shore line.

I just dont understand why Spage or whoever in the area that actually side with him have a problem with other people. If you want to scrutinize every person who enters your local, join wild.

Many other areas in Freedom have roads that connect various villages. Some being 2 tile wide or sand barrier "public" roads, others are single lane roads used by the community that benefit the area making it easier to find your way or faster to outrun aggressive animals on foot. Any time something new gets built in an area I can understand stress it may cause. I regret not being able to contact Spage earlier but again i dont think it would make any difference. I tried everything I could think of to reason with him but he just wants to be a problem for the community and is paranoid everyone running into local will destory the off deed surroundings which I can understand he has a reason to be concerned for but again "off deed" surroundings. Even a perimeter of a deed the owner of the deed has no right to other then preventing outside buildings that would prevent the deeds expansion.

This guy lives in a spot between a shore line and a mountain and doesnt want traffic? Yes this proposed road would bring "noobs" that this CA is so afraid of and dislikeful of along an easier route to get to the southeast part of the map which is otherwise only accessable by boat which players who joined within the last 2 days dont have.

To answer Spage's suggestion to make a detour elsewhere, I refer you to the screenshots:

Simply put he is just blocking a bottleneck because he can.

To be absolutly clear, the idea of making walls was an offer of mine to help spage keep "unwanted noob traffic" outof "his" area

Part of the conversation:

[17:21:35] <Spage> Why make a public road. You were able to pass with out any problem

What?  he also goes and says this:

[17:32:47] <Spage> No - Please understand that the settlement is wisely placed to stop roadbuilding

<Spage> I choosed this place to settle because I then had to deal with a lot of noobs.

(said by a CA, which stands for Community Assistant)

It would be a shame if this anti community behavior is allowed to preside and make things more difficult for new and veteran players.

It would be like me closing off Crystal Canal because I dont like the boat traffic., completely stupid.

(of course dont take that as a threat as we more sociable players welcome the traffic as well to the market we are planning)

So Im not going to waste more time on this if this guy is just going to throw up a blockade. I have other projects to deal with and rl issues which will keep me from playing much in the near future.

Map of the new shore road

finished part of the new road. Took some dirt but it is traversable by horse/cart ( a tunnel is in the middle ahead)

the north side of the mountain, north of Avocano Mines the route proposed by Spage for an alternate road (lol)