Arbitrary judgements in Wurm

[Zao 196]

Each case is different, I get that. Sometimes it is hard to stay consistent with punishment in the world of wurm because there are so many factors. All we are asking is for GMs to point out specific examples when it comes to severe punishments like this. Otherwise all we have to go on is possible misinformation that we heard second hand.

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

I personally do not have any problem with the way this has been handled at all.  After all, this is not a democracy, it is a company.  And any company can refuse to do business with you if you become too much of a problem, they do not need to cite exact reasons why.  And as far as the rest of us are concerned, we have no right to know why he was banned.  Folks that are always trying to push the rules to find the limits deserve what they get.  It reminds me of a 3 year old getting into the cookie jar every day, and saying, "I'm not supposed to do it today either?"  Don't try to push the limits and you have nothing to worry about.

[fevfev 122]

even if the GMs told you why you would all pick and flame at the facts so there is not much point in the GMs wasting there time........

[Mrbloodworth 41]

even if the GMs told you why you would all pick and flame at the facts so there is not much point in the GMs wasting there time........

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

I'm glad the GM team can sometimes take off the goggles of tunnel vision that represents moderation done strictly and solely by the written rules. We all know "those guys". Those who push the limits at the expense of others. Those who would willfully ruin someone's fun for amusement. Those who act upon weaknesses in the rules. Those who are clearly doing bad things, yet evade punishment thanks to how the laws are worded. Those whose moral compass tells they should act differently yet choose not to because they know they can get away with it. The bad apples who should be removed lest they spoil the basket, I'm glad there's some indication the GM team have the balls to deal with those.

I think the team should present a token explanation to their actions however, even if it's just a locked thread with a few facts it might still quell the uncertainty.

[Myriad 52]

I've never knowingly come across TG, but if half, heck, if a third of the things I hear about him (griefing, trolling, spawn point camping, newbie bashing, exploit abusing, threatening, insulting, all of these done repeatedly over a long period of time) were true, can one really say this was unexpected or have the audacity to claim it is unfair?

I wonder what's up with those so heavily questioning this ruling. It's not like you'll get perma-banned for doing any of these things once. Or twice. Or even a handful of times. GMs are very, very cautious about banning folk in this game. I should know, I was basically griefed out of it and still nothing was done because 'he didn't break the rules'.

I, for one, am very satisfied that there is a point, after all, where even the GMs say: you've stepped over the line once too often and out you go.

As for anyone owing an explanation... dunno, I can see the point of communicating something about this sort of thing, even if it isn't mandatory from the company point of view. If memory serves, there used to be a forum for judgements, no?

[tylerd 0]

Myriad got it, were probably talking about a case file on tony going back 3+ years worth of incidences.

[Wulfgar 1,129]

If you can't keep opinions from facts in sensitive situations like these you really shouldn't post and don't think I'll miss you.

[Postes 5,282]

If you disagree with the ban you are usually wrong. At least in Wurm. We go to extreme lengths to let our players stay in the game.

[Othob Rithol 700]

I think the team should present a token explanation to their actions however, even if it's just a locked thread with a few facts it might still quell the uncertainty.

[Kyrian 10]

I definitely disagree with you, Postes. I understand where Zao is coming from. When a kingdom loses a well-known player like Tony it's natural that people should want to discuss it to some degree. I can understand the GMs not wanting to give full details on what happened, but I think it wouldn't hurt to give us an idea of the over-arching issue that lead to his ban. Something as simple as telling us he was exploiting (I have absolutely no idea what he did, just using an example) would go a long way towards stopping this idea that he was banned over something minor.

I know for example in WoW (yeah, yeah, super-big game of doom) if a guild leader is banned you can put in a ticket asking for some sort of explanation and they will tell you the general reason why s/he was banned. Just something like - gold buying, harassment of another player, etc etc. I know this isn't WoW, but it does dispute the idea that GMs don't discuss bans in other games.

Anywho, not trying to rock the boat unnecessarily, just putting in my 2 cents.

[Zao 196]

Comments like this from Zao:

I personally think that allowing your GM team to have the power to ban without providing the public with any explanation whatsoever is a breeding ground for corruption. I also think that the rule that you aren't allowed to discuss GM ruling in public is unneeded and is a lazy cop out.

Are just silly nonsense.  Honestly this is one of the stupidest things I've ever read on these forums.  Grounds for corruption, lol.  This is a Java Sandbox style MMORPG, not a government.  Don't act like such a teenage rebel here.  Play the game.  

This may get erased for "Trolling" but god damn some people in MR are babies.  Huge babies.  Make 10 threads about all this, something so dumb to begin with an accusing GMs of acting like Big Brother in 1984.  Get over it.  No one ever had this reaction when Poolsclosed got banned.  I don't see why people have to suddenly have to have a hissy fit and kick n'pout. 

[Postes 5,282]

Also a lot of people think it was related to ban evading/trolling and then wanted to know why I was around.  To give you some measurement of how bad I am compared to Tonygreen, I asked Enki to look into my "Case":

[21:28:57] <Traveler> Hey

[21:32:54] <Enki> hello

[21:33:10] <Traveler> uhhhhhhhhhh should i be worried or anything about like a permaban

[21:33:25] <Enki> why?

[21:33:45] <Traveler> i dunno this is posteh, like i just been forum banned also n stuff and been known to troll

[21:34:08] <Enki> oh you are concerned about the recent permaban on Tonygreen

[21:34:22] <Traveler> well i didnt know if like i should be worried or osmething

[21:34:27] <Traveler> or if it wasnt related to trolling

[21:34:48] <Enki> strange you ask that kind of thing.  either answer I give is too much info

[21:34:53] <Enki> let me try this

[21:35:13] <Traveler> i dont want any info about tony

[21:35:25] <Traveler> i just wanted to know if it i also did something bad

[21:35:51] <Enki> You would really have to work at abusing our system to cause us to permaban you.  If we feel that our normal moderation methods no longer are effective, we will ban someone permanantly

[21:36:09] <Traveler> ok

[21:36:12] <Enki> Let me review your case one sec

*chitchat*

[21:43:34] <Enki> Your case does not appear so bad

[21:44:54] <Traveler> ok

[darthryan 588]

Seeing as Rolf took the time for this post, both making it and replying to it, I would come to the conclusion that the banning process is not one that is taken lightly.

[Zao 196]

You just don't get it. Some of us in MR aren't buddies with the GM staff and we aren't always up to date on what everyone else in Wurm is doing. If we don't hear something official then all we have is second hand information to go off of which leads to assumptions. I would like to believe that the GMs staff is fair and doesn't take bans lightly but then I see a few years ago Rolf banned some people from the forums for saying that he is lazy. This kind of stuff makes me believe that sometimes rash decision can be mad in the 'heat of the moment'.

[Norad 0]

no GM issued permaban is made in the heat of the moment.  theyre discussed for quite sometime and voted on.

[yancy 1]

even if the GMs told you why you would all pick and flame at the facts so there is not much point in the GMs wasting there time........

This.

You guys will find most game services will not discuss in public GM actions.

Don't do the crime, and you won't do the time.

[freee 0]

everyone who says I see no problem with this ban and are happy with it have 0 information on it and are simply showing hatred toward me, a member of an enemy kingdom.

Here is what it is. A few days before the ban Oracle posts, this thread can be seen as a personal attack, and tonygreen has broke no rules and done nothign wrong.

Now here is the "official reason for the ban...

Hello Mark,

       You have been removed from Wurm for a number of reasons, and while I could stand here and list all of our reasons for your removal I will keep this brief.  Rarely, do we see individuals who abuse our system to the level that you have chosen.  It has simply come to the point that we can no longer moderate your issues effectively within the warning / ban system as you continue to aggressively challenge, bypass, and even abuse our moderation towards your own ends.

       This removal does not reflect any single action in game that you have committed in the course of Wild server activity.  The simplest way to describe your situation is that you have been misbehaving.  You have been using certain game mechanics in ways unintended without reporting, and for whatever reason you have been intentionally making wild server undesirable to new players.  We will not go into detail over each of your activities that have drawn us to this conclusion.  You have become an undesirable element in the game and we have decided it is time for you to leave Wurm permanantly.

Thank you,

Enki (Game Moderator)

"You have been using certain game mechanics in ways unintended without reporting" no one will say what this mechanic or mechnics are.....

instead...

Mark, you have received an explanation from Enki. You should be able

to find some answers there.

You may also ask other players if possible. Maybe they can explain.

Maybe not your friends if they all are on your side. I have a team I

trust with these decisions and from what I hear a lot of people agree

with these bans.

/Rolf

The second part "and for whatever reason you have been intentionally making wild server undesirable to new players"

This ban comes after a week when tony killed about 10 JK fighters in there homeland, inlcuding there best fighter, and drained CAPSALOT 3 times.

Thats when complaints started that I was "spawn camping" and making people quit wurm.

Since when did pvping become making wild undesireable?

That coupled with the refusal to describe any game mechanic used as not intended and not reported is troubling.

There has been no real or clear answer to tonys ban other then " we dont like you killing people in JK it makes it undesireable to play on wild by ravaging the enemy kingdom for a week.

I don't want to be rude.

Not breaking rules does not equal not doing the wrong thing.

There won't be rules for everything and there will be holes in

systems. If you abuse those you are doing the wrong thing.

If you don't understand that you ignore facts of life. If you didn't

take measures to avoid being banned you're careless. Most people do

try to be safe. I don't understand why you didn't but you seem smart

enough to take such decisions:

"<Tonygreen> if i didnt have intgrity in game i would be perma banned ages ago

<Tonygreen> trust me

<Tonygreen> lol

<Tonygreen> they r just waiting

<Tonygreen> but will never have a reason"

I don't want to start a discussion what you mean by integrity in game

but apparently you knew you were on the fringe. Staying there was a

really bad decision.

I think you have to call it GG and start over fresh.

Good luck,

Rolf

Still even further from a real reason and closer to "a whole bunch of people dont like you and want you gone for making them miserable,"

Incidently these people are the enemy kingdom that tony has been pvping actively.

[Proterus 0]

Plus it would just be entertaining, you know like the scenes where they would read a list of the crimes the person committed to the public before they would hang someone.  So reading off the long list of things TonyGreen did over the years would be awesome.

But at any rate, consistency is sometimes over rated (not that I'm implying there is any inconsistency in the system we have). If they write the rules such that they have to consult them and ban people with very little personal judgement and if the rules are too lenient then people will perpetually do things that are frowned upon but not technically bannable.  If they are too harsh, then you end up banning a lot of people who probably shouldn't be banned getting banned and it feels like you have a fascist moderation team.  If there is a gray area, or even if you only ban some of the offenders, this will create fear of uncertainty that you might get hit with a perma ban if you break the rules.

All you have to do is shoot one rioter and the whole group usually stops.

But at the same time, maybe have a gradual system of harsh but not permanent punishments.  Like a month ban or three month ban or six month ban is a pretty harsh punishment.  I think it would be effective in stopping that behavior without actually losing a customer and people wouldn't be so mad about it.

Also I didn't know forum activity could get your in game account banned?  I better behave myself, I just assumed since I saw all of these accounts that didn't correspond with the persons in game name that people had made an account because they were banned.

[Mrbloodworth 41]

I don't know what the crime was. That's why I think we need a small description of what happened and why the GMs think a ban is in order.

[riceri 66]

You just don't get it. Some of us in MR aren't buddies with the GM staff and we aren't always up to date on what everyone else in Wurm is doing. If we don't hear something official then all we have is second hand information to go off of which leads to assumptions. I would like to believe that the GMs staff is fair and doesn't take bans lightly but then I see a few years ago Rolf banned some people from the forums for saying that he is lazy. This kind of stuff makes me believe that sometimes rash decision can be mad in the 'heat of the moment'.

[freee 0]

Problem is they havent told the banned anything except some vague reference to making wild undesireable because he kills alot of them at the heartland, and some other vague reference to using game features in unintended ways and not reporting.

Tony was not asked his side of the story on any of this, all accounts where taken from people who hate him, the enemies he kills.

Many logs were produced from the same people that hate him, his enemies he kills in game, religously.

No one looks at the logs of the harrassment tony has gotten over his family, and being called a "deadbeat dad" by the entire kingdom of JK repeatedly. It is obvious the people who were interviewed in this were biased by there hate and desire to have him removed for any reason.

There is no rule on spawn killing, tonygreen has never received a warnign for exploiting or cheating in any way shape or form.

[Postes 5,282]

The second part "and for whatever reason you have been intentionally making wild server undesirable to new players"

[Proterus 0]

Problem is they havent told the banned anything except some vague reference to making wild undesireable because he kills alot of them at the heartland, and some other vague reference to using game features in unintended ways and not reporting.

Tony was not asked his side of the story on any of this, all accounts where taken from people who hate him, the enemies he kills.

Many logs were produced from the same people that hate him, his enemies he kills in game, religously.

No one looks at the logs of the harrassment tony has gotten over his family, and being called a "deadbeat dad" by the entire kingdom of JK repeatedly. It is obvious the people who were interviewed in this were biased by there hate and desire to have him removed for any reason.

There is no rule on spawn killing, tonygreen has never received a warnign for exploiting or cheating in any way shape or form.

[freee 0]

Good riddance coming from a convicted exploiter himself that only got warnings for exploiting skill, and forum activity just as bad as tonygreens.

Good riddance from one of the main guy that harrassed tony to no end about his personal life calling him a deadbeat dad and telling him to take care of his kids and not be a deadbeat dad, constantly every day in kchat.

Good riddance from you with warnings for exploiting skill while the guy you harrased daily gets a 273 year ban.

What about all the other grief alts that have torn up roads through the years? Is just a little griefing ok then?