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Aodhan

So Rolf..i'm about to log for the final time...tera nova...am I right?c

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I have turned over my deed to a friend...paid for one final month of game time+a few silver which i droped into a friends deed so it can continue with its tree farm.

So..are your really the right side of Tera Nova or are you really so far out as to never have mattered at all?

Only Rolf can answer this one.

Out.

Aodhan

zx

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Apart from " I quit" i didnt follow any of what you just said :/

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Might be a misspelling of this game ("Terra Nova"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_Force_Centauri

"Despite critical acclaim and sales above 100,000 units, the game was a commercial failure; it did not recoup its development costs."

TerraNovaLandscape.gif

If so, not really the same as I don't think Wurm has the issue of not meeting development costs. But I guess he means a game very popular with a small niche, but not having mass general appeal.

Which is fine with me, I am sick of all the "mass appeal" games. 

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Hi,

to be honest, I understand this. Rolf is, at the moment, working on a lot of projects that just a very small minority of the Wurm players is interested in. While the overwhelming majority of his customers are realizing this development as nerf after nerf, and is experiencing a lot of problems (finishing lag again?), and feels unhappy and lost.

Rolf has his idea of the game, and as it seems, he has a PvP orientated vision.

What he maybe misses to realize is:

  • a.) that to cater to a PvP crowd is the hardest thing a game developer can ever try - see Guild Wars and such. Such a crowd will be whining forever - they will do anything to get even the smallest edge for their faction, their class, whatever. They are competitive, and they want their edge. And if they finally got it, the other side will start complaining. Wash, rinse, repeat.
    .
  • b.) that maybe the only way to have a working PvP scenario is "equal gear, equal in-game skills, even play ground". This way RL skills would matter.
    But this wouldn't work in Wurm, because high-QL gear and skills grinded over months are the determining factor. This might be a reason while true PvP'ers will never ever even take Wurm into consideration. They play Starcraft instead, or Counterstrike, or Unreal tournament.
    Where skill counts, not hours spent, or purse depth.
    .
  • c.) that meanwhile, in 2011, a new generation of gamers has established. And that the vast majority of them isn't interested in PvP at all. These new gamers are older people, women, younger players that want to relax for a few hours after a long day of work. These want to have fun during their limited hours of recreation, they happily accept the challenge of a grinding game like Wurm, they love to create themselves beautiful places, and they have the money to pay for.

    The gamers profile has changed. Instead of the nerdy teenagers that once was the majority of customers for a game developer, today the target audience is "mature", "old", some even "aged", and there's a not so small number of "venerables" meanwhile.
    And all these don't care at all for "kingdom conflicts", whacking-each-other, badmouthing-each-other. Such they have at work already, day by day, in RL.
    .
  • d.) that what he does at the moment, trying desperately to resurrect the failed PvP attempts, is in fact shooting his own feet. Even the PvP players aren't happy, as far as I see reading the forum.
    And the vast majority of PvE players feels cheated. But exactly here would be the target audience that would happily pay for further development, for a better Wurm.
    Wurm is a great game, and it's actually unique in many areas. A lot of ppl would be happy to leave their money here, for a bit of recreation and entertainment. But most of these people don't care in Wurm PvP at all.
    And having the game this much PvP orientated, over and over screwing all non-PvPers with "balance updates", is a sure way into oblivion. IMHO.

Aodhan, my dear friend, get yourself some time to calm down. Bad things happened, and I'm sad with you about. I'm sure you'll get over this sometimes, and maybe things will change in this game. Rolf has to decide now if he wants to stay in a small niche, or if he wants to occupy a larger niche. We'll see. Money talks. I'm quite confident. Rolf isn't dumb. Maybe a bit slow?

Whenever you return, drop me a line. You know who I am. We'll always have a slot in a deed for you, and at least the mediocre gear we're using ourselves. You'll always be most welcome. Our best wishes to you for your future, may you come back one day.

And a special "big phat hug" to your nephew - we loved him this much!

Have a good time!

Edit: Your nephews place, a starving dog left at his abandoned area. Wife (= his friend) tamed it, to lead it back to the security of our deed, to keep it as a reminiscence of this cute, nice & much loved little participant that we miss so much.

Bad luck. She was ambushed by an evil monster, and this little dog did his job most bravely. He paid her the time to retreat at first, and got eaten by this evil scorpion in an instant. He saved her cute behind. He acted perfectly, did his job as a dog, anything you'd ever expect of a small dog like it. We'll not forget him. Your nephew can be proud of him.

Revenge was taken. The scorpion has been defeated in an epic battle. The poor little dog my rest in peace now, he, your nephew, and you are in our thoughts. Forever.

For those that don't know what I'm talking about:

I invited my Sisters middle son(my nephew) over here to play.  Knowing my sister is very strict about what computer games she allows her teenage son to play, I thought this game would be great for him...building things and working with others in a village.  After a week of playing, my Sister got a look at kchat one day, over his shoulder, and now he is not allowed to play the game any longer.

We miss this cute little guy this much, it was so much fun with him!

Why is it always this way that any cool and nice people are forced to leave in games, and that the [censored] ones are prevailing?

Is it because of the word of saying "the smart one declines"? So that the smart, nice, friendly, helpful ppl are just declining/ leaving, while any sick, malicious, evil-minded hate mongers hold their ground?

:(

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Could not have said it better - bravo!  :)

...

c.) that meanwhile, in 2011, a new generation of gamers has established. And that the vast majority of them isn't interested in PvP at all. These new gamers are older people, women, younger players that want to relax for a few hours after a long day of work. These want to have fun during their limited hours of recreation, they happily accept the challenge of a grinding game like Wurm, they love to create themselves beautiful places, and they have the money to pay for.

The gamers profile has changed. Instead of the nerdy teenagers that once was the majority of customers for a game developer, today the target audience is "mature", "old", some even "aged", and there's a not so small number of "venerables" meanwhile.

And all these don't care at all for "kingdom conflicts", whacking-each-other, badmouthing-each-other. Such they have at work already, day by day, in RL.

...

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Could not have said it better - bravo!  :)

...

c.) that meanwhile, in 2011, a new generation of gamers has established. And that the vast majority of them isn't interested in PvP at all. These new gamers are older people, women, younger players that want to relax for a few hours after a long day of work. These want to have fun during their limited hours of recreation, they happily accept the challenge of a grinding game like Wurm, they love to create themselves beautiful places, and they have the money to pay for.

The gamers profile has changed. Instead of the nerdy teenagers that once was the majority of customers for a game developer, today the target audience is "mature", "old", some even "aged", and there's a not so small number of "venerables" meanwhile.

And all these don't care at all for "kingdom conflicts", whacking-each-other, badmouthing-each-other. Such they have at work already, day by day, in RL.

...

Agreed, downright profound.

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Could not have said it better - bravo!  :)

...

c.) that meanwhile, in 2011, a new generation of gamers has established. And that the vast majority of them isn't interested in PvP at all. These new gamers are older people, women, younger players that want to relax for a few hours after a long day of work. These want to have fun during their limited hours of recreation, they happily accept the challenge of a grinding game like Wurm, they love to create themselves beautiful places, and they have the money to pay for.

The gamers profile has changed. Instead of the nerdy teenagers that once was the majority of customers for a game developer, today the target audience is "mature", "old", some even "aged", and there's a not so small number of "venerables" meanwhile.

And all these don't care at all for "kingdom conflicts", whacking-each-other, badmouthing-each-other. Such they have at work already, day by day, in RL.

...

Agreed, downright profound.

I disagree nothing have changed. When I started play online games back in 2000 the age group was the same as now 8-70 year. PvP have and will always be a niche.

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Actually online gaming in general has seen a shift in overall demographics, and theres more development focus on games that appeal to such. Sure you will still have games explicitly designed to appeal to young male adolescents; however, such titles are becoming fewer.

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Hi,

one thing is safe - the gaming scene these days is very different to the one 10 years ago.

Do I need to say "Angry birds", "Farmville" or even "Minecraft"?

Ages ago the new Doom was THE sensation. Today it's just another release of another 1PShooter. Recipient yawns, and continues to play "Plants & Zombies".

Times have changed. Gaming scene has changed. Even a possible best made Epic server wouldn't get much customers, PvP has been addressed ad nausesam by companys that know what to do, and that did a better job already.

Wurm has no future in this PvP vision. It's a failure already even trying.

Wurm is a great game, and has a lot of potential, but only in the PvE area.

Wouldn't it be a great decision to finally concentrate on the areas where Wurm is strong? Instead of pampering over and over again an already failed idea, effectively alienating a majority of the player base?

Have a good time!

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Could not have said it better - bravo!  :)

...

c.) that meanwhile, in 2011, a new generation of gamers has established. And that the vast majority of them isn't interested in PvP at all. These new gamers are older people, women, younger players that want to relax for a few hours after a long day of work. These want to have fun during their limited hours of recreation, they happily accept the challenge of a grinding game like Wurm, they love to create themselves beautiful places, and they have the money to pay for.

The gamers profile has changed. Instead of the nerdy teenagers that once was the majority of customers for a game developer, today the target audience is "mature", "old", some even "aged", and there's a not so small number of "venerables" meanwhile.

And all these don't care at all for "kingdom conflicts", whacking-each-other, badmouthing-each-other. Such they have at work already, day by day, in RL.

...

Agreed, downright profound.

Indeed, philosophical and true.

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I agree. PVP never will be an attraction for me or anyone I currently play alongside.

We play this game to build and have a community that works together.

WURM is a awesome unique game, please do not make it lesser by adding more PVP enhancements.

I would be happy to stay here in peace and add my money without the drama and conflict of a PVP environment.

:)

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the game would have die without is pve server and what matter to rolf? pvp

what make most of it's income pve and what rolf working on? pvp

what people want ? more content what rolf care about ? pvp

to be succesful in business you give that the buyer want, not what the company or what the only single onwer want.

but no matter how often we say it, no matter how hard we try to convience him rolf only listen to rolf

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c.) that meanwhile, in 2011, a new generation of gamers has established. And that the vast majority of them isn't interested in PvP at all. These new gamers are older people, women, younger players that want to relax for a few hours after a long day of work. These want to have fun during their limited hours of recreation, they happily accept the challenge of a grinding game like Wurm, they love to create themselves beautiful places, and they have the money to pay for.

The gamers profile has changed. Instead of the nerdy teenagers that once was the majority of customers for a game developer, today the target audience is "mature", "old", some even "aged", and there's a not so small number of "venerables" meanwhile.

And all these don't care at all for "kingdom conflicts", whacking-each-other, badmouthing-each-other. Such they have at work already, day by day, in RL.

This is brilliant. And so completely true.

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Rolf obviously is not suffering the same problems as terra nova as he has just appointed his second staff member in only a few months and to quote a modder of a game i play about a similar i quit thread  "people that really want to leave ususally don't post a goodbye message - they just leave. Everything else is just a cry for help"

And to Mongori, you say that only a small minority of wurm players are interested in pvp, how do you know that he is not trying to appeal to more people outside of the current wurm population and believes that epic will increase wurm numbers more than just appeasing current players. I'd trust the person running a successful money making game over an annoyed and frankly selfish player, just because something is not aimed at you or even most players does not make it worthless.

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I think this game has a lot of potential and pvp is dieng out 90 players online during peak hours, in the wild verses the 300-450 players online on freedom? I would have agree that people are more interested in building in peace, and pve. Working together and not having to worry about griefers.

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Hi,

And to Mongori, you say that only a small minority of wurm players are interested in pvp, how do you know that he is not trying to appeal to more people outside of the current wurm population and believes that epic will increase wurm numbers more than just appeasing current players. I'd trust the person running a successful money making game over an annoyed and frankly selfish player, just because something is not aimed at you or even most players does not make it worthless.

Nethriel, I read the graphs of the servers. I talk to many ppl on Freedom. I read this forum. I read a lot of other game related stuff, and I see who is making money, and who not. May I say "Notch" or "MineCraft"?

Times have changed. On line gaming has changed.

Years ago on line games had a completely different audience. We were young, competitive, and often nerdy. Most of us.

Today it's very different. 2ndLife and other games have made on line gaming popular, and widely accepted. Today you'll find mature people playing together with their friends and children, even pensioners, and not just a few.

There's still the young, competitive, and often nerdy ones, but they are a minority now. Money is made meanwhile with those huge numbers that rarely even would consider visiting a forum like this one.

But these have the money, they are ready to spent it, and are legion. Silent legion. Wurm (Freedom) is a perfect game for those people. The player numbers of Freedom speak a clear language, right?

PvP in Wurm, although, is a fail. Yes, I know that theres ppl that love it, and I'd be ready to fight for their Wild server every-time, but let's face the facts - this is a tiny minority.

There's lots of PvP games out there, with stunning graphics, with most developed fighting systems, with vivid communities. Let's say it hard and cruel - Wurm will never be able to compete with these.

So why whack this poor dead Wurm PvP horse over and over now, while neglecting the wishes of a player base that vastly outnumbers the few PvP fiends? And alienating the people that actually pay for the development of the game?

Why not be happy to have received such good acceptance from the PvE people, working on it, providing, for instance, another, better suited big entrance server to further multiply the money earned?

And then, with good money coming in each month, increasing the development team, and continuing of the dreams of Epic?

IMHO Wurm has, at the very moment, a window of opportunity. The Wurm PvE game has the potential to attract a lot of more players, more then enough to establish a constant cash flow to pay for any desired development in the future.

But jamming together all Pve-Players on the small, overcrowded, not made for Freebies, Freedom server, while whacking them with one nerf after the other meant to cater a few Wild players, such will not work.

Wurm would now have the opportunity to grow, and to become profitable:

A new, adjusted entry server. NOW, before anything else!

If the numbers still are growing, another PvE server. The players will pay for it.

Then, and only then, would be time to finish Epic. Any try to do it now, ignoring the facts, will waste this window of opportunity. And will make the probability of Epic ever to be released going to zero.

My 2 iron coins.

Have a good time!

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I agree wholeheartedly with Mongori, while this issue looks divisive it's really not. The numbers are speaking, and things are falling in the wrong direction for what has been made. Yes, PvP would be a good thing to build off of, but not when the demand is high on the other side. Continue working on PvE and put PvP projects on a slower pace until the Collada system is finished and combat can begin to look more visceral. In the current state the people who pay for development are the ones being punished with nerf after nerf, and I'm sorry, but I don't personally believe in the Nerf or Nothing motto.

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Mongori, have you spent time on Wild? You seem to portray it as some entirely competitive sort of nerd-only brawl where you will leave your town only to be instantly killed by twenty 'leet' players who will laugh at you then destroy everything you have ever made. You seem to imply its something that only 17 years old males who have never been outside will enjoy. It's not anything of the sort.

Not everyone is out constantly beating random people to death; unless you place your deed in the middle of a war zone you can safely wander around the area most of the time. Occasionally you may encounter an enemy in your local, but they are not going to be instantly in your face and destroying you - a lot of the time the chances are that you will be able to get away. When I was on Wild I spent a lot of time out hunting and woodcutting around a town that wasn't exactly in the heart of the kingdom, and I never once met an enemy in local while doing these things.

Not everyone on Wild is a 17 year old male waiting to trash talk anyone they can find. In fact, many of the people you will encounter will be quite the opposite. In the town I was in (Eden, MR) there were plenty of people of all different types, including (shock-horror) females and couples. Most people wandered around the town and area doing whatever they liked. The deed was raided twice in my stay, one time successfully and the other unsuccessfully, but the deed could easily have been closer to the capital and heart of the kingdom, where it would have been even safer. In almost all cases PvP is optional.

Obviously PvP servers aren't for everyone, but I think it is for more people than you might think. The current server, Wild, is pretty broken - this is partly the reason many people who would potentially play there don't try it out, and many who do leave. But the recent changes and Epic can bring life and most importantly interest back into this side of Wurm from the ones who are interested in the possibility and thrill of a big threat and or goals and teamwork that the Wurm's PvP servers have: these are things that the PvP servers have to offer your 'new generation of gamers'.

At the same time EVE Online is very popular a mostly PvP focused game. Wurm's PvP done correctly could be at least as popular as EVE's is, which is no small number.

A new, adjusted entry server. NOW, before anything else!

I am not sure what you mean, you claim to have looked at the graphs but you don't see that removing GV was one of the best business decisions Rolf has made, and you want to bring GV back?

If the numbers still are growing, another PvE server. The players will pay for it.

Rolf has 3 servers, each of which can take 2 Wurm 'worlds'. So the server is there, just waiting for Rolf to set it up. How to set it up still remains a question, some people want a premium only server, some people want a premium and non-premium server, I don't think we have had a definitive discussion on which way a new Freedom server should be taken yet, and until we do it would be silly to rush ahead and make a big mistake.

And many are making out that Rolf has been doing nothing for the Freedom side of things, when he was being doing a lot of work on combat, including its PvE side. The recent difficulty increase as well as tweaks to mechanics have made on of Freedoms features a lot more interesting.

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Some will see the recent creature buff as a shaft for PvE. But raising the difficulty can actually help to keep fights interesting at higher levels. Past 60/70FS there was not much left except some champ trolls that actually threatened the fighters.

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Hi,

one thing is safe - the gaming scene these days is very different to the one 10 years ago.

Do I need to say "Angry birds", "Farmville" or even "Minecraft"?

Ages ago the new Doom was THE sensation. Today it's just another release of another 1PShooter. Recipient yawns, and continues to play "Plants & Zombies".

Times have changed. Gaming scene has changed. Even a possible best made Epic server wouldn't get much customers, PvP has been addressed ad nausesam by companys that know what to do, and that did a better job already.

Wurm has no future in this PvP vision. It's a failure already even trying.

Wurm is a great game, and has a lot of potential, but only in the PvE area.

Wouldn't it be a great decision to finally concentrate on the areas where Wurm is strong? Instead of pampering over and over again an already failed idea, effectively alienating a majority of the player base?

Have a good time!

Never use the words, Epic and Farmville in the same paragraph again. ever.

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With wilders often using the whole "we dont fight that often" defence, and then having such low numbers compared to freedom

Rolf should just cut his losses and remove pvp all together =/. You're on a pvp server, but don't pvp? Then you don't get to comment about being a tough wilder, you're a carebear in it's literal sense.

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Hi,

And to Mongori, you say that only a small minority of wurm players are interested in pvp, how do you know that he is not trying to appeal to more people outside of the current wurm population and believes that epic will increase wurm numbers more than just appeasing current players. I'd trust the person running a successful money making game over an annoyed and frankly selfish player, just because something is not aimed at you or even most players does not make it worthless.

Nethriel, I read the graphs of the servers. I talk to many ppl on Freedom. I read this forum. I read a lot of other game related stuff, and I see who is making money, and who not. May I say "Notch" or "MineCraft"?

Times have changed. On line gaming has changed.

Years ago on line games had a completely different audience. We were young, competitive, and often nerdy. Most of us.

Today it's very different. 2ndLife and other games have made on line gaming popular, and widely accepted. Today you'll find mature people playing together with their friends and children, even pensioners, and not just a few.

There's still the young, competitive, and often nerdy ones, but they are a minority now. Money is made meanwhile with those huge numbers that rarely even would consider visiting a forum like this one.

But these have the money, they are ready to spent it, and are legion. Silent legion. Wurm (Freedom) is a perfect game for those people. The player numbers of Freedom speak a clear language, right?

PvP in Wurm, although, is a fail. Yes, I know that theres ppl that love it, and I'd be ready to fight for their Wild server every-time, but let's face the facts - this is a tiny minority.

There's lots of PvP games out there, with stunning graphics, with most developed fighting systems, with vivid communities. Let's say it hard and cruel - Wurm will never be able to compete with these.

So why whack this poor dead Wurm PvP horse over and over now, while neglecting the wishes of a player base that vastly outnumbers the few PvP fiends? And alienating the people that actually pay for the development of the game?

Why not be happy to have received such good acceptance from the PvE people, working on it, providing, for instance, another, better suited big entrance server to further multiply the money earned?

And then, with good money coming in each month, increasing the development team, and continuing of the dreams of Epic?

IMHO Wurm has, at the very moment, a window of opportunity. The Wurm PvE game has the potential to attract a lot of more players, more then enough to establish a constant cash flow to pay for any desired development in the future.

But jamming together all Pve-Players on the small, overcrowded, not made for Freebies, Freedom server, while whacking them with one nerf after the other meant to cater a few Wild players, such will not work.

Wurm would now have the opportunity to grow, and to become profitable:

A new, adjusted entry server. NOW, before anything else!

If the numbers still are growing, another PvE server. The players will pay for it.

Then, and only then, would be time to finish Epic. Any try to do it now, ignoring the facts, will waste this window of opportunity. And will make the probability of Epic ever to be released going to zero.

My 2 iron coins.

Have a good time!

Wow dude, you certainly have a vendetta against Wurms PVP. I can understand Freedomers feeling left behind a bit because Rolfs latest updates have been focused on balancing PVP but I think you are taking it a bit to the extreme.

You say the young competitive 'PVPers' are the minority in gaming now-a-days, how do you explain Starcraft 2 and the HUGE ESPORTS explosion all over the entire world? I think you have your facts wrong. People will always be competitive, no matter what, it is a driving force in all human beings. Games like 2nd Life have just made gaming more accessible to people who were already not 'Young and competitive'. The gaming audience now-a-days doesn't have less young and competitive PVPers it just has more Mature and PVE oriented people.

You may think that you are helping Wurm but in fact you are hurting it by further dividing it into Wilders and Freedomers. We all play wurmonline, we all love wurmonline. We need to find a way to balance both the PVP and PVE aspects of the game. Wurm is a crafting/terraforming game with pvp aspects and is wonderfully unique in every way. Stop needlessly drawing a line in the sand please.

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The very nature of Wurm means that PvP is quite different to many of the games out there. In all your instance games where death means re-spawn and carry on the primary and overriding focus is the actual combat. Little else matters in the end.

This is not true of Wurm, this is a properly persistent world where PvP has more significant consequences. At the individual level, loss of a little skill and an affinity plus all your gear. That PvP is limited to the individual level is actually quite a rarity. PvP here is within the context of a larger war. Often the PvP is part of a siege, the level of which you do not see at all in most games. There have been sieges which have spanned weeks, war zones where enemies have entrenched and fought for months. Where tactical decisions have had to be made and every element of Wurm game play brought to bear to try and bring about a victory.

The individual player vs player combat may not look much but put it in context. JK and MR building up war deeds facing off, one sallies out and tries to break down the enemies defences, catapulting buildings, charging onto the deed, trying to break the enemies morale. Tunnels mined for flanking purposes and sometimes the fighting happens in the tunnels (scary... many don't like it when this happens). Traps and tricks, flanking and ambushing, it all happens.

The last bit, Wurm is persistant, the consequences of your PvP actions are the same. You can visit battle grounds, sometimes with the ruins of the attackers/defenders still visible. The territorial fight they were a part of resolved and moved on.

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Indeed the aftermaths of a protracted fight in Wurm leave persistent devastation over fairly large areas.

EDIT: ... which the game landscape goes about growing back over time where it can.

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We all play wurmonline, we all love wurmonline. We need to find a way to balance both the PVP and PVE aspects of the game. Wurm is a crafting/terraforming game with pvp aspects and is wonderfully unique in every way. Stop needlessly drawing a line in the sand please.

Quote for truth.

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