KOS on Freedom

[Lancelot 765]

I think the abiltiy to KOS at will is  a veiled form of griefing. If you want to be anti-social why are you playing an MMO ? It defeats the objective somewhat.

Mayors [and select village elders] should retain the power to set a KOS on those persons who are Actively disrupting play or being a nuisance It is their right to do so. Their deed after all. I also think that the mayor should have more powers to punish a thief  within the village, other than just a KOS, but thats another thread.

KoSing one or two individuals is hardly anti-social Lancelot. Saying KoS at will is anti social is like saying we should allow murderers and thieves to keep a copy of our keys to get in and out at will, oh and lets make sure they can't cut, bruise or injure themselves.

And besides all that, You can still play socially with a large kos list. Its called "me and my citizens only". So no its not a veiled form of griefing, but like anything in any game if it can be used to griefers will.

Don't gimp the rights of the majority because moderation isn't being done properly against griefers.

[Aureate 18]

I agree with Lance and Ivan. What's the point of putting every poor sap that appears in your local on KOS but play an MMO? I myself have major roads and a canal running through my deeds.. I can't see doing that it just doesn't seem right. I say if you really want to protect your area fence it in that's what the walls  are there for. You don't use KOS as a deterrent because your too lazy to build a real one. I chose option 2.

[Myriad 52]

Even though KOS can (and therefore WILL) be abused, I don't think asking a GM to judge on each individual instance of it would be productive. The GMs would be driven mad, and it would always remain an area where word against word would have way too much of an impact.

Better to leave it as it is, I think.

When it is abused consistently, it'll become clear fast enough and interrupted highways could be highlighted to the powers that be. Rather than every single case.

[Bachus 462]

Yes leave it as it is.  The people on my KOS list are ones that have stolen/griefed me + known offenders in the community. If we had to explain that would mean thieves would get at least one shot at everyone before they could be KOS'd. which would mean a much longer time before they were 'inconvienced' enough to stop.

For instance ; there was a group that moved into our area and began taking every cart, boat, and materiels they could. Once word got out and they were KOS'd on everyones property around them they created alts and started over but were more respectful the second time.

If we had to wait to get hit then explain why it would have taken months instead of 2 weeks!

[Robfox 1]

KOS at will, enough of this carebearing

[bdew 2,462]

Player A has a deed, Player B plants a new deed. Player A feels his view has been ruined and KoS's everyone on Player B's deed.

I am sure KoS was not ment for this.

So KoS him back and don't go on his deed? Why is that a problem?

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

How about this then:

The KoS settings for each individual comes with a mandatory "Motive" field. Mayors will fill this out this field when KoSing someone and it will then publicly visible somehow (chat command? guards shout at the the offender in local when he/she enters the deed?). Those who feel the motive isn't right can dispute the KoS with the aid of a GM, upon which the mayor will present evidence of offense caused. If none can be found the GM can void the KoS, or something.

However I don't think restricting KoS usage is good in any way; it works nicely the way we have it now. Imposing restrictions on KoS threatens the sovereignty and integrity of a deed. Yes, I think it's an arse move to KoS everyone because you'd rather be alone, but I fear with restricted/conditional KoS we might get a situation where a mayor is unable to keep sneaky griefers off his deed because the "victims" use the KoS restrictions to their advantage.

Honestly, the rare problematic situations that arise as a result of free KoS can be reported to a GM. I think we'll have the least problems if we stick with what we have.

[bdew 2,462]

upon which the mayor will present evidence of offense caused

Ah so now i also need to keep "evidence" (which is supposed to be what exactly? both screenshots and text logs can be edited so can't be real evidence) for indefinite time on every idiot i KoS?

-100

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

upon which the mayor will present evidence of offense caused

Ah so now i also need to keep "evidence" (which is supposed to be what exactly? both screenshots and text logs can be edited so can't be real evidence) for indefinite time on every idiot i KoS?

-100

Event logs, screenshots, PM logs if you contacted the person you KoS'd before you did (which should be standard procedure). While editing logs and screenshots is possible, I don't think it has ever happened in reality except perhaps in extreme situations such as where a perma-ban was at stake.

But like I said, restricting KoS seems like a bad idea. Two people having a personal conflict to deal with in private is perfectly normal, even on a PvE server. I think your example of two neighbors KoSing eachother just because they don't get along is an acceptable situation. We don't all have to be friends.

[Procne 0]

This only adds more work for GMs. It would be better to just remove KoS from freedom, since noone can do anything bad on deed anyway, so KoS is no form of protection

[grizzlyadams 0]

KOS at will, enough of this carebearing

Well said, stop your "crying" people.

[Top 0]

I pay for my guards so i should be able to kos who i want, for what ever reason like i just dont like the person. there should be limits of course like no traps many wont abuse the system and it will show up if its being abused, gm's shouldnt get involved in kos disputes till say 8+ people complain in a smallish time frame, even then they shouldnt force removel of kos unless the deed is the only access through.

If you dont like being kos'd ask the deed owner to remove you, if they go tough blahblah accept it and avoid the deed or be prepared to defend yourself next time you step on that deed,

[Procne 0]

I pay for my guards so i should be able to kos who i want, for what ever reason like i just dont like the person.

Why exactly? On freedom those guards protect you from monsters, they can't protect you from people, since people cannot do anything bad on your deed. At most they can be used for griefing and unleashing vengeance on people you don't like.

there should be limits of course like no traps many wont abuse the system and it will show up if its being abused, gm's shouldnt get involved in kos disputes till say 8+ people complain in a smallish time frame, even then they shouldnt force removel of kos unless the deed is the only access through.

Again work for the GMs, why?

If you dont like being kos'd ask the deed owner to remove you, if they go tough blahblah accept it and avoid the deed or be prepared to defend yourself next time you step on that deed,

If you like getting people killed then go to Wild

In short: guards are not a form of protection from other people, they can only be used as a tool for griefing. Does it really fit the spirit of freedom where people can freely build and live without fear from other people? Shouldn't it also mean that you can safely pass through unblocked areas without fear of being killed?

[Pashka 707]

If you do not want to be on KOS, then do not do anything that would warrant someone putting you there.  If someone does, then stay away from their deed or be prepared to deal with the guard(s) there.  I do not always have a guard hired but I do have a list of known griefers and a few others.  If my asking these people to leave the deed does not work (in my opinion griefing), then I will hire the guard and they will ask them to leave not as nicely.

Yes, I know I could build a fence around the deed to stop anyone from stopping by but that isn't how I wish to play.  I do enjoy when someone stops by to say hello and generally they get the nickle tour and even a meal sometimes.

[Othob Rithol 700]

KOS at will, with GM investigation when there is accusation of "KOS griefing" like blocking an existing highway, sealing off the only clay nearby, preventing someone access to their own deed or corpse, dropping a deed for no reason other than to KOS etc. If someone is griefing you by any game mechanic it's a GM issue - regardless if it's KOS or continuous fart emotes.

And this nonsense about how people are being griefed by being on someone's home deed's KOS or how there isn't anything people can do to grief a deed or that KOS is against the spirit of a social game is just "I feel I can tell you how you have to play". If you are KOSed on a deed that does not include a highway...then don't go on it. My guard is there to drive off the people that are known to go looking for security holes, people that sit in my local and harass me, people that know full well they are NOT welcome at my house and people that think it's fun to drop crap all over my deed since Othob is a clean freak. It's not there to steal fs from me. My deed, by they way, intentionally stops exactly at the road.

Best two ideas in the thread:

[o]Warning when entering the perimeter of a deed you are KOS'ed on.

[o]Can't even enter a deed you are KOS'ed on (the definitive solution).

[Procne 0]

If you do not want to be on KOS, then do not do anything that would warrant someone putting you there.  If someone does, then stay away from their deed or be prepared to deal with the guard(s) there.  I do not always have a guard hired but I do have a list of known griefers and a few others.  If my asking these people to leave the deed does not work (in my opinion griefing), then I will hire the guard and they will ask them to leave not as nicely.

Yes, I know I could build a fence around the deed to stop anyone from stopping by but that isn't how I wish to play.  I do enjoy when someone stops by to say hello and generally they get the nickle tour and even a meal sometimes.

Not everyone is so reasonable. I have been put on KoS once and killed after entering some deed. Without any reason or explanation other than being called a thief.

And there it goes - skill loss, corpse run and having to argue with deed owner to reclaim corpse, just because he felt like putting me on KoS or because he took me for someone else.

Othob, you know very well that guards will not protect you from people spamming in local or dropping stuff on your deed. If you don't fence your deed and if they are determined they can easily pop in, drop stuff and run. Local is bigger than your deed. If someone wants to grief you in this way then they will do it regardless of guards. And what security holes are you talking about? What else can they do?

Anyway, guards are the only way of killing players by another player on freedom. They are easy to abuse, and generally GMs will not investigate because of the rule "you can kill (sorry, meant KoS, but what's the difference?) anyone on your deed for whatever reason".

Now, having said that I will actually be afraid to enter any deed, just because I have different opinions about KoS than most people here and they can easily put me on KoS list.

[grizzlyadams 0]

Now, having said that I will actually be afraid to enter any deed, just because I have different opinions about KoS than most people here and they can easily put me on KoS list.

KOS'd

[Procne 0]

Now, having said that I will actually be afraid to enter any deed, just because I have different opinions about KoS than most people here and they can easily put me on KoS list.

KOS'd

If you do not want to be on KOS, then do not do anything that would warrant someone putting you there. 

Like not talking on forums and not presenting opposite opinions?

[InfinitePossibility 0]

I KoS well known griefers and people that behave as idiots (or bad trolls) in kchat...

;D

[Tritus 2]

certain people are land grabbers,  according to freedom i kind of consider kos'ing people on your deed griefing if there is no reason indeed for it. If the deed owner just wants to be anti social it should be up to them to put up signs or wall off their deed from "intruders" or warning signs. It is their ability to kos whoever they want.. If this Inhibits travel, I dont remember if the deed is on a main road, thats a griefing violation there.

Certain people are griefers and run around the server having no intention other than to cause trouble. Other people seem to do so inadvertently but are equally a nuisance.

Both waste the time of paying players who are left with the task or repairing buildings and replacing slaughtered livestock and stolen items etc etc blah blah ..

Where I live we tend to help each other when we identify griefers and those people go on all our KoS lists. KoS, as far as I am concerned, is there to protect people who have invested the time, energy and cash into setting up a deed but I see no reason to waste GM time arbitrating KoS.

A deed is a deed. If I didnt want you on my land you have more than enough time to run off when you hear the warning horns blare.

[Othob Rithol 700]

Othob, you know very well that guards will not protect you from people spamming in local or dropping stuff on your deed. If you don't fence your deed and if they are determined they can easily pop in, drop stuff and run. Local is bigger than your deed. If someone wants to grief you in this way then they will do it regardless of guards. And what security holes are you talking about? What else can they do?

Yes, they can do all of that. And when they decide to sit up on top of the fence over my mine door and make farting noises, I can have a Templar chase them to the edge of the tiles I have purchased control over from the game. There are specific people that I don't want to give access to my tiles under any means because I know they will go looking for holes - looking for an unlocked gate, trying to mine into my on-deed mine forge room, or abuse some exploit they have discovered to do something we all thought impossible (I've reported one of those OMG that's impossible exploits myself).

I don't want to have to rely on the moderation staff to deter troublemakers, and I don't want to have to burden them with endless calls to do so. Instead Rolf gave us the ability to declare people persona non grata, but only on tiles we have purchased. The only flaw in the current rules about it are that the GM staff won't pursue deed abuse for griefing officially but I do know of one situation a GM did step in where a player deeded over a highway and started KOSing everyone.

Likewise I'm KOS'ed a few deeds whose owners I've let know how I really think of them. Guess what?...I don't go on their deeds. I'm not welcome so I stay out.

Now like I posted before, Ecrir's change (you just can't enter) is also a great idea because it remedies the violence, provides better coverage and removes several of the ways to abuse it. I also like the idea of a warning you will be attacked as an alternate. Those seem to be things you would support too from what you have said, or are we just here to argue?

[Procne 0]

Othob, you know very well that guards will not protect you from people spamming in local or dropping stuff on your deed. If you don't fence your deed and if they are determined they can easily pop in, drop stuff and run. Local is bigger than your deed. If someone wants to grief you in this way then they will do it regardless of guards. And what security holes are you talking about? What else can they do?

Yes, they can do all of that. And when they decide to sit up on top of the fence over my mine door and make farting noises, I can have a Templar chase them to the edge of the tiles I have purchased control over from the game. There are specific people that I don't want to give access to my tiles under any means because I know they will go looking for holes - looking for an unlocked gate, trying to mine into my on-deed mine forge room, or abuse some exploit they have discovered to do something we all thought impossible (I've reported one of those OMG that's impossible exploits myself).

I don't want to have to rely on the moderation staff to deter troublemakers, and I don't want to have to burden them with endless calls to do so. Instead Rolf gave us the ability to declare people persona non grata, but only on tiles we have purchased. The only flaw in the current rules about it are that the GM staff won't pursue deed abuse for griefing officially but I do know of one situation a GM did step in where a player deeded over a highway and started KOSing everyone.

Likewise I'm KOS'ed a few deeds whose owners I've let know how I really think of them. Guess what?...I don't go on their deeds. I'm not welcome so I stay out.

Now like I posted before, Ecrir's change (you just can't enter) is also a great idea because it remedies the violence, provides better coverage and removes several of the ways to abuse it. I also like the idea of a warning you will be attacked as an alternate. Those seem to be things you would support too from what you have said, or are we just here to argue?

No, I would support the first idea (no entrance on deed). I don't see how is the second supposed to work.

Anyway, I'm all for removing any ways/mechanics of killing people by other people on freedom and giving them other ways of dealing with such people - ignore, denying entrance to a deed would work fine.

[Maximilus 0]

KoS at will just like the game rules said. I pay for the tiles so I should be entitle to choose who I want walking on them. To the OP, this thread is meaningless, look at your own poll.

[MasterGeldrin 0]

I think the abiltiy to KOS at will is  a veiled form of griefing. If you want to be anti-social why are you playing an MMO ? It defeats the objective somewhat.

Mayors [and select village elders] should retain the power to set a KOS on those persons who are Actively disrupting play or being a nuisance It is their right to do so. Their deed after all. I also think that the mayor should have more powers to punish a thief  within the village, other than just a KOS, but thats another thread.

KoSing one or two individuals is hardly anti-social Lancelot. Saying KoS at will is anti social is like saying we should allow murderers and thieves to keep a copy of our keys to get in and out at will, oh and lets make sure they can't cut, bruise or injure themselves.

And besides all that, You can still play socially with a large kos list. Its called "me and my citizens only". So no its not a veiled form of griefing, but like anything in any game if it can be used to griefers will.

Don't gimp the rights of the majority because moderation isn't being done properly against griefers.

Dont mix gameplay with reality. If a thief was to enter your home outside of the game I would'nt expect you  to alloow them to do as they wish. But ofc you realise you cant attack them anyway, until they enter your bedroom.

My point here was why should a mayor be allowed to randomly KOS anyone without some ort of justification or explanation ? Its THAT ability that is tantamount to griefing.

I get your point, but in those situations altering game mechanics will do nothing but gimp those who use it correctly. Its trading one /dev report for another. (Ie the mayor having to /dev a motive for each and every KOS compared to the smaller amount of temporary KoS's)

Its less work for GM's to deal with "I've been KoS'd and don't know why /dev's" that it would be to filter through every single KoS made with "Validations" because in the end only the flimsiest of "validations" would result in it not sticking.

And anyway you say don't mix gameplay with reality... well the people who have paid real money for silver to buy that deed have just mixed reality + gameplay. That person has paid for the right to do what they want with their deed. The only exception is if their deed straddles a main road (which it shouldn't really anyway).

If you've been set on KoS on a deed, you shouldn't really be finding out anyway as you shouldn't be going on other peoples deeds, locked up or not. Nice and simple.

I don't want to have to rely on the moderation staff to deter troublemakers, and I don't want to have to burden them with endless calls to do so. Instead Rolf gave us the ability to declare people persona non grata, but only on tiles we have purchased.

[Mukantagara 1]

Yes, they can do all of that. And when they decide to sit up on top of the fence over my mine door and make farting noises, I can have a Templar chase them to the edge of the tiles I have purchased control over from the game........**Snip**

Full ack, and nothing to add.