Freedom sheep, or why the sky is falling

[Othob Rithol 700]

I do find it rather funny that on the one hand national parks are being suggested to save some wilderness, but on the other a second freedom server is being poo-pooed and people being called spoiled for not buying up all the wilderness around them. It's some of the very same individuals that pushed to have freeplayers added to Freedom - the ones that told objectors like me that they were all wrong about the effects it would have and it as vital for the growth of the game - that are now telling us we're the ones at fault because the changes did happen and we didn't like it. And it is imperative to those same people to now oppose the creation of a second freedom server even though we all know for certainty that overcrowding is an issue on a variety of issues from deed space, to animal caps, to server lag.

Whereas for those few of use fortunate enough to have flying avatars there is undoubtedly plenty of space to be seen, everybody else (like me) has to pretty much live on the ground level and does not know that across that ridge is a wide plateau of grass and olive trees. Wurm is becoming very much too cosmopolitan for my tastes. It bears very little semblence to the game I joined so long ago. The world is rapidly ceasing to be about little villages scattered in a wide wilderness teaming with game and monsters and is rapidly becoming a game of rural land ownership, highway off-ramps and condominiums.

I can not agree with the frothing rhetoric being thrown out by some supporters of Freedom2, but I also can not help but be certain that a second Freedom server is good for the game's growth. We've had little trouble filling this server to its apparent capacity. Is this profitable to Rolf? No doubt. Is there really the belief among the nay-sayers that the next server, if given the same access to new blood, will not fill rapidly as well? Is not twice the profit better?

Never, ever underestimate an idea because you don't like the person expressing it.

[KaiH 1,126]

Never, ever underestimate an idea because you don't like the person expressing it.

[spellcast 983]

dont get me wrong othob, i'm all for a second freedom server, and i DO think we will need one shortly, ( i think its still just a touch too early to have one now and i DO want to see what epic opening does to population first, even tho i'm fairly sure that it wont draw THAT much off of freedom)

but by the same token, a new server will not solve any overcrowding issues around the spawn deed. it will take all of a week for the complaints to start over again on the new server.

lance, I also agree that the area around the howl should have been undeedable. Several people suggested it, I was one of them. It was not done for various reasons.

As to the world of small villages and wide open spaces... wellll. Much as i hate to say it, i dont think thats viable for wurms future as much as it might be desireable.

Rolf has allways said, for as long as i remember, that his goal was a steady 500 concurrent logins and a few thoulsand active players per server. As people play, land gets developed, and untouched areas DO get fewer and farther between. That doesnt change the fact that as some players leave, thier areas decay, and they leave usable land behind, but many people dont want usable land, they want perfect land, untouched wilderness that they can shape to thier own needs. (that is the joy of wurm, maybe we need some sort of erosion as has been suggested many times in the past to remove terraforming over time, but the potential for disaster with adding that is... well.)

I see both sides of the issue, but there is a lot of BS being thrown around in this thread, and i wont just ignore it either.  There is absolutely zero danger of the whole of freedom being turned into a new GV. the server has a major advantage that GV didnt, the ability to deed, and the ability for players to remove decayed areas.

I have admitted, in multiple posts, that the area around the howl is densely settled, but that does not change the fact that there is lots of other area that is much less densely settled.  A few months ago mr-b suggested multiple spawn points to help spread the density out, and the resulting flamefest was over the top.

"we dont want the mess here by us"  was a common statement,

"the new spawns will get just as messy" was another (i'm paraphrasing here)

yet both of those beliefs and feelings apply just as much to a new freedom server as they do to new spawn points on the existing one.

A new server would most likely have the following chain of events.

1- new server opens, players land, spawn, and spread out, some travel a long distance, but most probably go as short a distance as they can because they are eager to get started.

2- a short time later, everything close to the new spawn has some form of settlement, it would probably be worse because there are very few developed roads to help spread the population out.

2- the complaints start up again.

also, i didnt suggest national parks, i asked what peoples reaction to them would be, and urman fairly well summed up the reply i expected.

My first reaction is that such blocked out areas aren't in keeping with a sandbox.

[Urman 1]

The world is rapidly ceasing to be about little villages scattered in a wide wilderness teaming with game and monsters and is rapidly becoming a game of rural land ownership, highway off-ramps and condominiums.

In my opinion, three things affect the spread/sprawl of players from villages to this "rural land ownership":

1.  No-decay roads

2.  Slow-decay guard towers which provide high levels of defense for little recurring cost (fine for Wild)

3.  Slow-decay off-deed fencing which allows fencing off anything that doesn't move

If players want scattered villages in a wilderness, rather than the farmville we are approaching, then make off deed roads, towers, and construction have a larger material and time cost to maintain.  The progression of development on Freedom is similar to what I saw in my time on JKH - we just have a bigger population so I think the pace is more rapid.

Changing the off-deed decay would (I think) encourage development from coastlines inward, as water routes would not be affected by decay.  Settlements might be built closer together if road maintenance is an issue, and roads into the wilderness would be dirt tracks.  Settlements would be built in the wilderness to exploit resources, that is the nature of Wurmians, but the impact of these deeds would not extend as far.

(I really think we need erosion as well, to return unused land to the wilderness that makes Wurm so appealing.)

[Othob Rithol 700]

I completely agree Urman.

[Pashka 707]

I agree with alot of what Urman says.

I do not agree with the erosion.  We have alot of land on our deed that is in various stages of terraforming.  I do not want to wake up one morning and see my house sitting sideways or my farms going up the side of the mountain.  Yes I know that anything that has fences houses etc shouldn't be touched.  But I also know stuff happens.  I, also, do not have our entire deed fenced.  Alot of it would appear as unused or under construction.

If a player wants 'erosion', he can take dirt that is in one spot and move it to another and completely change what was there when he stopped.  I know most do not want to do that.  But that to me is part of the charm of the game.  Being able to see an area and then watch as it is completely changed.

[Othob Rithol 700]

Well there could of course be an on-deed exclusion to erosion. The intention is to recycle abandoned sites and smooth out random odd terrraforming.

[Xianruflux 59]

Rolf has allways said, for as long as i remember, that his goal was a steady 500 concurrent logins and a few thoulsand active players per server.

[Ecrir 887]

I agree with most of Urman's ideas, just erosion sounds bad to me. I can already see it change the map into one that's mostly flat with rocky mountains, with the dirt flowing into the oceans. If it does go wrong like that then it's to late to reverse it.

dont get me wrong othob, i'm all for a second freedom server, and i DO think we will need one shortly, ( i think its still just a touch too early to have one now and i DO want to see what epic opening does to population first, even tho i'm fairly sure that it wont draw THAT much off of freedom)

[Mystecore 0]

The whole 'wait till Epic' thing would be fine, if there was ANY indication as to when it's likely to appear. The past two Novembers were given as possible dates and well, it's almost July, again. :S

I understand the need to get it right, and dedicating the time to doing so, but as Ecrir points out this is a time to capitalise on the current influx of players. Saying that, Rolf isn't known for his foreplanning...

[Hellaciouss 0]

Why a second freedom? Why can't freedom just be expanded? Is there a hard limt to how big maps can't be?

Because the server is not just overcrowded on the map, we have issues with item counts, animal caps, and generic server load [=finishing lag].

This would be an optimization problem then, would it not? Always a way to improve code.

[Ecrir 887]

Why a second freedom? Why can't freedom just be expanded? Is there a hard limt to how big maps can't be?

Because the server is not just overcrowded on the map, we have issues with item counts, animal caps, and generic server load [=finishing lag].

This would be an optimization problem then, would it not? Always a way to improve code.

both code and hardware optimizations have been done a lot on these things already. But even with optimizations in code there are still limits since the hardware can only do so much. And there isn't always a way to improve code, at one point you simply can't make it any faster and can only throw better hardware at it, or divide the load over multiple servers.

[Ryshad 26]

This argument goes round and round but I don't see any real resolution...there are always going to be the people who want a fresh server now (regardless of the possible implications) and those that don't (regardless of the possible impact on freedom01) and whatever happens you aren't going to please all the people all the time.

I have seen a few ideas on the suggestions thread that might make the "less desirable" spots more palatable; The vast swathes of unsettled land that have been mentioned here are generally inland and so have very poor access to water and clay. If these were more readily available it would remove the largest detriment to moving inland. Someone already suggested making clay from dirt and water (thus giving dirt ql a purpose). Some form of dowsing rod, made from branches perhaps, that serves as a crude version of pendulum as new players are unlikely to have ready access to one to locate a spot for a well.

As has been pointed out already, a new server would suffer the same fate as the current one. Yes, it would ease the problems of item count, player numbers and animal herds, but unless it was hand crafted so that MOST of the land was "perfect" for settlement (ie hundreds of archipelagos with their own clay and tar spots)  it will eventually end up like Freedom01...all the best spots settled and those who didn't end up in them complaining that there is no good land left.

Rather than defer the problem, wouldn't it serve the current server, and any future ones, to tackle the cause of the problem? Assess the factors that make people less inclined to move away from the coast and find some balanced and suitable way to address them. That has to be more productive than "I want Freedom02 now!" vs "NO! Freedom01 is fine"

Just my two pennies worth

[bdew 2,462]

Assess the factors that make people less inclined to move away from the coast and find some balanced and suitable way to address them.

One of the core factors is transportation i think, sailing a big ship is much easier than going with a large cart, more so if you need to move 20k+ volume units.  Maybe adding rivers on the new server is a good idea. It will be problematic for land travelers unless we get real bridges tho, which will happen in like 10 years.

[Mongori 0]

Hi,

you are right, all, and I'm getting tired.

We're far from the Howl, but the landscape around us is destroyed in a crazy speed. Every other day a new newcomer arrives, sees trees, and starts to chop 'em down to build a shack. That then is left before even finished. In our perimeter. We'll replant, yep. But is it really the basic of this game to over and over replant trees that will be chopped again at even mature status?

Freedom, where we live, doesn't have much more of what we bought - a wilderness where you'd get eaten by wolves. No wolves anymore nearby, too much deeds and shacks. Actually we have less spawns now then before the spawn tweak, due to overpopulation ...

And no wilderness anymore. As mentioned, we're at about 50% radius from the Howl. Anything not enchanted will be chopped, no matter if it would make sense, even olive trees. Any small area will get a shack on it, no matter how little sense it will make. The people coming just don't know, and after discussing this with the first 50 you'll get tired of it.

I'm tired of it. I didn't come to Freedom, didn't pay to have the same trouble as on GV. I might easily drop my Freedom stuff, retreat to GV that now has the freedom Freedom lost. Yes, we still have our GV accounts.

I'm tired of it. I'm tired of reading of reading the same BS again and again of ppl happy enough to have settled at the very server edges. Of ppl, that have no idea of what happens, but that are telling me what is wrong in my perception. I'll laugh at you, when the locusts will have reached your place, in maybe 6 months plus?

I know, I am not the most diplomatic one. I know, I'll have not much chances to change something, because my approach will repel many. But read what others say about, plz.

We need:

• Another newbie starting server, call it Freedom002 or whatever. With better, more newbie-like landscape and less dangerous mobs. With different spawn points like in GV. To give them newcomers, that we expect to prem, a reason to do it. Freedom001 is the most bad choice for this!
  
• To recreate Freedom001 as a Prem only server, before even more of the old time, long time paying players leave for good!
  

I hope somebody will understand.

Have a good time!

[Procne 0]

Rather than defer the problem, wouldn't it serve the current server, and any future ones, to tackle the cause of the problem? Assess the factors that make people less inclined to move away from the coast and find some balanced and suitable way to address them. That has to be more productive than "I want Freedom02 now!" vs "NO! Freedom01 is fine"

Just my two pennies worth

Well, why do people want to live near coast:

- easy access to water / fish

- easy access to clay and/or sand

- nice view

- possibility of building boats + water transport

What does living inland provide?

- easier to get lost

- hard to get clay, and water until you build well

- hard to get fish and use water transport

- more animals to hunt

- less crowd

My guess is that if there were some precious resources inland then some people might decide to live there and trade those resources for clay

[Mongori 0]

Hi,

already lost the topic:

"Freedom sheep, or why the sky is falling"

Some of us are complaining. I'm not alone, quite some are proving my posts. But now, we, here, have a problem: There's ppl that simply dispute this claim. Freedom people.

Are they actually Freedom deed owners, or Trolls from Wild? Do they really mean what they claim, or are they just "forum warriors"? Or have they deeds really way beyond reach, and are still able to enjoy what we have lost, and enjoy the game?

I don't understand. Judging from our area the situation is outta control since long. Whoever is Prem on Freedom is cheated/ scammed. Might be that in areas like Aken it's still a bit better? Othob?

Realizing the current situation at my deeds I'm thinking of dropping them and retreating to GV (free play!). At least there I'd be quite save to not to have to defend my property day in day out, and the perimeter, over, over, and over.

As I have to do meanwhile, on Freedom.

To be honest, I see claims like "enough room still", "here's nothing yet" and such as offensive. They explain my /my neighbors view and experience as nada, and tell us what we should feel.

Without having even the smallest view of what happens. What jerks selfish ignorants!

Have fun!

[Ryshad 26]

a) We aren't belittling your opinions. You are claiming there's no space left, we are pointing out that there is space. Albeit, the space isn't where you want it, it isn't in the best spot and you're right, you shouldn't be forced to move.

You have done the exact same thing in your posts. When we have said there is space still, you have said that there isn't and that we don't know what we are talking about:

Without having even the smallest view of what happens. What jerks!

c) We aren't going off topic. The topic was the "the sky is falling"; we were discussing potential solutions to prevent the sky from falling (whether or not we all believe its falling)..all the same, I have moved that discussion to the suggestions thread.

I think one of the biggest problems you are highlighting (aside from the current lack of "prime real estate") is the lack of education for new players. The tutorial gives them the basics of how to cut down trees, make tools and start to build. It doesn't tell them anything about the expected behaviours; perhaps the tutorial should include a brief introduction to the code of conduct for freedom. eg. Check with neighbouring deeds before you start to chop/terraform/build, encourage new players to join a village so that they don't leave a half finished hut in someone's perimeter, etc.

[Ayes 3,715]

I am seeing some very bad ideas presented here such as:

Make roads have accelerated decay rate. No! Roads are what enable people to spread out into new areas. They take time and effort to build. We already have the ability to destroy them, so put in your own time and effort to do so if you feel that they infringe upon your privacy.

Have guard towers decay at an accelerated rate. No! They take even more time and effort to build. They are useful to protect people who need that help. If you don't want that help, don't call the guards.

Have walls and fences decay at an acclerated rate. No! They take time and effort to build. We already have the ability to destroy them, so put in your own time and effort to do so if you feel that they are an eyesore or block your plans or access.

I think what we do need is the ability to destroy off deed houses when 1 wall has decayed away. The security of the house is breached then and all items within it can be taken; therefore, I see no vaild reason that the remaining walls should not be able to be bashed and catapulted away. This would resolve the problem of those "eyesores".

Also, forges, ovens, bsbins, ect, ect player built items should be able to be catapulted and bashed away off deed. And I stress that the use of catapults should be able to be used on them to shorten the time it takes to remove them.

I enjoy seeing raw land being developed by players. Some designs may be poor choices in my opinion but it is not up to me to dictate to others how they should build areas up that they settle in.

The nature of this game is to develop the wilderness and see the land changing around you due to the efforts of other players. To present ideas to return the environment to wilderness by "land erosion" or enhanced decay seems to me to be counterproductive to this purpose.

As we build and reshape the environment it adds to the character and interest of Wurm to inspire others to do the same and adds value to this raw envirnoment and concept that Rolf has created. To put mechanics into effect to destroy the hard work and effort of others that enhance this raw environment seems an absurd concept to me. Let us destroy the trash through our own efforts and not seek the easy "decay" way out of the mess.

Ayes

[Wizalicious 1]

I think what we do need is the ability to destroy off deed houses when 1 wall has decayed away. The security of the house is breached then and all items within it can be taken; therefore, I see no vaild reason that the remaining walls should not be able to be bashed and catapulted away. This would resolve the problem of those "eyesores".

[Othob Rithol 700]

I'd like to see some sort of tag where constructions (with a few exceptions) do decay faster or are easier to destroy when not on a deed, in a mine, or in a house. There are places just littered with looms and forges. Exceptions would be for things like signs, lamps, towers, wells etc.

[Wizalicious 1]

On that note, it would be nice to be able to fix a well or fountain to the ground if you created it, so they can't be pushed off the water tile. But that's a bit off topic.

[Urman 1]

bla bla "sheep" bla bla "Trolls from Wild" bla bla "cheated/ scammed" bla bla "What jerks!"

I think I'm hearing that you have some problem with the way things currently work on Freedom.  I think I'm hearing that you think that you are right, and that anyone who disagrees with you is either a Wild troll or a jerk.  Got it; I'm looking forward to your next post:  'How to Win Friends and Influence People' by Mongori.

And if you think that you are being cheated or scammed by OneTooFree, you probably should take it up with Oracle or Rolf, rather than making accusations here.  I have said in the past that Rolf needs to clear the remaining F2P off GV and your insults might push him to that end - the squeaky wheel gets greased and all of that.  Have fun!

[Othob Rithol 700]

I have said in the past that Rolf needs to clear the remaining F2P off GV

Quite so.

[Maximilus 0]

bla bla "sheep" bla bla "Trolls from Wild" bla bla "cheated/ scammed" bla bla "What jerks!"

I think I'm hearing that you have some problem with the way things currently work on Freedom.  I think I'm hearing that you think that you are right, and that anyone who disagrees with you is either a Wild troll or a jerk.  Got it; I'm looking forward to your next post:  'How to Win Friends and Influence People' by Mongori.

And if you think that you are being cheated or scammed by OneTooFree, you probably should take it up with Oracle or Rolf, rather than making accusations here.  I have said in the past that Rolf needs to clear the remaining F2P off GV and your insults might push him to that end - the squeaky wheel gets greased and all of that.  Have fun!

Thank You Urman

+1 to kick everyone left on GV, is about time already.