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Rolf

Upcoming changes to champions

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Gavin, the only people who will be able to stay champs are highly active pvpers.

But crafting and fighting are completely interconnected. To be able to raid a deed without assistance from non champions, assuming you are on a character with crafting restrictions, you cannot perform:

* Making catapults.

* Making arrows (requirement for fighting lately)

* Firing said arrows (excl Magranon)

* Tearing down dirt walls (excl Fo and Libila)

* Bashing down walls with mauls.

* Building mine doors.

* Mining catapult ammo (excl Mag and Lib)

.. probably lots of things I have not thought of instantly.  Libila / Magranon, the gods of destruction, can't even operate a catapult or smash walls with a maul.

Wait, champions will work the same way in the future in this respect. Or what did I miss?

The "only" thing new will be the points that will go down and keep better track of your aggressive actions.

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Just a curious question, since it seems all champions as of now meaning the current system will be reverted to non champs, can we get a period where the champs are just plain simply removed.  Then we can test 'new' champs with the new system on the test server and make sure everything is 'agreeable' within the community - meaning no aspects that the community dislikes in general, and tweak it where necessary?

Heh problem being it will be you and someones cat playing on the test server after one day.

Farmerbob no I haven't played priest. But I know that if nobody wants to be a priest demand for enchants and spells will increase and those who stay will feel more special. Can you explain the problem with that so that I understand?

Yes I can.  Priests are pathetic and useless for anything except fighting, farming, and enchanting.  I don't care how much desire there are for my enchantments if playing the character is not fun.

If you put the priest crafting restrictions on Champs and remove the crafting restrictions on priests, then this might work without angering every single crafting champ in the game.

But how do they do it on freedom?

Anyways, do you understand that some may look at it from this end of the spectrum?:

Let's assume you've basically been exploiting the system all this time.

You have not been fighting with your champion or put him at grave risk.

You have used the benefits of no crafting restrictions on your super duper priest and gained characteristics and skill benefits with no risk.

You have owned the market or at least had huge benefits over normal priests.

In case there were any victims these would have been anyone trying to play a normal priest without becoming champion.

In case there were no such victim priests removing these bonuses is simply levelling the playing field and fair for everyone in any case. You don't ever have to play a priest any more - congratulations!

In case there actually were some people who tried to play priests normally, you have had your golden age on their behalf. Removing these exploit gains is only fair.

Do you understand that someone may have this point of view? If not can you explain why?

Rolf if you think that my becoming a champion on Farmerbob was some sort of exploit then simply delete Farmerbob now.

I can certainly understand why some people think Crafting champs are overpowered.  However I think that destroying the game for non-pvpers is not in your financial best interests.  I have made a suggestion about rearranging crafting abilities for priests and champs to better suit your explicitly stated goals for the roles of champs.

If you make the champ changes you are suggesting and do not allow priests to craft, you are slapping every crafting champ in the face and telling us that you, the game developer, have no interest at all in what is fun for us.

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You mean owning the game is fun with an artificially enhanced JOAT? Who would have thought that.

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Theres going to be a few people with crafting/enchanting champions that will oppose this idea, I personally own several but I think this is a move in the right direction for wurm.

+1 Rolf

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Wait, champions will work the same way in the future in this respect. Or what did I miss?

Farmerbob was suggesting champions have the crafting restrictions that are currently applied to priests, applied to champions, along with the changes you proposed - that post was not replying to anything you suggested.

Now you have clarified that existing champs will simply be de-champed with the initial penalty of -5 to characteristics, my only outstanding personal concern is what happens to channeling skill upon de-champ, as I mentioned in a earlier post I agree it's not fair to leave people with 80 channeling who champed with 30 and left it at that, but for those who have grinded to, say, 85 - removing the 50 gained when champing is a massive penalty as far as effort is concerned, a algorithm to make fair adjustments to all the religion skills would be interesting, as the grind from, say, 0 to 70 is likely comparable if not easier to 80 to 85.

Outside of that, no personal concerns, although I really feel bad for many vynora champions like Duce. My vynora champ is merely a alt, the only thing I am really concerned about is the channeling. I put loads of effort into that. I don't mind losing his 98 shield smithing, that's easy in comparison, but the 85 channeling, ouch.

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You mean owning the game is fun with an artificially enhanced JOAT? Who would have thought that.

Then let me spend another 2 years to create a priest that can do what my champ can now.

I'd be more than willing to do that.  Provided that it would be possible.

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What was the rationale behind the god split for the WL kingdoms? I wanted to play a Mol-Rehan vynoran follower and now I find I'm barred from champing because of it.

I've been preparing to priest up but had it turned out like I had hoped then I would have champed under the old system.

In the new system you may initially get 3 MR Mags vs 3 JK Mags but tactics and individual choices will mean that other gods will be in the mix after the initial period.

What I also do not understand is how or why do HotS get 6? If this is a reaction to HotS current pounding then please rethink it as it is quite imbalanced.

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You mean owning the game is fun with an artificially enhanced JOAT? Who would have thought that.

;D

this new alterations are Great Rolf!  comparing champions to the Troll in Moria and Aragorn is very good way to display your view. Troll was awesome - so should real champions!  killable - but bloody destructive.

3+3+6 is a very good point!  make them visible vie deed stump, /kingdom offices.

[Vynora champs cannot bash walls, so please adjust]

mag to MR, fo & vyn to JK is very good too. it reflects their lore. dont hear on whiners about crafting, Freedom is managing, Wild will too.

they can be priests and fight with spells if they wish on both sides!!!

even better: if the offices of 3+3+6 are filled, you have a choice to continue your path of strong melee fighter (crafting helps), or to choose priesthood for spamming spells on battlefield - but then you have mediocre body stats - which is very good to conterbalance your in melee fights!  but you still have a choise!!!

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What was the rationale behind the god split for the WL kingdoms? I wanted to play a Mol-Rehan vynoran follower and now I find I'm barred from champing because of it.

I've been preparing to priest up but had it turned out like I had hoped then I would have champed under the old system.

In the new system you may initially get 3 MR Mags vs 3 JK Mags but tactics and individual choices will mean that other gods will be in the mix after the initial period.

What I also do not understand is how or why do HotS get 6? If this is a reaction to HotS current pounding then please rethink it as it is quite imbalanced.

HotS is meant to be a small feared cult type thing, limiting its population but giving it a few extra champions seems to make sense.  The real war is meant to be between JK + MR.

As for the "we're losing 2 gods"

Lets use hots as an example here again, HotS has 1 God.  3 v 1, now it would be slightly more fair,  If i read correctly though, JK + MR will still have access to all 3 gods, just who can champ is limited?

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I'm sorry to say this, but I believe these ideas are terrible.

They do nothing to fix the problem, and in many cases worsen issues or add new problems.

First of all, this system will be exploited. Heavily and thoroughly. It will turn into a war about which side can exploit the hardest and keep their Champions active the longest. I think the point system is in general just a bad idea.

Second, a limit of how many champions there can be will ensure that only the most popular town on the servers will be able to make champs. They'll either make sure their champions never get dechamped through 'exploits', and/or they will have a roulette system where as soon as they lose one champion, they have another alt or person immediately go champion. Again, bad idea.

Third, limiting which champions each faction can achieve is especially terrible. The Whitelight Gods are divided into roles, and by letting only one faction get the Whitelight Magranon/Warrior Champions, you essentially cripple the other faction by cutting out one of their roles. Many MMO's have spent years trying to balance a divided system, only to come to the conclusion that it's impossible, and that all factions need access to all content. Again, this is a bad idea.

I'm sorry Rolf, but your ideas regarding champions are all pretty bad. Like I said before, you won't fix any problems, you'll make them worse.

The real question you should be asking yourself shouldn't be: "How can I fix Champions?", but rather "Why did I add Champions?". There really is no valid gameplay reason for Champions to exist in the first place, and until you realize that, Champions, and PvP because of it, will always be broken.

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What was the rationale behind the god split for the WL kingdoms? I wanted to play a Mol-Rehan vynoran follower and now I find I'm barred from champing because of it.

in 2 weeks you can change your kingdom. or be a vynora priest in MR for the time beeing

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i might be the only one that really likes this. i might buy premium for zehive again. i see most people are raging quietly over this but this is a great change. the WL god splitup seems odd, but its understandable at the same time considering the games lore. seems like most of the unhappy people are ones who are champs already..

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Lets use hots as an example here again, HotS has 1 God.  3 v 1, now it would be slightly more fair,  If i read correctly though, JK + MR will still have access to all 3 gods, just who can champ is limited?

yes - it'S great isnt it?  :D  ;D  a bunch of outcasts with vicious, jealous champs who can even kill each other for the 10 points to regain  ;D

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HOTS gets 6 because I think it fits the idea behind the kingdom. HOTS should be (more) dismal and a bit repulsive to most people and require some work to join hence the closed portals. There is a possibility that 6 is too imbalanced though. So please comment.

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HOTS gets 6 because I think it fits the idea behind the kingdom. HOTS should be (more) dismal and a bit repulsive to most people and require some work to join hence the closed portals. There is a possibility that 6 is too imbalanced though. So please comment.

Six is too much if they will still be allowed to ally with MR.

Thats a potential of 9 champs versus 3 for JK.

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Overall i think the plan is good, but i have a big concern about the diffrenses in religion spells/abilities.

imo that needs to be adressed.

Balance is a key element in games like this.

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Also:

Make casting enchants as easy as it was pre religion fix.  It is already very difficult to get good casts as champs and will be even worse now.   Reverting difficulty or even making it a little easier than before is a good compromise.

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HOTS gets 6 because I think it fits the idea behind the kingdom. HOTS should be (more) dismal and a bit repulsive to most people and require some work to join hence the closed portals. There is a possibility that 6 is too imbalanced though. So please comment.

Six is too much if they will still be allowed to ally with MR.

Thats a potential of 9 champs versus 3 for JK.

Removing alliance option between the majors (JK, MR, BL) and six would be fine for BL.

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6 for hots alone makes sense, because there are 6 WL champs.

Then they need to not be allowed to ally.  Its ok then.

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HOTS gets 6 because I think it fits the idea behind the kingdom. HOTS should be (more) dismal and a bit repulsive to most people and require some work to join hence the closed portals. There is a possibility that 6 is too imbalanced though. So please comment.

Six is too much if they will still be allowed to ally with MR.

Thats a potential of 9 champs versus 3 for JK.

The option to form alliances was removed so I don't think thats an issue.

But considering most of the time it seems JK + MR Vs HotS, 6 seems a fair number.

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Issues i see here are

1. The playerbase is too small, people wouldn't be able to maintain being champions, which would be ok if they didn't knwo that they are going to get -6 for it. Knowing this i doubt anyone would want to champ. I personally seek out PvP  every day, finding someone with 70fs to kill who i have a hope in hell of catching (i.e. not sat in a mine or on a deed etc) is very rare.

2. Rolf you will lose a lot of money when every vynora casting champ in the game suddenly stops recieving premium payments because you've made them all useless. A poll some time ago showed that most players on wild have more than one character and casting alts is the main reason for this. I personally own a Libila and Vynora champ and my main is a magranon champ. With this change i wouldn't bother champping Nadroj again because its not worth losing -6 to stats due to the fact that the playerbase can't support me remaining a champion. My lib and Vynora characters i would stop paying premium for, i trained them and built them for casting and in one fell swoop they will lose it all.

Also could you make this clear, will we be de-champed to what we had before champing OR just wacked to 30 in all skills? Many who champed were long term priests with a lot more than 30 in some religion skills.

I love that you want to fix the champ problems with wild at the moment Rolf but this suggestion....i dunno..

Edit -  A third issue i see. With deeds so cheap and guards so strong most raids that actually are achieved on wild at the moment are done by having champs tank the guards becuase there are just SO MANY of them. This change would reduce raids even more just because as a normal player its an unbelievable pain to raid deeds that someone has smacked 20+ gaurds onto.

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HOTS gets 6 because I think it fits the idea behind the kingdom. HOTS should be (more) dismal and a bit repulsive to most people and require some work to join hence the closed portals. There is a possibility that 6 is too imbalanced though. So please comment.

this works only if HotS remains a more marginal kingdom.

BUT  and its a big one  ;) is that this relies on player not chosing HotS. If HotS becomes fashionable, especially if they can offer more war orientated champ slots and a lot of players start drifting into the kingdom then they'll own, pure and simple.

You need to cater to what can sensibly be, not what we have now.

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