Upcoming changes to champions

[Rolf 3,563]

Only gain 1 point when you kill a person with 70+ fs to prevent abuse of killing alts. Only gain points 1 time per day to prevent further abuse.

Else we will see champs that never steps down but can run on forever being champs.

But sounds good to me, glad that you listen to The playerbase Rolf.

But we need to think about the abusing here as people will try find every way they can to prevent themselfs to "unchamp".

/Edit: People that say its to easy to loose champ status, thats only good cause then other people can get a chance of trying out to be a champ so I see nothing wrong in that.

Allright yes I will assume it works so I added this.

[Gaeron 551]

So as a Mol-Rehan Vynoran I can never champ? damn!

I believe the attrition level is very aggressive for the following reasons :

1 point for draining a deed.

-  people will have to play and drain deeds every day. A deed drain can take hours

  and if walled up needs a team to mine/catapult before combat can even start.

  You are looking at probably two hours every day for 5 people to maintain one

  champ at their current point level

5 points for killing a champ

- fair enough

Lose 10 points for dying

- again fair enough, also means you can recover lost ground with effort

1 point for killing enemy players

- Should happen as this is a major reason for a battle champ, but suggest over 50fs

 only and an individual cannot be counted more than once in a five day period.

1 point for enemy watch towers

- For getting the final blow or contributing X dmg to it? Again we have a situation

 where you are looking at a group of people working together for quite a while

 to achieve this target

Each of these are to support one single champ, so if your kingdom has three then

its going to have to work like crazy to support them. In  most cases the expectation

is for a champ to be on daily for approx 1-3 hours just to maintain themselves or to

get lucky for a good boost.  Just looking at these requirements its clear they are too

much.

Also what about when some one goes on holiday? unless they have maxed out they'll

lose their champ status and take the attrib hit and if not when they get back they

are going to have to move mountains to reclaim lost ground.

Finally

The WL kingdoms while they may have a bias are still WL kingdoms and that implies

all three gods. Giving the pro-combat to MR exclusively is wrong as it leaves JK

with an almost purely defensive setup. This is an extremely major balance shift that

isn't necessary and in fact just wrong. If this were taken to its logical conclusion

there would be two different WL, one for Vyn and Fo and another for Mag at

which point you may as well have three different WL, one per god.

[Gavin 971]

The current champs wouldn't lose 6 they would lose 5. Unless we convert everyone to the new system. So I guess we just revert everyone's champ status in the database instead.

Mm, ok, that sounds alot better than I initially thought..

[Farmerbob 369]

Hrm, so I might lose my champ status, which will them make me a priest as a main, which would leave me a pathetically useless character?

I have to say I strongly disagree with this unless significant changes are made to allow priests to be useful for more than pvp and farming.  Farmerbob is my main.  I would like the opportunity to play him as such, and the limitations on a priest simply will not allow that.

Mess up your alignment and ur back to a normal char again.

want spells? stay as a priest.

want both? be a hardcore pvp champ.

Have you ever tried to play a priest as a main, without alts supporting them?  With the existing restrictions on priests, when you are a priest, you are basically a crippled excuse for something that can't even be called remotely functional.  Can't improve, can't continue.  That's always been a problem, and by limiting the number of champs while at the same time keeping the restrictions on priests so absurdly severe, Rolf might improve PVP to some degree, but he's going to infuriate high end crafters.

[Gavin 971]

Would it be possible to use some sort of algorithm, especially in the case of channeling skill, when de-champion a champ?

For example, many champs will have over 80 channeling, my vynora champ has over 85 - if you remove 50 from it, that would become 35 which isn't much work in comparison. the 80>85 stretch is likely more effort than 0>75 - would it be possible to get a algorithm to work out, okay, he had at least 30 beforehand, and now has 5 over 80 - and add it together to get a 'reasonably fair' outcome when the character is turned into a regular priest?

[MrGARY 12,421]

Just a curious question, since it seems all champions as of now meaning the current system will be reverted to non champs, can we get a period where the champs are just plain simply removed.  Then we can test 'new' champs with the new system on the test server and make sure everything is 'agreeable' within the community - meaning no aspects that the community dislikes in general, and tweak it where necessary?

[Rolf 3,563]

Just a curious question, since it seems all champions as of now meaning the current system will be reverted to non champs, can we get a period where the champs are just plain simply removed.  Then we can test 'new' champs with the new system on the test server and make sure everything is 'agreeable' within the community - meaning no aspects that the community dislikes in general, and tweak it where necessary?

Heh problem being it will be you and someones cat playing on the test server after one day.

Farmerbob no I haven't played priest. But I know that if nobody wants to be a priest demand for enchants and spells will increase and those who stay will feel more special. Can you explain the problem with that so that I understand?

[Gavin 971]

Whatever you do being in super-duper demand is only really good when people pay you for the stuff, on wild most people just give free stuff to one another, so it would just create a annoyance.

[Pottis 60]

Just a note: would be really good if its very very hard to maintain champ status so champs get changed on regular basis. As it is today if we look at kings they never step down and can be king for all eternity, so not do that to champs

All in all i think it sounds very good the upcoming changes.

/Edit: Considering the playerbase maybe its more appropiate 4 bl champs, 2 mr and 2 jk. Then when population grows we can add more champs up to a max of 6 bl, 3jk and 3 mr.

[Zekezor 3,188]

/Edit: Considering the playerbase maybe its more appropiate 4 bl champs, 2 mr and 2 jk. Then when population grows we can add more champs up to a max of 6 bl, 3jk and 3 mr.

No need.

6 or more champs will never be able to maintain themself with the current playerbase.

When the playerbase grow a lot they can... in which case more champs are needed.

Only the most hardcore of the server will remain champs for a longer period of time.

Once they dechamp they will remain that way for a half year.

[Farmerbob 369]

Just a curious question, since it seems all champions as of now meaning the current system will be reverted to non champs, can we get a period where the champs are just plain simply removed.  Then we can test 'new' champs with the new system on the test server and make sure everything is 'agreeable' within the community - meaning no aspects that the community dislikes in general, and tweak it where necessary?

Heh problem being it will be you and someones cat playing on the test server after one day.

Farmerbob no I haven't played priest. But I know that if nobody wants to be a priest demand for enchants and spells will increase and those who stay will feel more special. Can you explain the problem with that so that I understand?

Yes I can.  Priests are pathetic and useless for anything except fighting, farming, and enchanting.  I don't care how much desire there are for my enchantments if playing the character is not fun.

If you put the priest crafting restrictions on Champs and remove the crafting restrictions on priests, then this might work without angering every single crafting champ in the game.

[Ecrir 887]

Just a curious question, since it seems all champions as of now meaning the current system will be reverted to non champs, can we get a period where the champs are just plain simply removed.  Then we can test 'new' champs with the new system on the test server and make sure everything is 'agreeable' within the community - meaning no aspects that the community dislikes in general, and tweak it where necessary?

Heh problem being it will be you and someones cat playing on the test server after one day.

Farmerbob no I haven't played priest. But I know that if nobody wants to be a priest demand for enchants and spells will increase and those who stay will feel more special. Can you explain the problem with that so that I understand?

Yes I can.  Priests are pathetic and useless for anything except fighting, farming, and enchanting.  I don't care how much desire there are for my enchantments if playing the character is not fun.

If you put the priest crafting restrictions on Champs and remove the crafting restrictions on priests, then this might work without angering every single crafting champ in the game.

don't forget, depending on the priest, digging, mining, woodcutting, cooking, animal husbandry, fishing, etc.

True, there's a lot they can't do, but there is also plenty they can do.

It's really pretty simple, if you don't think the spells are worth the restrictions then don't become a priest, some play styles after all are not for everybody.

[Dragonpen 4]

I just woke up to this and I'm glad you're trying to fix this, Rolf.

I once again have faith in you.

[Jock 184]

I just woke up to this and I'm glad you're trying to fix this, Rolf.

I once again have faith in you.

[Farmerbob 369]

Just a curious question, since it seems all champions as of now meaning the current system will be reverted to non champs, can we get a period where the champs are just plain simply removed.  Then we can test 'new' champs with the new system on the test server and make sure everything is 'agreeable' within the community - meaning no aspects that the community dislikes in general, and tweak it where necessary?

Heh problem being it will be you and someones cat playing on the test server after one day.

Farmerbob no I haven't played priest. But I know that if nobody wants to be a priest demand for enchants and spells will increase and those who stay will feel more special. Can you explain the problem with that so that I understand?

Yes I can.  Priests are pathetic and useless for anything except fighting, farming, and enchanting.  I don't care how much desire there are for my enchantments if playing the character is not fun.

If you put the priest crafting restrictions on Champs and remove the crafting restrictions on priests, then this might work without angering every single crafting champ in the game.

don't forget, depending on the priest, digging, mining, woodcutting, cooking, animal husbandry, fishing, etc.

True, there's a lot they can't do, but there is also plenty they can do.

It's really pretty simple, if you don't think the spells are worth the restrictions then don't become a priest, some play styles after all are not for everybody.

I've been a Fo priest / champ for a while.  My time as a priest was the most incredibly awful experience in any game I have ever played, but I got through it because I knew that eventually I'd be able to craft again.

If Rolf did not mean for there to be crafting/enchanting champs, then he should reverse Champ / priest crafting restrictions.

[violetann 43]

could we have a change to priests please to allow priest to do all gathering skills(woodcutting, mining, digging etc) and some but not all crafting aka. Vynora can do city and commerse skills aka blacksmithing, masonary, fine carp, leatherworking etc. mag + lib war - weaponsmithing, bowery & fletching, plate. fo defense - sheildsmithing, chainsmithing, alchemy, tailoring. this would make priests playable.

[kokin 0]

You may also gain one point for destroying an enemy watch tower so I'd like feedback on that as well.

So: Flaws?

as long as i remember - Vynora Champions cannot bash walls and towers

[Gavin 971]

lol @ Farmerbob - so you want to nerf champs more, ontop of forcing them through all sorts of ridiculous stuff to keep their champ status?

My main worry right now is what happens to channeling skill when champions are turned into priests.

[ZaZ213 21]

This is going to end badly. For the same reasons as others expressed it makes things too complicated. Puts jk on th defensive with spells and mr on the offensive. Enchant prices will shoot through the roof as people with champ enchanting chars will be forced into priests which they have to regrind back up to a decent enchanting level. You're overcomplicating a problem again starting just with limiting the number of champs per kingdom would have been a decent start and may be all that is needed.

[kokin 0]

by looking on deed stump and chaking kingdom offices you should see who is currently champions!

[Farmerbob 369]

lol @ Farmerbob - so you want to nerf champs more, ontop of forcing them through all sorts of ridiculous stuff to keep their champ status?

My main worry right now is what happens to channeling skill when champions are turned into priests.

Gavin, the only people who will be able to stay champs are highly active pvpers.  Rolf is trying to reduce the number of champs so they don't kill pvp for non-champs.  I agree with this.

If you want to craft, let yourself lapse into priesthood.  If you want to fight, then champ and fight.

For Rolf to say that he didn't intend champs to craft and enchant is absurd.  If that was what he intended, allowing it was silly.  Continuing to allow it is even more absurd.

[MrGARY 12,421]

At the very least, imo there should be some lifted restrictions on priests, notably the inability to repair walls to defend against a raid. 

[Ecrir 887]

lol @ Farmerbob - so you want to nerf champs more, ontop of forcing them through all sorts of ridiculous stuff to keep their champ status?

My main worry right now is what happens to channeling skill when champions are turned into priests.

Gavin, the only people who will be able to stay champs are highly active pvpers.  Rolf is trying to reduce the number of champs so they don't kill pvp for non-champs.  I agree with this.

If you want to craft, let yourself lapse into priesthood.  If you want to fight, then champ and fight.

For Rolf to say that he didn't intend champs to craft and enchant is absurd.  If that was what he intended, allowing it was silly.  Continuing to allow it is even more absurd.

He's not saying he didn't intend champs to craft and enchant, he's saying he he didn't intend champs for ONLY to do that, he intended champs to mainly be involved in pvp, but there's plenty that sit in safety only crafting/enchanting, that's what he didn't intended. And he has been making that clear for years now, which he said himself again in this topic too.

[Rolf 3,563]

Just a curious question, since it seems all champions as of now meaning the current system will be reverted to non champs, can we get a period where the champs are just plain simply removed.  Then we can test 'new' champs with the new system on the test server and make sure everything is 'agreeable' within the community - meaning no aspects that the community dislikes in general, and tweak it where necessary?

Heh problem being it will be you and someones cat playing on the test server after one day.

Farmerbob no I haven't played priest. But I know that if nobody wants to be a priest demand for enchants and spells will increase and those who stay will feel more special. Can you explain the problem with that so that I understand?

Yes I can.  Priests are pathetic and useless for anything except fighting, farming, and enchanting.  I don't care how much desire there are for my enchantments if playing the character is not fun.

If you put the priest crafting restrictions on Champs and remove the crafting restrictions on priests, then this might work without angering every single crafting champ in the game.

But how do they do it on freedom?

Anyways, do you understand that some may look at it from this end of the spectrum?:

Let's assume you've basically been exploiting the system all this time.

You have not been fighting with your champion or put him at grave risk.

You have used the benefits of no crafting restrictions on your super duper priest and gained characteristics and skill benefits with no risk.

You have owned the market or at least had huge benefits over normal priests.

In case there were any victims these would have been anyone trying to play a normal priest without becoming champion.

In case there were no such victim priests removing these bonuses is simply levelling the playing field and fair for everyone in any case. You don't ever have to play a priest any more - congratulations!

In case there actually were some people who tried to play priests normally, you have had your golden age on their behalf. Removing these exploit gains is only fair.

Do you understand that someone may have this point of view? If not can you explain why?

[Gavin 971]

Gavin, the only people who will be able to stay champs are highly active pvpers.

But crafting and fighting are completely interconnected. To be able to raid a deed without assistance from non champions, assuming you are on a character with crafting restrictions, you cannot perform:

* Making catapults.

* Making arrows (requirement for fighting lately)

* Firing said arrows (excl Magranon)

* Tearing down dirt walls (excl Fo and Libila)

* Bashing down walls with mauls.

* Building mine doors (and bashing them)

* Mining catapult ammo (excl Mag and Lib)

.. probably lots of things I have not thought of instantly.  Libila / Magranon, the gods of destruction, can't even operate a catapult or smash walls with a maul.