Upcoming changes to champions

[Rolf 3,563]

While we investigate some permission issues with tomcat on the new login server I've decided to change champions. The basis is a suggestion by Gaeron I liked where the number of champions is limited.

Right now I'm working with the following system:

You become champion in the same way as now and gain the same bonuses.

Every champion starts with 15 champion points. When these are used they lose champion status.

You lose 1 point every day.

You can have max 30 points.

You gain 5 points for being involved in a kill on an enemy champion.

You lose 10 points when you die for whatever reason.

You gain 1 point every time you drain more than 1 silver a deed with at least 5 guards hired.

I haven't decided but it's possible that you gain 1 point for killing a new player that yields battle points. I think it is too exploitable with alts though.

You gain 1 point when you are involved in a kill on an enemy with 70+ fs to prevent abuse of killing alts. You may gain point like this 1 time per day.

You may also gain one point for destroying an enemy watch tower so I'd like feedback on that as well.

When you lose champion status you lose 1 extra point in every stat on top of the 5 you gained when you became champion. Your channeling is reset to what it was before. Faith is set to 50. You can't go champion in 6 months.

The idea is that this will put pressure on champs to actively hunt and risk getting killed. This part may not be attractive to everyone, especially together with the cost when you die which should be substantial in the stat loss. It should not be too low though because not everyone should want to become champs.

HOTS would have 6 champs. MR and JK 3 each. HOTS will again have their portal shut to reflect that you need to seek out Libila in order to be able to gain these powers. Only Magranon will be able to champ for MR and Vynora or Fo for JK.

While we're at it the kingdom change restrictions will change so that you'll be able to change kingdom once every two weeks instead and that's it.

I see no reason to change the game so that everyone has to or can be a priest like I read in some suggestions.

This will be effective pretty soon since I code it today. Meanwhile, make sure to keep your champs safe I guess. We won't wake dead champions already written into history.

I haven't decided on how to revoke current champions or whether you all start using the current system since hopefully a lot should be naturally gone in a month.

So: Flaws?

[Zekezor 3,188]

You gain 1 point every time you drain more than 1 silver.

So: Flaws?

Running out of points? set up a deed with ur enemy kingdom alt and drain it.

This will most definetly be abused.

[Rolf 3,563]

Yeah which is why it's a 1 silver limit. Let's say that it should have a requirement of at least 5 guards instead then so at least you have to kill some guards.

[Einherjar 3]

Whole thing sounds great, maybe make it so you get 1 point off killing a person with 70+ fs from an enemy kingdom? For sure not on any random alt

[Shyana 1]

what about all the non pvp casting champs?

[Wintermute 21]

why do MR and JK share the number of champions?

why can't JK create Mag champions? what happens to existing JK Mag champs?

what about casting/crafting champs?

[MrGARY 12,421]

I'm kind of interested in this, however I dislike the kingdom specific champs for white lighters.  Only MR can have champs with damage buffs and res stone effects?  Only JK can have champs capable of heals?  Only JK can have vynora casting champs? 

[Ecrir 887]

what about all the non pvp casting champs?

It's easy to grind up channeling, especially after the last religion changes. Many priests on Freedom have 80+ channeling already, so I don't see the problem for those champs since they can reach the same level easily as priests.

Just spam prayer for a massive amount of gems, grind on them by spamming vesseling and you will be there soon enough, half a year or so from what I've seen.

[belthize 438]

Seems like drain rate is to fast compared to the fill rate.  Every 2 weeks a champ has to find and kill 3 champs, or drain 15 silver, or maybe kill 15 players who give rank or maybe destroy 15 towers to net gain 1 point.   Has anybody done that in the past several months ?    MR and JK 5 champs have 15 enemy champs to target (1 to 3) but Hots 9 champs only have 10 enemy champs to target ( 1 to 1) so they'll die of point attrition.

If you want turnover that fast the penalty for losing champ status has to be much less I'd think.   If it was 1 point a week rather than 1 a day it might be better.

[Shyana 1]

what about all the non pvp casting champs?

It's easy to grind up channeling, especially after the last religion changes. Many priests on Freedom have 80+ channeling already, so I don't see the problem for those champs since they can reach the same level easily as priests.

Just spam prayer for a massive amount of gems, grind on them by spamming vesseling and you will be there soon enough, half a year or so from what I've seen.

I'm talking about the current champs in game. there are many casting champs that ppl have worked up already, also there are mag champs in jk. what's going to happen to them?

[Rolf 3,563]

Belthize I changed the numbers. I thought 9+5+5 sounded like there will still be champs all over so I lowered it to 6+3+3 which makes it even harder.

You're supposed to be very active as a champ and risk life but be very good at it. Maybe we should start with high drain rate instead of having champs that never step down?

[Rolf 3,563]

what about all the non pvp casting champs?

It's easy to grind up channeling, especially after the last religion changes. Many priests on Freedom have 80+ channeling already, so I don't see the problem for those champs since they can reach the same level easily as priests.

Just spam prayer for a massive amount of gems, grind on them by spamming vesseling and you will be there soon enough, half a year or so from what I've seen.

I'm talking about the current champs in game. there are many casting champs that ppl have worked up already, also there are mag champs in jk. what's going to happen to them?

I haven't decided on whether to convert existing champs to the new system or simply remove all champs. I see no reason to make special cases for "casting champs". There is only one champ coded. Magranon champs ingame would stay if we converted.

[Zekezor 3,188]

How about adding points for killing any enemy player with high battle rank?

Since champs will be limited it will result in that there will be plenty of normal/priest accs fighting compared to how wild is atm... meaning that its far harder to actually get a champ kill.

especially since the champ got damage reductions while a normal player do not.

without limited lifes there isnt as much of a reason to single out champs compared to normal players.

[Jberg 3,070]

this will just break the game even more then fixing it.

go back and implement it according to gaerons original suggestion.

[Ethipi 0]

I think you should have a starting a Champ score of 21, and then have a maximum of 60 because the 1 month limit is a little too little. (I'm only saying that because I want to Daolin, and Zaramoth dead).

[Rolf 3,563]

How about adding points for killing any enemy player with high battle rank?

Since champs will be limited it will result in that there will be plenty of normal/priest accs fighting compared to how wild is atm... meaning that its far harder to actually get a champ kill.

especially since the champ got damage reductions while a normal player do not.

without limited lifes there isnt as much of a reason to single out champs compared to normal players.

I like the last line there but the idea of champs initially was to.. well a good example would be the cave troll in Moria. Or Aragorn of course. You don't want him to arrive on the battle scene on the enemy side. That's what I'm looking to achieve. The system supports differences to a great extent already but champs are supposed to be the pinnacle of opposition and a symbolic one.

Playing in that role should be fun but require more of the player as well. And have a hefty cost once you step down because of the grief you cause the enemy.

[Farmerbob 369]

While we investigate some permission issues with tomcat on the new login server I've decided to change champions. The basis is a suggestion by Gaeron I liked where the number of champions is limited.

Right now I'm working with the following system:

You become champion in the same way as now and gain the same bonuses.

Every champion starts with 15 champion points. When these are used they lose champion status.

You lose 1 point every day.

You can have max 30 points.

You gain 5 points for being involved in a kill on an enemy champion.

You lose 10 points when you die for whatever reason.

You gain 1 point every time you drain more than 1 silver a deed with at least 5 guards hired.

I haven't decided but it's possible that you gain 1 point for killing a new player that yields battle points. I think it is too exploitable with alts though.

You may also gain one point for destroying an enemy watch tower so I'd like feedback on that as well.

When you lose champion status you lose 1 extra point in every stat on top of the 5 you gained when you became champion. Your channeling is reset to what it was before. Faith is set to 50. You can't go champion in 6 months.

The idea is that this will put pressure on champs to actively hunt and risk getting killed. This part may not be attractive to everyone, especially together with the cost when you die which should be substantial in the stat loss. It should not be too low though because not everyone should want to become champs.

HOTS would have 6 champs. MR and JK 3 each. HOTS will again have their portal shut to reflect that you need to seek out Libila in order to be able to gain these powers. Only Magranon will be able to champ for MR and Vynora or Fo for JK.

While we're at it the kingdom change restrictions will change so that you'll be able to change kingdom once every two weeks instead and that's it.

I see no reason to change the game so that everyone has to or can be a priest like I read in some suggestions.

This will be effective pretty soon since I code it today. Meanwhile, make sure to keep your champs safe I guess. We won't wake dead champions already written into history.

I haven't decided on how to revoke current champions or whether you all start using the current system since hopefully a lot should be naturally gone in a month.

So: Flaws?

Hrm, so I might lose my champ status, which will them make me a priest as a main, which would leave me a pathetically useless character?

I have to say I strongly disagree with this unless significant changes are made to allow priests to be useful for more than pvp and farming.  Farmerbob is my main.  I would like the opportunity to play him as such, and the limitations on a priest simply will not allow that.

[Xallo 2,599]

When you lose champion status you lose 1 extra point in every stat on top of the 5 you gained when you became champion.

This is the only thing that's bothering me that I can tell so far. Stat gain is already harder post-champing because stat-gain is slower the higher you get. It's already a kick in the butt to get a -5, but an added -1 on top of that is even more so...

I don't exactly like this system either honestly, it's too complicated. Champions should just be reverted to how they used to be... Why can't you just remove insanely overpowered AoE spells and perhaps tone down on the damage reduction a bit again? We don't need another complex system on top of what is already a mess of a code for the fighting system.

[Gavin 971]

I see quite alot of issues with this proposal.

The first is this means to be a champion, you more or less need to be a PvP'er - whilst it seems not-so-bad to apply it to, for example, Magranon priests - what about Vynora priests? almost all of them are not fighters, it seems very bad to force them to go PvP or whatever to stay champion, especially when some have formed their characters for years around the assumption they could cast WoA / CoC etc. aswell as craft.

The second is removing magranon from JK and Fo/Vyn for MR - how will MR get CoC/WoA etc.? likewise, how will JK fight against armies of Magranon champs knowing the powers they have? ie, fire pillar spammed all the time, almost never drop drake/scale, 25% damage... Fo and Vynora suck as PvP is concerned, but are very OP compared to Magranon as far as crafting is concerned.

It seems like it would create a balance issue, all of a sudden JK would be the only ones who have access to leet crafting boosts, and MR would be the only ones to receive combat bonuses.

Thirdly the restrictions seem extremely harsh, I can sortof understand you want champs to be hard to maintain, but even the most active fighters will not be able to keep up with those 'points' - a drain on a s5 deed is really not as common as you might think, bashing towers and killing enemy champions even less common. I can honestly say I don't think any of the current champions would exist with these requirements.

Fourthly I don't quite agree with this -6 characteristics if you de-champ, alot of people went champ under the assumption something like this would not happen, if you absolutely must do it, it would be nice if you allowed the first series of champions that go through this process to do so and only lose the -5 they gained from champing, they will still be worse off at the end because they would be working at +5 difficulty to gain their stats, they will have less stats in the end. It seems wrong to not only force champions to go through all this crap to remain champion, but lose 1 point in all characteristics when they are 'forced' to de-champ.

I think champs are pretty out of control and making the game worse, but this just seems like a really bad way to attempt to fix it.

[Gavin 971]

I really think it would be better if you just removed all the champion PvP buffs and allowed people to de-champ with absolutely zero penalties (except -5 characteristics) for a month or so. We would instantly go back to how the game was before everyone became a champion, and you would not anger anyone imo.

[Jberg 3,070]

I really think it would be better if you just removed all the champion PvP buffs and allowed people to de-champ with absolutely zero penalties (except -5 characteristics) for a month or so. We would instantly go back to how the game was before everyone became a champion, and you would not anger anyone imo.

this, at the very least.

why not REMOVE CHAMPS ENTIRELY while you work on an entirely new implementation of them, Rolf?

[MrGARY 12,421]

I really think it would be better if you just removed all the champion PvP buffs and allowed people to de-champ with absolutely zero penalties (except -5 characteristics) for a month or so. We would instantly go back to how the game was before everyone became a champion, and you would not anger anyone imo.

this, at the very least.

why not REMOVE CHAMPS ENTIRELY while you work on an entirely new implementation of them, Rolf?

[Pottis 60]

Only gain 1 point when you kill a person with 70+ fs to prevent abuse of killing alts. Only gain points 1 time per day to prevent further abuse.

Else we will see champs that never steps down but can run on forever being champs.

But sounds good to me, glad that you listen to The playerbase Rolf.

But we need to think about the abusing here as people will try find every way they can to prevent themselfs to "unchamp".

/Edit: People that say its to easy to loose champ status, thats only good cause then other people can get a chance of trying out to be a champ so I see nothing wrong in that.

[Zekezor 3,188]

Hrm, so I might lose my champ status, which will them make me a priest as a main, which would leave me a pathetically useless character?

I have to say I strongly disagree with this unless significant changes are made to allow priests to be useful for more than pvp and farming.  Farmerbob is my main.  I would like the opportunity to play him as such, and the limitations on a priest simply will not allow that.

Mess up your alignment and ur back to a normal char again.

want spells? stay as a priest.

want both? be a hardcore pvp champ.

[Rolf 3,563]

I see quite alot of issues with this proposal.

The first is this means to be a champion, you more or less need to be a PvP'er - whilst it seems not-so-bad to apply it to, for example, Magranon priests - what about Vynora priests? almost all of them are not fighters, it seems very bad to force them to go PvP or whatever to stay champion, especially when some have formed their characters for years around the assumption they could cast WoA / CoC etc. aswell as craft.

The second is removing magranon from JK and Fo/Vyn for MR - how will MR get CoC/WoA etc.? likewise, how will JK fight against armies of Magranon champs knowing the powers they have? ie, fire pillar spammed all the time, almost never drop drake/scale, 25% damage... Fo and Vynora suck as PvP is concerned, but are very OP compared to Magranon as far as crafting is concerned.

It seems like it would create a balance issue, all of a sudden JK would be the only ones who have access to leet crafting boosts, and MR would be the only ones to receive combat bonuses.

Thirdly the restrictions seem extremely harsh, I can sortof understand you want champs to be hard to maintain, but even the most active fighters will not be able to keep up with those 'points' - a drain on a s5 deed is really not as common as you might think, bashing towers and killing enemy champions even less common. I can honestly say I don't think any of the current champions would exist with these requirements.

Fourthly I don't quite agree with this -6 characteristics if you de-champ, alot of people went champ under the assumption something like this would not happen, if you absolutely must do it, it would be nice if you allowed the first series of champions that go through this process to do so and only lose the -5 they gained from champing, they will still be worse off at the end because they would be working at +5 difficulty to gain their stats, they will have less stats in the end. It seems wrong to not only force champions to go through all this crap to remain champion, but lose 1 point in all characteristics when they are 'forced' to de-champ.

I think champs are pretty out of control and making the game worse, but this just seems like a really bad way to attempt to fix it.

The current champs wouldn't lose 6 they would lose 5. Unless we convert everyone to the new system. So I guess we just revert everyone's champ status in the database instead.

I wrote with big signs on the wall about enchanting champs years ago. I have written quite a lot and coded features to force champs to pvp. If you failed to read or understand this idea and still created enchanting champs that's your problem and it shouldn't stop me from fixing problems with the implementation of champions as I have described them.

"how will MR get CoC/WoA etc.? likewise, how will JK fight against armies of Magranon champs knowing the powers they have?"

Yes exactly. This is what I want to see. Both (all three) sides are good and should be better in different situations.

Chess is a game with almost perfect balance.