Change to permissions system (vehicles, buildings, mine doors)

[spellcast 983]

OK. been toying with this idea off and on recently, and a comment by a friend sort of caused it to sort itself out in my head. (thanks ago)

I'd like to see a more uniform and easy to handle permissions system for everything in wurm. As it is now its quite confusing to have basically 3 different systems, one for buildings, one for boats/carts, and one for mine doors.

It should be possible to use the same basic form for all three different items. To start with, i would like everything to have a writ like buildings do. the writ could be managed from anywhere by the person holding it.

You wuld also be able to designate other players to also be able to manage the object associated with the writ. they could do this by right clicking on the object, and selecting "manage". The writ holder would also have this option, similar to the way a deedolder can manage the deed from his inventory, or from the token.  Both would bring up the same window.

So what i would like to see is something like this. Most of it is self explanitory. theres some notes after the image to clarify a few things.

First note - P1 P2 P3 and P4 are simply placeholders. Depending on the type of object being managed P1 - P4 would be different.  i put in italics above the first list the set of permission names for vehicles.

For buildings, it would be [Enter , Take (the ability to pick things up inside), Modify (the ability to damage, repair, or build) and Manage (the ability to right click and manage the settings for the building)]

For mine doors there would be only 2 permissions:  Pass, and Manage.

---

Second Note - the first block at the top, the one outlined by a solid box, would not scroll up and down, it would be sort of a header so that you can allways see the name of what you are managing.

Additionally, not all options shown in the mockup would appear at all times. the delete option would not show in anything other than buildingsm and then only to the physical holder of the writ... similarly the ability to transfer ownership might or might not be needed, as all items would have a writ, perhaps trading the writ would be needed instead, but i was thinking that using that option could cause the writ itself to move sort of as a long distance trade.

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Third note. In the middle section, where you have individual names, I'm not sure if the dropdown box for adding 1 friend at a time is needed, it was sort of an afterthought, so i'd like feedback on that specifically.

Finally a disclaimer - I am putting these ideas forward as a player, not in my capacity as a GM.  I have no idea how easy/hard it would be for rolf to change the code to accomodate this, but i do think that it would be a more intuitive system than what we have now.

Edit - it might also be possible to have a "default" permission set at the top of the list of individual names, where each name added would autmatically have those boxes checked.  (thought occured to me after i posted, dont feel like changing the mockup atm)

Additionall thought #2 - move the send button into the first block of info at the top.  the one that doesnt change when you scroll the lists, that way you dont have to run all the way to the bottom to hit send.

Edit - Another thought, brought up by a chat with Niobe.  at the bottom of the form, have an "Exclude List"  where you enter the names of players that are never allowed to have any permissions for the vehicle, building, or door.  as long as thier name is on the exclude list at the bottom, even if they join the village or an allied village they cant do anything.  would also prevent idiots from boarding boats when you dont want them to, just add thier name and they cant get back on. The exclude list would only apply to same kingdom players, and would have no effect at all on enemy players

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

Love it. +1

[Brigander 22]

This is the most thorough adaptation of the management system I've seen. Gets a huge +1 from me.

[Othob Rithol 700]

Excellent! Encore! Encore!

[Wulfgar 1,116]

Brilliant suggestion. Please forward suggestion to Rolf.

+1.

[Maximilus 0]

Brilliant suggestion. Please forward suggestion to Rolf.

+1.

[thorgot 465]

Great idea.

[belthize 438]

Edit - Another thought, brought up by a chat with Niobe.  at the bottom of the form, have an "Exclude List"  where you enter the names of players that are never allowed to have any permissions for the vehicle, building, or door.  as long as thier name is on the exclude list at the bottom, even if they join the village or an allied village they cant do anything.  would also prevent idiots from boarding boats when you dont want them to, just add thier name and they cant get back on. The exclude list would only apply to same kingdom players, and would have no effect at all on enemy players

  The above was going to be my suggested modification.  For some villages using a grant all then exclusion logic would be simpler than explicitly grant by person.  Particularly if you have 12 old players and one new one.  To some extent people able to create new player classes, (like peon) helps but doesn't address allies or random yahoos.

  The problem with the above is getting the precedence logic right.  Frequently permissions (like router rules) are on a first applicable basis rather than a big AND/OR chain.    It could be rather tricky to code in the current system,  might be trivial.

  Great suggestion overall, +1.

[Zekezor 3,188]

I'd like to see a more uniform and easy to handle permissions system for everything in wurm. As it is now its quite confusing to have basically 3 different systems, one for buildings, one for boats/carts, and one for mine doors.

It should be possible to use the same basic form for all three different items. To start with, i would like everything to have a writ like buildings do. the writ could be managed from anywhere by the person holding it.

You wuld also be able to designate other players to also be able to manage the object associated with the writ. they could do this by right clicking on the object, and selecting "manage". The writ holder would also have this option, similar to the way a deedolder can manage the deed from his inventory, or from the token.  Both would bring up the same window.

if it is all based on player held writs and a object gets stolen, then what? (pvp servers)

[Mthec 150]

Had some spare time whilst mining, so:

An little example of the boat version.

A good idea to unify the various permission menus, would need to see and use it in-game to be sure it was easy enough for new players to understand, and not too many options for day-to-day use.

Definitely the right direction though. 

[Xallo 2,599]

No drop-down boxes for friends list and I'll be okay with that. I have a TON of people on my friends list, so a drop-down would just be a waste of time whereas I could just type their name in and be done with it.

Though honestly I don't really see the reason for such a complex system. It's fine as it is really. If you don't trust someone enough to drive your boat, either A) They shouldn't be in your village, They shouldn't be on your friends list, or C) You shouldn't allow anyone to drive it... Then again I guess where you're coming from is on Freedom so I can understand the village part.

+0

I wouldn't mind an exclusion list, though.

(Sorry for the combo-breaker, but it's my personal opinion)

[Tich 1,389]

Couple of comments...

"Enter name to transfer ownership to" would NOT be required if its a writ, as you should just trade the writ itself.

"Delete this structure" (should this be "Delete this object"?) should only be available if the "Owner" is doing this manage.

if it is all based on player held writs and a object gets stolen, then what? (pvp servers)

The existing writ should be destroyed and a new one placed in the new owners inventory

[spellcast 983]

yeah tich, i even mentioned maybe not needing the ownership transfer line because of the writs.  Not sure what to do about large carts however, having a writ for all of those would be annoying so maybe we wouldnt need a writ for everything.

about the delete, i still see only structures getting a delete function, i certainly wouldnt think being able to delete a boat or cart with a single click would be wanted, tho maybe mine doors.....  but yes, would only appear for the owner, the same way the transfer ownership line only appears for the owner on boats and mine doors and carts now.

Also,  i figure that only the owner would be able to add to the exclusions, people who can manage the object would be able to see them, but not add or remove them.

xallo, mainly what i was going for was a more coherent system, something thats uniform across all objects that need managed, and also gives the most customization possible, it IS a sandbox game after all and being able to specify what can be done with your stuff is important IMO.  As for the dropdown, well some people have small friends lists and it might be convinient for them, but i can see it perhaps being un-neccesary and not included.

About theft of boats (and carts) on pvp servers.  Niobe brought that up last night when we were talking as well, and i was thinking about it, but really the only 2 options came to my mind. 

either, the option tich put forward.  on cross kingdom theft, the old writ (and associated permissions) gets deleted and a new one created for the new owner.

or

Rolf somehow adds a way for the writ to have a set of permissions and names that is remembered for each different kingdom, so that if kingdom A has the boat, one list shows, and if kingdom B has it, a differnet list shows.  that way the information isnt lost if the boat is stolen, then recovered.

other than that, please keep the feedback coming from both sides of the coin, I didnt post the idea just to hear how good it is, i cant think of everything and know the idea isnt neccesarily perfect. 

for that matter, the more i think about it, perhaps writs wouldnt be needed for all objects. I would like them for mine doors, but vehicles could do without them and be only managed by right clicking because they can be stolen.

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Edit - as a side note, what would you think of the mayor (person with the deed paper) of a deed ALLWAYS having the ability to right click objects on his/her deeded tiles and manage them.  solves some problems with abandoned boats and buildings left by MIA villagers, but might cause more trouble than it would be worth.

[Corrax 19]

+1

Sounds good, except those dropdown menus what Xallo said.

[MrGARY 12,421]

I am ALL for a better management system, however I don't like the idea of an actual writ.  Looking on wild, where mine doors, carts, boats, gatehouses, longhouses, etc are all over the place, you'd have people with probably 500 writs even.  Would just be insane to have a writ for everything.  So, remove the writ idea for mine doors and 'vehicles' and you got a +1

[Brigander 22]

Why even have writs? Make each building have the right-click options saved like a mine door or a boat. Easier than digging through a stack of writs to find one particular building and would allow you to set who can manage the building settings more easily.

[Evilvision 301]

Well on Wild when you take a vehicle from another kingdom it transfers ownership. Why not just have it transfer the writ along with it to the new owner. Supposedly when you vote out a mayor for a new one in your village the deed writ transfers to the new mayor. That means a writ transfer system is already in place. I rather have a new writ system such as this then click on buildings. This way I can do so even when away from the Village. to me 10 writs or a 100 are no different as long as you name them properly. I just stick them in a satchel.

The friends list is probably used mostly as a chat feature. While I may add someone to my friends list to chat with it doesnt mean I want them to have access to everything I own. I may also have a Alliance with another village and I may trust most the people there to give them permissions to my village but that doesnt mean I want the ones I dont trust to have access. Thats where adding individuals to the list comes in handy. That way we can set roles for individuals. As it is now we just have blanket settings that lumps whole groups together.

Allows people with multiple deeds to be able to share boats,carts easily now. The system now  pretty much means both Villages has to be allied to each other with permissions set to full for both. With it like this you then dont want to ally with others because you would have to give them the same full permission and you basically have to take one of the mayors and strip him of all friends  leaving only the ones you want to have access to carts and boats.

This is long overdue. The big plus one.

[Eyesgood 2,121]

Obvious +1

[Protunia 735]

I don't really know.

I kind alike it and I kinda don't.

I would prefer less, but like the options.

I just don't want to see things too complicated that some people makes mistakes that hurt them.

As long as its simple and straight forward I would say +1.

[spellcast 983]

well protunia, some options wouldnt appear all the time (for example, if you arent a member of a village the section about adding roles from your deed to the writ would not show)

adding an updated mockup removing the "add friends from list" dropdown, and including the exclusion section at the bottom.

I'm still up in the air about having writs for everything - it does make sense to keep the physical writs the same as they are now, only for buildings since there is some concern about being overwhelemed with papers.

for that matter if we can right click the buildings, perhaps just getting rid of paper writs alltogether is an option??

[MrGARY 12,421]

I think we need to keep physical writs for buildings as is, due to circumstances that may require you to add someone to the building while you are literally miles away, WHILE adding the right click manage to the building.  However like i mentioned before, no writs for vehicles and mine doors.

[spellcast 983]

just out of curiosity mrgary..  how is a mine door any different from a building in terms of needing to add someone from miles away?

or a boat? whats the difference there?  you have a friend who is stuck, needs transport, and is near your boat, but you arent anywhere near them and the boat isnt set to allow them to use it.  how is that really different than someone needing to be added to a building for whatever reason?

I'm not trying to be flip, i really want to know what you consider the difference to be that makes it ok and needed for buildings, but not for the other stuff. Mostly i like consistancy and having remote management for one but not the other seems counter-productive to me.

[syncaidius 159]

An overhaul like this has been needed for a long time now, hope this gets done eventually. Swap the drop down box for a text box and you have my +1.

EDIT:

You could combine the combo and text box method for entering names though, maybe have a right click option on the text box to select from a list of friends and auto-enter their name into the text box for you.

[MrGARY 12,421]

just out of curiosity mrgary..  how is a mine door any different from a building in terms of needing to add someone from miles away?

or a boat? whats the difference there?  you have a friend who is stuck, needs transport, and is near your boat, but you arent anywhere near them and the boat isnt set to allow them to use it.  how is that really different than someone needing to be added to a building for whatever reason?

I'm not trying to be flip, i really want to know what you consider the difference to be that makes it ok and needed for buildings, but not for the other stuff. Mostly i like consistancy and having remote management for one but not the other seems counter-productive to me.

To be fair, it's partially because of it's the system we have now.  We already are dealing with writs for buildings and not vehicles, and in my own personal experience, I have needed access to a building many, many times over needing access to a boat.  Granted others may have found otherwise.  Mine doors are mixed here, I've found myself needing access to mine doors as well, but most of the times there would be someone around that can add me.  My concern with writs for say mine doors, is I know there can be WAY more doors placed all over the place versus houses, and now imagine, houses have names, mine doors do not.  Now making named mine doors upon mouse over is a bad idea for wild especially, so the only way to allow a name for a door is upon managing the door, but if someone needs access to the door, they cannot manage it, thus if you don't remember which mine door name the person is at, how are you going to add them?  I suppose upon spamming examine to find a door, examining the strength would give a name of the door as well?  Even so, like I mentioned earlier, I'm just concerned with the mass amounts of writs for mine doors in inventory, as there are definitely a lot more doors placed than houses and vehicles combined.

[Tich 1,389]

Maybe instead of individual writs, just have a 'writ-book' where you can select the item to manage from a dropdown (or flip pages...)

Also could have categories (Buildings, Mine doors, Carts, Boats, Merchants...)

So select a category then an object in that category, then click the "Manage" button...