Freedom griefing

[Petbe 0]

while I don't agree with the actions perpetrated, this is FREEDOM.  Not Law-And-Order-Ville.  At no point did Rolf or any other creator type of Wurm make "FREEDOM" officially CareBareLand.  It is true that these player-types are unsavory and cowardly... but in a true free society you must stomach all types.  The fact that you can technically prevent their behavior on your deed if proper steps are taken ensures "your FREEDOM" to play the game as you wish also.

That said, I empathize with Heart, and dislike the behavior of these cowardly bullies... but I defend their right to play as they choose.

Today most would force these undesirables to conform,  hopefully tomorrow a group won't force you to conform to their perspective simply because you behave differently.

It's Freedom.  Not Law-And-Order-Care-Bear-Land.

[Elshar 1]

<stuff>

It's Freedom.  Not Law-And-Order-Care-Bear-Land.

I don't think anyone is asking for Freedom to become law and order land. They do, however want consistency. I doubt you could argue with a straight face that malicious and anti-social behaviour on anyone's part is a good thing.

[MasterGeldrin 0]

while I don't agree with the actions perpetrated, this is FREEDOM.  Not Law-And-Order-Ville.  At no point did Rolf or any other creator type of Wurm make "FREEDOM" officially CareBareLand.  It is true that these player-types are unsavory and cowardly... but in a true free society you must stomach all types.  The fact that you can technically prevent their behavior on your deed if proper steps are taken ensures "your FREEDOM" to play the game as you wish also.

That said, I empathize with Heart, and dislike the behavior of these cowardly bullies... but I defend their right to play as they choose.

Today most would force these undesirables to conform,  hopefully tomorrow a group won't force you to conform to their perspective simply because you behave differently.

It's Freedom.  Not Law-And-Order-Care-Bear-Land.

I think you will find the issue is not with how they play, but more the fact that there is no rebuttal available technically or externally. These are people who intentionally look for places to manipulate and cause strife for minimal gain. If there was a effective way of "victims" dealing with such people beyond "KoS" (which admit is hardly effective in some instances due to deed size etc) or making threads about the action then it wouldnt be an issue.

The only available response to being attacked in such a way is to make a complaint here on the forums and ask for a method of rebuttal or do the same action back to them (which again is not always possible as they may have a better understanding of the game mechanics and Rule Loop Holes, or even the lack of a permanent home completely.)

At the least what is needed is a solid consistent set of rules with an effective rebuttal. People who wish to play in a "violent" manner should atleast do so with a little fear of reprimand and absolutely no Loop-Holes in which to hide behind. On wild a very simple Solution is to KoS the attacker and if it persists Witch hunting the person until they go into hiding, change their ways or leave, here on freedom there is no ability to do anything even remotely similar. The attackers are allowed to do what they want, when they want with impunity and lack of fear. THAT is what is wrong with Freedom as it stands.

[Othob Rithol 700]

If we're going for the "Freedom to play how you like" neoanarchist dystopia then I should be able to curse in kchat and run around making racial slurs. I should not only be able to discuss sex, drugs and wares but should be able to trade for them with in-game silver.

Why is that ridiculous?

Because we have certain minimum expectations of decency that overrule personal freedoms to maintain the quality and enjoyability of the game environment.

I am far more offended personally by players being able to take an action they know is wrong, brag about it, publicly admit to having done it and feel no remorse and being allowed to continue playing without any penalty or reprimand. No community of any size can exist for long without some rules of behavior and penalties for breaking those rules.

[Maximilus 0]

Petbe, go read a little about Freedom and why people came here (as in the history in wiki and the stories of players). Freedom was created for people that were running away from the lands of war, to peacefully coexist without the harassment of war, to be free in short. Some individuals have turn the rules and it's loop holes on their favor to cause harm to others, publicly saying what they did, with absolute no remorse or fear of consequences because in reality, due to the many gray areas still on the rules, there are none.

We don't want a "care-bear" server or whatever comment you try to imply, if you like to play like this individuals do, then Wild is there for that, were people can reciprocate as they see fit in order to teach this individuals what been an asshat is. On Freedom, you just have to sit there and see them parade around chat, laughing at what they did, making jokes about it, like if what they did was the most grandiose thing on the world, at least to them, until some sort of rule change is made. And imho, anyone that sympathize with this 3 individuals is as bad or worst than they are, but that's just me.

[Oracle 318]

The important thing to realise is that this situation is clearly not desirable on the Freedom server, and as such we need a conversation on how rules and/or game mechanics should be edited to prevent it happening again (although I would suspect that's already in the works too)

I very much hope so too.

Yes there has been a lot of discussion on what and how to manage griefing problems. Unfortunately those discussion threads are not available to you.  From experience we have found that to issue rules without defining a workable process causes more problems then originally existed. Its a slow process to find solutions as every situation is unique and its mostly impossible to issue a set of rules that can be policed.

For example recently a players corpse was entombed. We had to extract the body and warn the players concerned that its not acceptable and considered griefing to do that.

We do not have a rule to cover that as it can be exploited by a player to incriminate others. We could not then and still cannot police that activity, so we will continue to fix and warn those concerned. The follow on to this is that the players after being given an instruction, will have to abide by that directive or suffer a griefing penalty.

This instruction is covered in the rules and is policable.

Anyway , this is just a note to say that we are working on the problem and hope to get something in place soon.

[Wulfgar 1,127]

while I don't agree with the actions perpetrated, this is FREEDOM.  Not Law-And-Order-Ville.  At no point did Rolf or any other creator type of Wurm make "FREEDOM" officially CareBareLand.  It is true that these player-types are unsavory and cowardly... but in a true free society you must stomach all types.  The fact that you can technically prevent their behavior on your deed if proper steps are taken ensures "your FREEDOM" to play the game as you wish also.

[Othob Rithol 700]

The fact is that this griefing hasn't been a problem for almost the first year of the Freedom server. It has become a problem now after the first group of griefers got away with it, they could boast on forums about it, they could joke about it in Freedom chat, there was clear evidence of what they did, but nothing happened to them at all. This just invited more people to grief because they can see that they can do it without any serious consequences.

[Vion 0]

I repose my original question: Is it OneTooFree's policy that sociopathic, delinquent, amoral behavior will be allowed by its customers in this entertainment venue?

If your response is that we are instituting software/rule fixes, and in the future, and unless something happens to bang up against those rules, it will be allowed, then it is clear OneTooFree's policy is as I stated above -- actions were taken which were unquestionably anti-social and delinquent, and the individuals who took them are still allowed in this venue.

Notice that I did not say above "Is it Wurm's policy". This is not a question of game mechanics or even posted game rules. The actions these individual took, once again, were unquestionably, without needing any reference to anything other than a normal code of morals and ethics, sociopathic, delinquent, amoral. Does OneTooFree allow individuals such as this to be its customers?

As I stated before, digression into game mechanics and rule language is irrelevant, and masks the fundamental question -- Is it OneTooFree's policy that sociopathic, delinquent, amoral behavior will be allowed by its customers in this entertainment venue?

And if it isn't, why are these individuals still playing, and why is OneTooFree allowing GM's, who are supposed to enforce policy, spend their time dithering in endless academic discussions and generalized inaction. If the policy is that OneTooFree is an honorable member of civilized society with appropriate morals and ethics, then it needs to find GMs who will actually enforce its policy.

And in case you need me to clarify it yet again -- this post is a question -- a simple, important, question. The answer is "yes" or "no". I expect, if the GM's have any actual sense of what they should be doing, their next post will be a "yes" or a "no" (and if Rolf has to be consulted, get off your duff's and consult him). Any other post by a GM means that the course of obfuscation and wimpiness and unwillingness to behave as moral, ethical members of society continues in the GM community.

[Guest prospero]

In all honesty.. If Rolf or the GM's or the 'powers that be' could wave a 'magic wand' and reinstate the animals and property lost or destroyed and a tightening up of the protection a deed offers.. then these type of issues would go away as people would realise its just not worth it..

** On the technical site if all the data is held on a database, I guess you could extract the 'data' (from a restored backup? on another temporary wurm server/system) and 'insert' it back into the Wurm Freedom system?

[Elshar 1]

In all honesty.. If Rolf or the GM's or the 'powers that be' could wave a 'magic wand' and reinstate the animals and property lost or destroyed and a tightening up of the protection a deed offers.. then these type of issues would go away as people would realise its just not worth it..

** On the technical site if all the data is held on a database, I guess you could extract the 'data' (from a restored backup? on another temporary wurm server/system) and 'insert' it back into the Wurm Freedom system?

[KyleBooze 451]

In all honesty.. If Rolf or the GM's or the 'powers that be' could wave a 'magic wand' and reinstate the animals and property lost or destroyed and a tightening up of the protection a deed offers.. then these type of issues would go away as people would realise its just not worth it..

[Protunia 735]

I repose my original question: Is it OneTooFree's policy that sociopathic, delinquent, amoral behavior will be allowed by its customers in this entertainment venue?

If your response is that we are instituting software/rule fixes, and in the future, and unless something happens to bang up against those rules, it will be allowed, then it is clear OneTooFree's policy is as I stated above -- actions were taken which were unquestionably anti-social and delinquent, and the individuals who took them are still allowed in this venue.

Notice that I did not say above "Is it Wurm's policy". This is not a question of game mechanics or even posted game rules. The actions these individual took, once again, were unquestionably, without needing any reference to anything other than a normal code of morals and ethics, sociopathic, delinquent, amoral. Does OneTooFree allow individuals such as this to be its customers?

As I stated before, digression into game mechanics and rule language is irrelevant, and masks the fundamental question -- Is it OneTooFree's policy that sociopathic, delinquent, amoral behavior will be allowed by its customers in this entertainment venue?

And if it isn't, why are these individuals still playing, and why is OneTooFree allowing GM's, who are supposed to enforce policy, spend their time dithering in endless academic discussions and generalized inaction. If the policy is that OneTooFree is an honorable member of civilized society with appropriate morals and ethics, then it needs to find GMs who will actually enforce its policy.

And in case you need me to clarify it yet again -- this post is a question -- a simple, important, question. The answer is "yes" or "no". I expect, if the GM's have any actual sense of what they should be doing, their next post will be a "yes" or a "no" (and if Rolf has to be consulted, get off your duff's and consult him). Any other post by a GM means that the course of obfuscation and wimpiness and unwillingness to behave as moral, ethical members of society continues in the GM community.

[Maximilus 0]

Protunia, I really wish I understand what you problem is. I actually when and read the Eula's, 3 times, to try to understand why you keep pointing this out. I can not find 1 single reason why you keep saying did you click on the Eula's. So if you will, link/copy/paste whatever it is that you are referring to?

I did however found this on the Eula's:

""You are entirely liable for all activities conducted through your account and are responsible for ensuring that the game rules and other rules as published on the Wurm Online site are followed at all times. If you break any of the rules you risk getting temporarily or permanently banned from playing Wurm Online. Your premium game time will not be paused during this time.

OneTooFree AB reserves the right to modify, add to or supplement or delete these terms and conditions at any time. All such changes shall be seen as applying retrospectively to all accounts.""

....which sadly don't really apply here as there are many loop holes on the rules, and the perpetrators know it, so they abuse it. That's why they are looking to modify the rules now. But that last sentences is the one I like the most, so punishment could still be implemented to the perpetrators for their actions. With this said, let's move to something you actually know very well.

Now, because you like to tell people to go read this, click on that, but on your turn, you do no linking/pasting or reading for that matter, of whatever that is that you wish to imply, let me point something at you, maybe this will open your eyes as it was created after your incident, you know, the one you can't get over it?

""Merchant stalls :

A/ Merchant stalls should not be placed in a villages perimeter unless you have an agreement with that village.

This doesn't make it illegal to do so, but it would be the common sense way in doing things and would ensure a better community acceptance.

B/ Merchant stalls are not to be moved, blocked or restricted from view or access by anyone other then the owner.

C/ Dropping or expanding deeds over stalls isn't illegal, but the deed owner should allow proper access for the removal of the merchant and its stock.

D/ Stalls are not allowed to be housed over or dropped into a house plan. ""

See what I did there. Did you move your stall and merchant yet? No? then you need to go read the Eula and the game rules as well as they are always changing to to improve the community and to minimized the grief to others as best as they can. Now stop trolling, which is also against the rules, get a sense of what the topic is about and maybe people won't have the wrong impression about you. When an incident happen and there is no rule that could cover it, rules change, which is what is going on now.

[ShiroTenshi 0]

Maximilius makes a good point though. Don't act all high and mighty. I'm sure that since your incident with gumbo, you've been KOS'ed as well. Maybe not as much as actual griefers, but i'm sure someone has.

Did you Click YES I Agree to The TERMS & CONDITIONS.?

[Guest prospero]

In all honesty.. If Rolf or the GM's or the 'powers that be' could wave a 'magic wand' and reinstate the animals and property lost or destroyed and a tightening up of the protection a deed offers.. then these type of issues would go away as people would realise its just not worth it..

** On the technical site if all the data is held on a database, I guess you could extract the 'data' (from a restored backup? on another temporary wurm server/system) and 'insert' it back into the Wurm Freedom system?

I wouldn't count on them doing anything like that. I can already see where that'd be very open to all sorts of abuse. The best way would be to actually punish the people doing the griefing. The wonderful thing about wild is that you can do this yourself..

[Protunia 735]

Protunia, I really wish I understand what you problem is. I actually when and read the Eula's, 3 times, to try to understand why you keep pointing this out. I can not find 1 single reason why you keep saying did you click on the Eula's. So if you will, link/copy/paste whatever it is that you are referring to?

I did however found this on the Eula's:

""You are entirely liable for all activities conducted through your account and are responsible for ensuring that the game rules and other rules as published on the Wurm Online site are followed at all times. If you break any of the rules you risk getting temporarily or permanently banned from playing Wurm Online. Your premium game time will not be paused during this time.

OneTooFree AB reserves the right to modify, add to or supplement or delete these terms and conditions at any time. All such changes shall be seen as applying retrospectively to all accounts.""

....which sadly don't really apply here as there are many loop holes on the rules, and the perpetrators know it, so they abuse it. That's why they are looking to modify the rules now. But that last sentences is the one I like the most, so punishment could still be implemented to the perpetrators for their actions. With this said, let's move to something you actually know very well.

Now, because you like to tell people to go read this, click on that, but on your turn, you do no linking/pasting or reading for that matter, of whatever that is that you wish to imply, let me point something at you, maybe this will open your eyes as it was created after your incident, you know, the one you can't get over it?

""Merchant stalls :

A/ Merchant stalls should not be placed in a villages perimeter unless you have an agreement with that village.

This doesn't make it illegal to do so, but it would be the common sense way in doing things and would ensure a better community acceptance.

B/ Merchant stalls are not to be moved, blocked or restricted from view or access by anyone other then the owner.

C/ Dropping or expanding deeds over stalls isn't illegal, but the deed owner should allow proper access for the removal of the merchant and its stock.

D/ Stalls are not allowed to be housed over or dropped into a house plan. ""

See what I did there. Did you move your stall and merchant yet? No? then you need to go read the Eula and the game rules as well as they are always changing to to improve the community and to minimized the grief to others as best as they can. Now stop trolling, which is also against the rules, get a sense of what the topic is about and maybe people won't have the wrong impression about you. When an incident happen and there is no rule that could cover it, rules change, which is what is going on now.

[Petbe 0]

Excellent points all (in reference to my previous post).  I agree wholeheartedly with all the rebuttals to my post.  It was my intention to steer the arguments away from the self defeating "on deed off deed" argument and on to the proper "against the general culture of Freedom" and "manipulation of game mechanics" perspective.

The griefers only possible argument could have been the one presented from a 'personal rights' angle, and that perspective was well defeated.

The issue should not have to be "I forgot to lock my gate".  There should be a reasonable expectation of property security on this server period.

[HeartTheEternal 2]

Yes I took my merchant out of there. Next........................... :

[ShiroTenshi 0]

Yes I took my merchant out of there. Next........................... :

Basically You agree to let them decide what ever they want todo.

Trying to use some moral arguement holds no water when you click yes I agree.

They have the right to change modify and allow what ever they want.

And when you click yes I agree you agree to it.

So someone coming here and trying to bash Wurm GM's and The Game with moral arguements is uselss as you have agreed to what ever they want todo with the game.

Maybe not useless in some sense, but there are better ways of going about it.

[Protunia 735]

Of course they can and do listen to complaints that's part of dealing with consumers/customers

Customers are all who pay/play not just those who make the most noise about what goes on.

So they would have to look at things from both sides of the fence.

If they can somehow manage to meet in the middle and not drive away more of either side of the fence they do ok and make more money.

As far as this ruling goes again I hope they do change a game mechanic to prevent what happend from happening.

That's not to say they will or have too.

This is where the customer can make a choice on wether to support the business or not based on policy.

[Golddrakken 15]

HeartTheEternal:  I have about a dozen horses on Pinewood Retreat deed...I was/am just randomly breeding them and have way too many.  My AH skill is only 24 currently so I don't know how many have all good traits or good/bad mixes, but you can take as many of them as you like if you decide to start another herd.  If you want all of them, they're your's...just give me a breeding pair back somewhere down the road in the future.

[FlakAttack 21]

while we constantly get more tools to track and deal with this sort of behavior, we are also forced to stop and check with rolf to see if what we are seeing is an intended behavior of the game, or something that is not working as intended.

I understand that the process seems slow to you.

It often seems slow to me personally as well.

we operate on facts, and the fact is that the game mechanics allowed it to happen in this case and that there is no rule against it, making applying a punishment for doing it somewhat arbitrary.

NOW i think that most players would agree that a GM team acting arbitrarily with no solid basis or consistency in action is not to be desired. that is not to say that we arent looking into this, and many other situations, trying to work with rolf to create code changes to prevent future incidents such as this or the one that flakattack referenced with a large cart.

There is also the fact that there is only one paid person on the staff. ROLF.  so testing and investigation gets done when we as GM's have time from our real lives to do so. Pacer has spent most of the past two days looking into horses, thier mechanics, what is and is not possible, and some possible options for "what needs to be changed".

-HOWEVER-

given the fact that rolf is on vacation, the staff (all voulenteer let me remind you) is spread out over 24 time zones and work schedules, and we like to try to discuss possible ramifications of changes we make ahead of time. things do not get changed instantly.

above all we have to strive for a climate of innocent until proven guilty, and we have to write rules that reflect that long term. just like in real life, that means that some people are able to game the system and use that philosohy to get away with things that most rational people consider wrong.

Thanks for posting this Spellcast. One of my largest complaints with the GM team has been a lack of transparency, and this is certainly a big step down the right road. I hope we get to see more like this. Also, I'm very happy that you all try your best to follow an "innocent until proven guilty" style of judgement. That means a lot to us.

If we're going for the "Freedom to play how you like" neoanarchist dystopia then I should be able to curse in kchat and run around making racial slurs. I should not only be able to discuss sex, drugs and wares but should be able to trade for them with in-game silver.

I see where you're going with this but you really did take it off the deep end Othob. Stick to your usual subtlety, it's what you're good at!

You are way out there man.

I don't know what the problem is but you may need to seek professional mental help regarding your understanding of EULA's

Again My Question.....

Did you Click YES I Agree to The TERMS & CONDITIONS.?

I don't understand why this is relevant. Even if the EULA had something relevant to this conversation (besides what Max pointed out) I must point out that any EULA that removes consumer rights is void in its entirety. If this EULA even dents one of your rights the whole thing will fall like a jenga tower in court. They always do. So if you think for a second that OneTooFree can make just any change, you're wrong.

Also, would just like to say to Heart that I'm glad you brought this up. I mean, I'm not one to stand up for Carebear land, but this is a pretty clear cut case of griefing and people need to know that this kind of stuff is going on.

[Aeris 3,759]

If we're going for the "Freedom to play how you like" neoanarchist dystopia then I should be able to curse in kchat and run around making racial slurs. I should not only be able to discuss sex, drugs and wares but should be able to trade for them with in-game silver.

I see where you're going with this but you really did take it off the deep end Othob. Stick to your usual subtlety, it's what you're good at!

Why be subtle when brutally honest was the right way to go?

Deep down I think we all realize that what Othob said is true. Moderated immature people will still be immature people if we took away the moderation, and what would that make them? Unbearable.

I'd like to think that Freedom does not stand for "act like a moron if you please" but rather "let yourself think freely without risk of being raided". The server was, after all, not created because the people of JKH thought it was dull not to be able to grief each other but because they felt it was not in their interest to become raided by Wild.

[Guest trip-t]

HeartTheEternal:  I have about a dozen horses on Pinewood Retreat deed...I was/am just randomly breeding them and have way too many.  My AH skill is only 24 currently so I don't know how many have all good traits or good/bad mixes, but you can take as many of them as you like if you decide to start another herd.  If you want all of them, they're your's...just give me a breeding pair back somewhere down the road in the future.

Hehe. 24.... "too many" ..... lololololololol

Thanks for reminding me of when I was kinda new on prem.