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Herguy

Idea about GV coming to Freedom

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Othob what would you think of a simple command which activates a "Holiday Grace" period.

This came up before in discussions about skill decay as well. I'd support it for either cause. There would need to be some controls in place to avoid exploitation like the deed controls being locked down when on holiday as well as some ratio of allowed holiday days per paid premium days to prevent deed holder alts from just being made, placed, and put on a 3 year holiday. Regardless deed upkeep should still be used up during any absence. Also best to keep the GMs out of it for a number of reasons.

But its a good idea and would help reduce the impact of my suggestion on legitimate accounts.

How do you separate them?  How about this idea: 

Deed maintenance fees double after a month of the mayor not logging in.

This happens every month.

That strikes me as kind of unfair actually. I don't think it would ever be fair to charge one player more for a tile than another player under any circumstances. I'd even go so far as to say in the case of an involuntary early disband like in my suggestion that the excess upkeep be refunded either in full or at least at a greater ratio than a voluntary disband.

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Why over-complicate things? Prem accounts can deed, non-prems, can't. If you've ever contributed by forking out for prem-time, your account can continue to hold the deed. That's no more abuse than what happens already and it retains incentive for F2P's to pay at least once for some prem-time.

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I'm ambivalent about basic characters holding or placing deeds.  Both sides have good points - it could be viewed that deeds are premium content, or could be pragmatically viewed that money to the game is money to the game, regardless of source.

Like Mystecore says, it could be tied to current premiums, or one-time premiums.  The game already flags players who have been premium at some point.  That's used in determining if a referral can be given to a player, and the same flag could be used to identify if a player can hold or place a deed.

Personally, I have one main (who stays active) and two alts that go active when I care (and have time) to play them.  I prefer to keep the deed(s) on the alts because it gives my main the flexibility to handle or place deeds if needed for an ally, or to grab the ultimate spot when it comes available.  If deed couldn't be placed or held by basics, it would keep me away from the temptation of placing more deeds.  But I would lean towards allowing one-time premiums (ie, inactive premium status) hold deeds without penalty.  The deeds are being paid for, and Rolf got at least 10 euros for the first time the character when premium.

But I'm ambivalent, I can work with what the devs come up with.

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How do you separate them?  How about this idea: 

Deed maintenance fees double after a month of the mayor not logging in.

This happens every month.

That strikes me as kind of unfair actually. I don't think it would ever be fair to charge one player more for a tile than another player under any circumstances. I'd even go so far as to say in the case of an involuntary early disband like in my suggestion that the excess upkeep be refunded either in full or at least at a greater ratio than a voluntary disband.

Ok, then excess deed maintenance charges get refunded at par to the person's bank account.

We still speed up the disbanding of deeds for non playing players.

If the player never comes back, Rolf still keeps the silver and if they do come back, at least they have some money in their pockets to restart.

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Pay for prem - get benefits, dont pay for prem dont expect any!

As simple as that, now carry on folks.

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Pay for prem - get benefits, dont pay for prem dont expect any!

As simple as that, now carry on folks.

Why over-complicate things? Prem accounts can deed, non-prems, can't. If you've ever contributed by forking out for prem-time, your account can continue to hold the deed. That's no more abuse than what happens already and it retains incentive for F2P's to pay at least once for some prem-time.

In the end this solution could work. And to be honest according to http://freedom001.game.wurmonline.com/mrtg/paying.html There is a lot of paying people, even if it is just people with multiple alts, silver purchases. but just because there are paying people, it doesnt mean that all of those are retained customers.

I think the Non Premiums really need to realize themselves that as Wurm ages and gets closer to a Formal Launch version that they are eventually not going to get more content (beyond vital fixes) without going Premium like in any other MMO.

And to be honest if some of these non premiums are fighting so hard for Non Premium deeds then theyre mostly interested in their own greed and not the well being of a great game.

I mean work it out its 10E for 2 Months (£8.40), thats 5E per month(£4.20), 1.25Euros (£1.05) a week. A single sandwich. people spend more on a Junk food binge, the cost of a Single Pot Noodle in their tescos in a day than wurm is asking you to spend in a week!

So come on Non Prems, stop being afraid and take the plunge. If you honestly love Wurm as much as you argue for more free content help it out. ;)

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Allow non-premiums to hold deeds.

They pay for it, if you trace back the source of the players money it will lead it to having been bought somewhere.

There isn't going to be a chronic land shortage, non-premiums will tend to have much less money than premium players and if they do many of them will spend it on things other than deeds.

Most people don't buy deeds, rather they just settle in or around them. Most of the casual players will not want to waste money on having premium and keeping a deed running. Unless wurm is one or few of the games they play of course they will not want to spend money on an unfinished buggy game with about 5 animations and instead buy another game.

If you let non-premiums buy and maintain deeds they will need to do services to keep the deed running, and that will either end up doing surveys for the game, buying silver or doing jobs to help other players.

And it will help the game, whatever somebody does to keep the deed upkeep going will end up in the end giving money to Jannson or end up helping other players.

Pay for prem - get benefits, dont pay for prem dont expect any!

As simple as that, now carry on folks.

See what I did there, If you want to play like the big boys, then be ready to pay. If we give f2p people enough toys to play with without having to premium up, then they will never go premium as they already have what the premiums do. Besides, what does this matter to you anyway.

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Ah.. but what if you're premium and you're holding a deed and you run out of premium? what happens to the deed then? ::)

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(cannot be bothered reading past the first page)

pssst. make gv a tutorial server

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Ah.. but what if you're premium and you're holding a deed and you run out of premium? what happens to the deed then? ::)

As it is now it stay as long there is funds but I suggest it instant poof and remove all structures within deed area in the second premium time expires  ;D

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(cannot be bothered reading past the first page)

pssst. make gv a tutorial server

Lol, please tell me you know this is what's happening anyway :P

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Ah.. but what if you're premium and you're holding a deed and you run out of premium? what happens to the deed then? ::)

Yeah. I think this is an important issue. It's only right IMHO that you should have to be premium at least once in order to plant a deed since it's a premium perk, but I don't see anything wrong with the deed remaining after the premium time expires. It still needs to be fed with money and the money has to come from somewhere. The Massively article kind of suggested that Rolf is fine with people "playing for free" but buying things from the shop instead. Non-prems can make enough money to maintain a small deed, but it will be difficult. Most likely scenario is that they will have to buy silver from the shop every now and then. Also, this chance of being able to pay for the deed without buying silver from the shop is another good idea as to why it should be mandatory to be premium to plant a deed. This ensures that they have at least bought some month of prem and thus paid for the game.

I agree with Urman that it's hard to debate for and against different solutions in this matter. I suppose time will tell what's going to be necessary.

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I've not posted so far but I have been following this discussion.  When it comes to non-prems being allowed to plant deeds I am on the fence with Aeris and Urman, in that both sides have their positives and negatives and both have multiple workable solutions.  As_I_Decay seems to enjoy posting how easy it is to buy an alt with practically no extra outlay, and I think this may be the best solution. 

Firstly, make settlement forms only purchasable by premium accounts.  A group of non-prems wish to have a deed for whatever reason.  One of them pays for a premium character (either their own or an alt) for 1 month and 5s, then they sell the referral (or possibly give the referral to somebody they trust to give them the 5s back).  That leaves them with one character with a months premium time and ~10-12s which allows them to buy a settlement form (assuming Othob Rithol's suggestion for lowering the cost to 5s isn't implemented).  They plant the deed, send out the invites, set the appropriate permissions and then do whatever they want with the premium character.  From then on they can either earn silver by doing jobs or buying it from the shop in order to pay for upkeep.  Assuming they never buy silver from the shop this leaves them limited when it comes to the size of the deed.

Rolf has his (real world) money, and the non-prems have their deed until such a time that they decide to leave or go premium full-time.  Those who wish to play without paying anything can still continue to do so either out against the elements, or within a welcoming village.  For those who wish to setup their own village 10e is a very small outlay for unlimited playing time, if you're willing to put the effort in.

That's the workaround within the current game framework, assuming this idea is acceptable it could easily be streamlined even further, only allow them to pay for a deed with money bought from the shop.  If it's not possible to track this then add a settlement form to the Wurm shop that can be bought by non-premium accounts for 10e (and prevent purchasing them from traders).  The workaround would then be a positive push towards getting a player to buy premium time, since it would be more economical to pay for a premium account rather than paying for a form.  But the difference is small enough as to not persecute non-prems.

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Deeds and premium cost money, and therefore are both perks.

Premium costs money and is a perk.

Deeds cost money and is a perk.

All money is important to the makers of the game regardless of source, they won't care if 4chan sets up a small metropolis entirely deeded next to your house as long as the money flows in.

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The direct comparison between upkeep and premium time might have held true back when deed upkeep was an arm and a leg. But now deed upkeep for an area that used to cost twice as much as premium costs about half as much now. (comparing an old v10 versus a similar deeded area now, using shop prices)

So now we got past the original argument : that basics need to move to our server so they will see us play and choose to become premium too. But now it is just okay if they own a deed and a whole village of them pay pennies on the euro and end up not going premium? I'm starting to feel like I have been tricked. The whole scenario of non-prems coming over here lock stock and barrel from GV and setting up their own villages and not going premium was not what was being argued for months. The "pro" side pressured Rolf to move them here so they could be recruited to premium...now the "pro" side wants them to have premium perks too?

Potential compromise : How about deed-holders must be premium to plant, voluntarily disband, alter settings/size or for anyone to be able to add upkeep? Essentially if the deed holder loses premium status the deed is now locked completely with its current settings and upkeep. To interact with it in any way (even the KOS list) the owner must be premium...and that includes trading the deed (to avoid exploits).

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Potential compromise : How about deed-holders must be premium to plant, voluntarily disband, alter settings/size or for anyone to be able to add upkeep? Essentially if the deed holder loses premium status the deed is now locked completely with its current settings and upkeep. To interact with it in any way (even the KOS list) the owner must be premium...and that includes trading the deed (to avoid exploits).

I agree.  To manipulate a deed, the mayor should have active premium. 

This would prevent the "never log on the deed holding alt" situation.

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Now that is a fine portion of sense. Premium required to plant and edit the deed, but given enough upkeep it can continue autonomously? However if upkeep cannot be added by anyone in this state I call for implementation of multiple deed-holding functionality in some way sooner rather than later as an important aspect of land ownership customization would be made more expensive.

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Potential compromise : How about deed-holders must be premium to plant, voluntarily disband, alter settings/size or for anyone to be able to add upkeep? Essentially if the deed holder loses premium status the deed is now locked completely with its current settings and upkeep. To interact with it in any way (even the KOS list) the owner must be premium...and that includes trading the deed (to avoid exploits).

I agree.  To manipulate a deed, the mayor should have active premium. 

This would prevent the "never log on the deed holding alt" situation.

There is that, though maybe set it to lock a few days after. If I'm away or am unable to immediately renew prem then I don't want people to be completely locked out.

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Potential compromise : How about deed-holders must be premium to plant, voluntarily disband, alter settings/size or for anyone to be able to add upkeep? Essentially if the deed holder loses premium status the deed is now locked completely with its current settings and upkeep. To interact with it in any way (even the KOS list) the owner must be premium...and that includes trading the deed (to avoid exploits).

I agree.  To manipulate a deed, the mayor should have active premium. 

This would prevent the "never log on the deed holding alt" situation.

it would just become a, "dump tons of silvers into upkeep upon deed fouding and never log on the deed holding alt again" situation then. But I do agree non prems shouldn't be able to plant a deed.

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Yeah, they shouldn't be able to plant a deed outright. Should be a perk of Premium, it'll solve problems of large groups of non-prems making deeds, and wont lose Rolf much money if they're unwilling to pay anyway.

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Potential compromise : How about deed-holders must be premium to plant, voluntarily disband, alter settings/size or for anyone to be able to add upkeep? Essentially if the deed holder loses premium status the deed is now locked completely with its current settings and upkeep. To interact with it in any way (even the KOS list) the owner must be premium...and that includes trading the deed (to avoid exploits).

I agree.  To manipulate a deed, the mayor should have active premium. 

This would prevent the "never log on the deed holding alt" situation.

it would just become a, "dump tons of silvers into upkeep upon deed fouding and never log on the deed holding alt again" situation then. But I do agree non prems shouldn't be able to plant a deed.

I am not sure I believe that.  Deeds are often modified. 

Adding new people, changing KOS settings, alliances are all actions that change the deed.

I see a lot of deeds getting uprooted.

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Potential compromise : How about deed-holders must be premium to plant, voluntarily disband, alter settings/size or for anyone to be able to add upkeep? Essentially if the deed holder loses premium status the deed is now locked completely with its current settings and upkeep. To interact with it in any way (even the KOS list) the owner must be premium...and that includes trading the deed (to avoid exploits).

I've been in the middle of the road about this for some time. There are plenty of people on freedom who have alts holding deeds for free, and this would partially screw them. However, I wonder how good it is for the game to have this ability in the first place? Why should deeded land be held by a character that isn't used?

Othob, after much deliberation I think your idea is best. Non-prems should have to tough it or join a village, and obviously joining a village would be silently encouraged by the game mechanics themselves so I can't imagine many of them living alone (and really, with no skill and no idea what you're doing, living alone is a bad idea). I vote for this solution.

Also, to clarify, I want "deed interactions" to include EVERYTHING except making a bank or pulling money out. I can't see the harm in that. But yes, everything from KOS to alliance to adding/removing villagers to adding to upkeep... all should be included. Except disbanding. You should be allowed to disband at any time.

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Ok, I tried to stay out of this, but...

I can't, I was a basic for almost 2 years, I learned a lot by being a basic. I want them over here, not for cheap slave labor, but for their social impact on the game. Question, how many of you have talked in kchat to have no one reply? Or you say "What are you up to?" and have 1 person respond? That's how I feel about basics coming over to freedom.

Now, them being able to purchase deeds, I feel if they are willing to do slave labor to get the initial 10s, why not? I knew people on jkh that lived in countries where the exchange rate was a few Euros to a TON of their currency so they slaved to make the money. A perfect example of a country like this is Mexico. Why are you going to deprive someone who has worked for their money ingame the right to use it? This is like saying that the only way to purchase a deed is from the shop. Also before you try to say that having them be able to plant/hold deeds is them not paying, think of it this way; all money in wurm stemmed from someone paying for it.

It makes me mad when people say that just because they aren't premium means their money isn't worth the same amount.

That's my 2i worth.

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Ok, I tried to stay out of this, but...

I can't, I was a basic for almost 2 years, I learned a lot by being a basic. I want them over here, not for cheap slave labor, but for their social impact on the game. Question, how many of you have talked in kchat to have no one reply? Or you say "What are you up to?" and have 1 person respond? That's how I feel about basics coming over to freedom.

Now, them being able to purchase deeds, I feel if they are willing to do slave labor to get the initial 10s, why not? I knew people on jkh that lived in countries where the exchange rate was a few Euros to a TON of their currency so they slaved to make the money. A perfect example of a country like this is Mexico. Why are you going to deprive someone who has worked for their money ingame the right to use it? This is like saying that the only way to purchase a deed is from the shop. Also before you try to say that having them be able to plant/hold deeds is them not paying, think of it this way; all money in wurm stemmed from someone paying for it.

It makes me mad when people say that just because they aren't premium means their money isn't worth the same amount.

That's my 2i worth.

That is true. And I suppose a lot of us would not mind, as long as the costs of being premium were reduced to reflect that Deed ownership was no longer a perk of being a premium content. Or atleast something else being added in its place.

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Ok, I tried to stay out of this, but...

I can't, I was a basic for almost 2 years, I learned a lot by being a basic. I want them over here, not for cheap slave labor, but for their social impact on the game. Question, how many of you have talked in kchat to have no one reply? Or you say "What are you up to?" and have 1 person respond? That's how I feel about basics coming over to freedom.

Now, them being able to purchase deeds, I feel if they are willing to do slave labor to get the initial 10s, why not? I knew people on jkh that lived in countries where the exchange rate was a few Euros to a TON of their currency so they slaved to make the money. A perfect example of a country like this is Mexico. Why are you going to deprive someone who has worked for their money ingame the right to use it? This is like saying that the only way to purchase a deed is from the shop. Also before you try to say that having them be able to plant/hold deeds is them not paying, think of it this way; all money in wurm stemmed from someone paying for it.

It makes me mad when people say that just because they aren't premium means their money isn't worth the same amount.

That's my 2i worth.

That is true. And I suppose a lot of us would not mind, as long as the costs of being premium were reduced to reflect that Deed ownership was no longer a perk of being a premium content. Or atleast something else being added in its place.

If something like that were to happen then the premium price shouldn't change, deeds are optional as is. Reducing prem prices if deeds become available to non-prems is rediculous, it's already only 5 euro a month as it is.  ::)

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