Meditation: Remove timegate OR stop chance of no skill.

[Homestead 324]

48 minutes ago, manthium said:

otherwise I would chalk it down to a useful skill suited only to masocists and those with no life and have nothing more to do with it.

 

Ouch!  Harsh.....

 

I would point out, though, that it takes no more than 2 hours per day to get the 5 chances at a tick.....

 

Saying anyone that plays for 2 hours a day has no life.... bit of a stretch of the imagination, no?  That's like an hour before dinner and an hour sometime after?   You must be VERY busy with very important work 16 hours a day.

 

 

[HenryofSkalitz 24]

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Because as I have apparently said upon deaf ears (eyes?) THEY ARE NOT TIMEGATED.

 

I have already explained to you why it is "timegated", but apparently you don't have any counterargument to that, other than to repeat  "IT IS TIMEGATED"

 

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I fail to see where the confusion for me to have to repeat myself for a 3rd time is coming from?

 

Yeah, I fail to understand it myself why you repeat yourself without any counterarguments.

 

 

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so you're 70 and now screw any newer players?

 

I am not screwing anyone, you are screwing my time.

 

 

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refresh is cool yes but is UTTERLY irrelevent to this discussion

 

Precisely and I fully agree, because as you can see I never mentioned "refresh", I mentioned 25% skill gain and LT healing hands OP, but apparently.... no counterarguments for those from your part.

 

 

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My issue primarily stems from this being required by journals. otherwise I would chalk it down to a useful skill suited only to masocists and those with no life and have nothing more to do with it.

 

No, it is not required, you can choose something else much easier for the journal like lets say equip a full set of drake armor, destroy 25 veins via mining or catch a 75kg fish! They all look much easier than getting to 70 meditation with 0,125 to 0,20 skill gains per day at 70 skill! 

 

The only issue for new players, and that applies to every other skill too, is lack of information to properly and effectively grind the skill. Using khavesi for meditation is obvious lack of information. 

 

If you need to make changes, the whole grinding system for all skills must change, but thats another story. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by HenryofSkalitz
typo in last line

[Riffraff 2]

I'm amazed no one has mentioned the amazingly annoying random chance involved in even starting a meditation session.  If nothing else can we do away with the " You fail to relax." events.

 

The whole move 10 tiles thing is pointlessly annoying, and seems to serve no purpose other than maximizing the interruption of whatever else you may be working on.  So +1 on getting rid of that.

 

While the existing 'special tiles' are good for a start, can we please be allowed to build some sort of structure (gazebo like) with water/rock/flower/etc feature at the center to use instead of having to hike of to wherever to find a special place.

 

And yes,, I also find this one of the most annoying, irritating, and disruptive parts of the game.  If it weren't for the 25% skill gain there's no way I would have even thought about taking it to 70.

 

[Carmichael 685]

1 hour ago, HenryofSkalitz said:

 

I have already explained to you why it is "timegated", but apparently you don't have any counterargument to that, other than to repeat  "IT IS TIMEGATED"

 

 

Yeah, I fail to understand it myself why you repeat yourself without any counterarguments.

 

 

 

I am not screwing anyone, you are screwing my time.

 

 

 

Precisely and I fully agree, because as you can see I never mentioned "refresh", I mentioned 25% skill gain and LT healing hands OP, but apparently.... no counterarguments for those from your part.

 

 

 

No, it is not required, you can choose something else much easier for the journal like lets say equip a full set of drake armor, destroy 25 veins via mining or catch a 75kg fish! They all look much easier than getting to 70 meditation with 0,125 to 0,20 skill gains per day at 70 skill! 

 

The only issue for new players, and that applies to every other skill too, is lack of information to properly and effectively grind the skill. Using khavesi for meditation is obvious lack of information. 

 

If you need to make changes, the whole grinding system for all skills must change, but thats another story. 

So in regards to screwing time over, I totally disagree and I've been pushing for this change to happen since meditation came out basically. The devs have always ignored it, yes the bonuses are amazing for some paths, but literally half of the paths suck ass compared to the good ones. This also mitigated the almost 8 months + it might take some people to get to 70 because of terrible rng where even I myself wouldn't get ticks for weeks at a time or get like .05 at a minimum per 7 days of meditates ~40 meditates total. Like it's seriously a LOT of skill that I lose out on, and others do too. Just because you or myself did all the work to 70 doesn't mean ###### for other players. Especially newer ones. It's called reducing gaps. Also I can say the same thing about people who abused coffee and got to 70 meditation within the time it was broken from like 20 skill. Along with other skills when updates broke it. Hell even years ago people grinded locking smithing by improving locks to like 70-90 before even reporting it as a bug. You don't see their skills getting nuked down or anything happen. They were just years ahead in locksmithing before anyone even knew how to grind anything. 

[HenryofSkalitz 24]

33 minutes ago, Carmichael said:

So in regards to screwing time over, I totally disagree and I've been pushing for this change to happen since meditation came out basically. The devs have always ignored it, yes the bonuses are amazing for some paths, but literally half of the paths suck ass compared to the good ones. This also mitigated the almost 8 months + it might take some people to get to 70 because of terrible rng where even I myself wouldn't get ticks for weeks at a time or get like .05 at a minimum per 7 days of meditates ~40 meditates total. Like it's seriously a LOT of skill that I lose out on, and others do too. Just because you or myself did all the work to 70 doesn't mean ###### for other players. Especially newer ones. It's called reducing gaps. Also I can say the same thing about people who abused coffee and got to 70 meditation within the time it was broken from like 20 skill. Along with other skills when updates broke it. Hell even years ago people grinded locking smithing by improving locks to like 70-90 before even reporting it as a bug. You don't see their skills getting nuked down or anything happen. They were just years ahead in locksmithing before anyone even knew how to grind anything. 

 

I'm not against adding more bonuses to make it more worth the effort or buff some weak paths to make them balanced, but making the skill grind easier I'm strongly against. If wurm had all skills function and grind the same way, there would be this suggestions and ideas thread about creating a super hard and annoying skill to grind that rewards you with awesome buffs. Meditation is that skill, and I don't think the devs made it be unaffected by caffeine as with FS and Faith without similar reasoning.

 

I can understand that rng can be really annoying but it doesn't only affect meditation and if something must be done for that, it must be done perhaps for other activities too, failing constantly for tens of actions tempering my pickaxe isn't fun either.

 

Although I know that those bad rng strikes are the reverse/opposite of the rare/supreme rolls and we can get that much unlucky at times, it doesn't make things easier. This is not limited to meditation though and shouldn't be used as a basis to make hasty "adaptations" to the skill.

[Coach 196]

On 5/11/2023 at 7:46 AM, manthium said:

Why timegate a skill then also make it so that of the small number of chances to get skill in a day you also might not even get any?

Because this is how meditation works, otherwise it may not reduce stress, anxiety, depression, and pain, and may not enhance peace, perception, self-concept, and well-being.

 

The people need to reach to a level of "focus on other thing rather than the timegate and the chance of gaining skill" through meditation in wurm.

 

People propbably don't know what i am talking about, it's very "meditation", but all u can do is keep practicing.

 

That's how i got my 90+. All beings possess meditation-nature.

[Docterchese 1,570]

I don't understand what would be so controversial about removing the RNG on if you get a tick or not and compensating by reducing skillgain by ~50%. Getting a tick half of the time is just annoying, and when it happens multiple times in a row, people get confused about whether they're doing something wrong. It would make it the same as gaining faith from prayer, which is the other timegated skill in Wurm. Meditating would take the same amount of time to grind but wouldn't be as unfriendly to players. Not getting a single tick in two days is just weird and confusing, but with the current system it has a chance to happen.

 

That one change would not make the skill faster to grind, just more user friendly. We're playing a game here, so why not make things fun instead of frustrating?

 

As a side note, I have almost 90 meditating on my main, and would stand to "lose out the most" if the skill was reworked to make it more straightforward to grind. Yet I would be completely in support of this (and more). The only reason why I got to such a high skill is by using Wurm Assistant to remind me when to meditate - that's right, it required a third party tool to make skilling meditating possible. I think that's just bad game design, plain and simple. I constantly see people in my alliance/freedom chat struggling with the mechanics of meditation, which just... is not how it should be.

 

Meditating is a skill with powerful bonuses, and it should be difficult to reach high levels. But a good game makes difficult things fun, not frustrating.

[Tor 523]

+1 Would be nice if changes like that are done and tweaked accordingly, so players can put effort towards the skill in non no-life manner, at their own pace. (and i am having 99 skill)

[HenryofSkalitz 24]

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I don't understand what would be so controversial about removing the RNG on if you get a tick or not and compensating by reducing skillgain by ~50%.

 

 

I'm not so sure the OP and his supporters will agree to this, if you can read behind the lines, the title of the OP says it all.

 

Let's hear from them though.

 

My opinion is that this is the least harmful solution and while I don't fully agree, I won't oppose this, as it addresses the "complaints".

But I will also say this.

 

I grinded Faith to 100  and Meditation to 70, I dont remember a single thing about the Faith grind other than the boring "Oh it's time to press F again"

With meditation though, I still remember the 11+ times in a row that I DIDN'T get a skill tick, the 2 days in a row that I DID get every skill tick, the emotions while moving to the meditation tiles and the sense of accomplishment in the end.

 

 

 

 

[manthium 52]

3 hours ago, HenryofSkalitz said:

 

 

I'm not so sure the OP and his supporters will agree to this, if you can read behind the lines, the title of the OP says it all.

 

Let's hear from them though.

 

My opinion is that this is the least harmful solution and while I don't fully agree, I won't oppose this, as it addresses the "complaints".

But I will also say this.

 

I grinded Faith to 100  and Meditation to 70, I dont remember a single thing about the Faith grind other than the boring "Oh it's time to press F again"

With meditation though, I still remember the 11+ times in a row that I DIDN'T get a skill tick, the 2 days in a row that I DID get every skill tick, the emotions while moving to the meditation tiles and the sense of accomplishment in the end.

 

 

 

 

I absolutely would agree with what Doc said, my issue isn't that I can't level it fast it's that if I get the time between work and 3 children who choose to alternate not sleeping to play enough to do 2.5 hours of attempts I'd like to have something no matter how small to show for it. I am only aiming to hit 30 and I've had several days with no gain at all using coc and sb. I'm not even going to go into your last message as it's a vapid attempt to argue thin air. (I.e I haven't counter argued as you haven't really given anything to counter just effectively said "no cause I don't think it's broken" as opposed to the many others who do.) I am not even saying the devs need to uze my ideas I just wanted to make suggestions on how to fix meditations instead of making a thread that amounted to "fix an entire skill with no input"

[HenryofSkalitz 24]

9 hours ago, manthium said:

I absolutely would agree with what Doc said, my issue isn't that I can't level it fast it's that if I get the time between work and 3 children who choose to alternate not sleeping to play enough to do 2.5 hours of attempts I'd like to have something no matter how small to show for it. I am only aiming to hit 30 and I've had several days with no gain at all using coc and sb. I'm not even going to go into your last message as it's a vapid attempt to argue thin air. (I.e I haven't counter argued as you haven't really given anything to counter just effectively said "no cause I don't think it's broken" as opposed to the many others who do.) I am not even saying the devs need to uze my ideas I just wanted to make suggestions on how to fix meditations instead of making a thread that amounted to "fix an entire skill with no input"

 

Oh boy, here we go again.

 

You know what? Reread the thread, you may get it this time

 

If the "broken" 50% skillgain chance mechanic in meditation gets the "fix" you want, you can move to runes where the situation is orders of magnitude worse. It is not uncommon to see single digit creation chances even for intermediate players, and good luck trying to apply that low QL rune, "new player," that we care so much for!

And I'm not even taking into account how hard to get the rift materials in the first place is.

 

Hmm... I'm honestly curious: Does anyone know for how many years the meditation skill has been using this supposedly 'broken system' ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by solmark
moderation edit

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

lotta anger here some people need to meditate irl damn

 

either halving skillgain and making it always give skill (same time to x skill, just removes bad rng streaks) or making the first 5 ticks of the day guaranteed ticks/increased chance for skillgain would be fine imo, you can already do 1-70 meditating faster than you can path up from 0-11 if you minmax it and meditate 9+ times a day so it's not like it'd break the game or anything just make it less bad for people with limited playtime. if the powerful meditation abilities weren't so back loaded and increased in power each path level like sotg does it probably wouldn't feel as bad spending time <11 on a path either but that's probably out of the scope of the suggestion

[Ringhai 30]

2 hours ago, manthium said:

I absolutely would agree with what Doc said, my issue isn't that I can't level it fast it's that if I get the time between work and 3 children who choose to alternate not sleeping to play enough to do 2.5 hours of attempts I'd like to have something no matter how small to show for it.

 

I fully understand you (i'm exactly in same position), but you don't need to play  2 hours in one block.  If I'm busy in irl, I just log every 30 mins for 2.5 min (not much social behavior) and I use only few seconds of SB. I would say this is easiest skill to train as you don't have to have full focus (in case you are limited by rl). 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Ringhai

[Aeryck 862]

Naw, daily FarmVille skills like Meditation and Prayer require you to log in every day to advance, which increases player engagement and drives sales. Just be glad that we don’t have loot boxes yet.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Aeryck

[Brozhen 46]

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

 

+infinity

 

Meditation needs a change like this SO BAD. Anyone putting a -1 on this is no homie of mine lol.

[Stinboi 363]

4 hours ago, manthium said:

I absolutely would agree with what Doc said, my issue isn't that I can't level it fast it's that if I get the time between work and 3 children who choose to alternate not sleeping to play enough to do 2.5 hours of attempts I'd like to have something no matter how small to show for it. I am only aiming to hit 30 

so you dont want to skill faster but you want to get to 30 faster?, and if you went several days without skillgain, are you doin it right? do you have the correct ql rug? its rare that i go a whole day without any skills, and even further away to go several days without a single tick.

It really dont take long to get to 30 so if thats the point of this thread you could save it, you be 30 long before this is added anyway if devs decided to change it.

theres many that cant play day in and day out but meditation is one of the easiest skill to do, it only require 10min a day, its slow but what isnt in Wurm?

My biggest dream is to get to 90 WS, but i know im about 5-6 years away from that. im not gonne ask to get 100% tick gain.

[manthium 52]

4 hours ago, HenryofSkalitz said:

 

Oh boy, here we go again.

 

You know what? Reread the thread, you may get it this time, or perhaps someone else with better communication skills than mine can try to knock some sense in you.

 

If the "broken" 50% skillgain chance mechanic in meditation gets the "fix" you want, you can move to runes where the situation is orders of magnitude worse. It is not uncommon to see single digit creation chances even for intermediate players, and good luck trying to apply that low QL rune, "new player," that we care so much for!

And I'm not even taking into account how hard to get the rift materials in the first place is.

 

Hmm... I'm honestly curious: Does anyone know for how many years the meditation skill has been using this supposedly 'broken system' ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again. Trying to cause an argument. Just like your little whiney 'me wasting your time' comment on a thread YOU keep responding to in a manner that attempts to derail and utterly spam anyone trying to read it. If you want to discuss better communication skills heres one:

> I gave several suggestions on a suggestion post.

> you disagreed.

> you continually commented and tried to bait argument about utterly unrelated stuff.

Just like THIS response. Why on earth are you talking about runes that AREN'T a skill and are fairly new so will be kept an eye on anyway?

Here's another suggestion:

"How hard it is to get rift materials"

Let's see why can't you get materials easier? Because the game is awful to new players who don't feel like sticking around to grind out 15 odd skills or find a village to live on to make it worth sticking around. But again WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH MEDITATION GAINS. Go whine about things you want fixing on your own suggestions post and stop derailing this one as one of the 2-3 people that disagree with the majority. Several of which I know have played for years from seeing them in game

 

 

[HenryofSkalitz 24]

1 hour ago, manthium said:

Why on earth are you talking about runes that AREN'T a skill and are fairly new so will be kept an eye on anyway?

 

Wasn't the problem (and the reason you opened this thread) the non-consistent skill gain (bad rng) that drives 'new players' away?

 

Whether or not it's a skill, is irrelevant, you are after 'bad rng' after all, and you want to improve a 'broken' system to the benefit of 'new players' NOT? I smell some hypocrisy here! And why on earth (to use your own words) you don't want to 'fix' the same 'broken' mechanic that affects another group of players EVEN WORSE?! Can't you see the opened door your proposal leaves here?

 

 

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WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH MEDITATION GAINS.

 

So now it is SKILL GAINS you are after?!?! Some hours ago you said it was bad rng you wanted to fix and agreed with Docterchese proposal. Can you please stop moving the goal posts and for god’s sake decide what you want to achieve here? Your inconsistency is unbelievable! 

 

 

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Go whine about things you want fixing on your own suggestions post and stop derailing this one as one of the 2-3 people that disagree with the majority.

 

This could be a typical appeal to the majority fallacy, but you are not in a position to really know what the 'majority' agrees or disagrees with. And the only one whining here is not me but the one that can't even get to 30 meditation and demands changes to a core mechanic of the game to his benefit.

 

 

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 Several of which I know have played for years from seeing them in game

 

You will need something better than a pathetic appeal to authority fallacy.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by HenryofSkalitz
typo

[Skullripz 62]

People in this thread need to meditate

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

+1

 

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====================Inner Peace====================

(https://www.asciiart.eu/religion/yin-and-yang)

 

RNG is supposed to make a player feel good, it's supposed to drive player engagement with the game.  However, in the case of meditation, it generally just drives frustration.  Help us all achieve inner peace by removing this and just halving skillgain.

 

 

[Coach 196]

1 hour ago, Etherdrifter said:

RNG is supposed to make a player feel good, it's supposed to drive player engagement with the game.  However, in the case of meditation, it generally just drives frustration.  Help us all achieve inner peace by removing this and just halving skillgain.

Just gonna say something very "meditation" again. Inner peace happens when people can live with RNG in any circumstances.

[Homestead 324]

 

 

You think gaining the skill is tough......

 

Just wait until you go for question 14. 

 

🤪😝🤪

 

 

[Simyaci 389]

+1 Remove Tilespace at least! 

[Zakiah 66]

Don't really care about the randomness of skill ticks, or the time wait/limits between skill attempts; if it changes, I'll adapt.  If it doesn't change, neither do I have to change.  However the distance between meditation locations is kinda backwards.

It was even discussed on either GL or local server last night: if you are creating an atmosphere for meditation, you would set up items conducive to relaxation and contemplating, whether they be candles, lighting, mood music, or whatever.  In Wurm, these places are called "special tiles", where you receive your questions.  They are "set up" to be conducive to the type of meditation to which your character has become attuned.

Any looks at Meditation would warrant addressing the location-based and distance requirements for skilling first and foremost, IMO.
 

[Simyaci 389]

Just let people get all 5 ticks with a 30 minute action as an alternative. Not everyone always have time to log in 5 times a day and get them all.