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manthium

Meditation: Remove timegate OR stop chance of no skill.

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As the title says, Why timegate a skill then also make it so that of the small number of chances to get skill in a day you also might not even get any? Even Faith which is another timegated skill doesn't have that. There is no need whatsoever for it, at the bare minimum if you gain no skill it shouldn't come off your maximum skill ticks for the day. I.E you meditate, get no skill, have a 30 minute timer still BUT don't lose your opportunity for X skill gains (if you have the free time to even do it that many times in one day which not all players have due to school, family or work obligations/ priorities)

 

 

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I fully agree with removing the RNG aspect of it, or simply allowing infinite attempts until skill. 

 

I do just want to warn that the amount of skill you gain is weighted for that reason, the time it takes to go from say 1-70 meditation will take the same amount of time regardless of any of the changes (taking a 50% tick rate into account)

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+1 to either of the two ideas.

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Both I think are fine to stay wurm is a very grindy game and meditation is extremely powerful maybe the most powerful skill in the game depending on your path so it should take a long time and a lot of effort to get if there was to be a change I would like the 2min timer to be reduced and maybe remove the 10 tiles spacing between meditations.

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9 minutes ago, Riddic said:

remove the 10 tiles spacing between meditations

 

This would be great as well!

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Meditation skilling  is worse and slower than faith.

 

With Faith you can reset the daily timer with a sermon and even get more faith that way. Also no need to running around every 30 minutes counting tiles (I hate leaving the spot I am improving or cooking/smithing whatever just to run 10 tiles away when the timer pops up for another attempt).

 

Also some low level meditation abilities got worthless with game changes (looking at you PoK and traders).

And I wasted a lot of Sleep Bonus on meditation attempt where I didnt get a tick, sometimes a whole day goes without a meditation skill tick.

 

So please remove the 10 tile requirement, re-evaluate some abilities and how skill is gained. I rather take longer with guaranteed ticks instead this infuriating days without a single skill gain tick and a lot of wasted sleep bonus.

Edited by Bekador

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4 hours ago, Riddic said:
4 hours ago, Riddic said:

 so it should take a long time and a lot of effort

 

I have no issue with time and/ or effort but it's frustrating getting nothing constantly.. I'm 28.12 and trying to just get 30 and did all but 1 attempt yesterday with skiller rugs, khavesi and sb each time and not even 0.000001 skill 😕

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I think that meditation is a very powerful skill, so it should be difficult - even at low levels, refresh from the Path of Love is really powerful (negates a lot of the need for food), enchant grass is extremely powerful (pretty much mandatory for animal pens), Path of Power's erupt/freeze is really powerful in certain contexts, and the level 11 abilities can be extremely powerful (especially Path of Knowledge with that +25% skillgain in everything except for FS).

 

However, that difficulty should be implemented into the skill in ways that are engaging to players. Random skill ticks are just frustrating, so +1 to that being removed and changed to work like faith gains instead (where ticks are always the same size.) I don't mind the time gating, though - given the power of the skill I think it should take months of work to reach. With the new timers and event messages that were added in the last patch I think it should be a lot easier for the average player to keep track of when they should be meditating, so I think the timing isn't as big of a difficulty as it once was.

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-1 Meditation gives many advantages and should be hard, however if this would be added they should lower skill given by 70-80%.

Even above 70 i think the amount of skill given is pretty good.

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I am in favor of these ideas around the base concept of revamping meditation.

 

Personally I have found mediation to be the worst most frustrating thing to spend any time trying to level due to the current mechanics.

Then again I have not tried metallurgy.

 

 

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Worst skill in the game to level up.  How people have 90+ in it is beyond me.

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1 hour ago, Stinboi said:

-1 Meditation gives many advantages and should be hard, however if this would be added they should lower skill given by 70-80%.

Even above 70 i think the amount of skill given is pretty good.

 

You know that this change would make it even harder as it is now?

 

And I bet you already have high meditation and only want to close the door behind you for new players. I really cant understand this "we had it bad, so everyone must have it bad too" mentality. This is the opposite of making progress.

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2 hours ago, Bekador said:

 

And I bet you already have high meditation and only want to close the door behind you for new players. I really cant understand this "we had it bad, so everyone must have it bad too" mentality. This is the opposite of making progress.

 

What?!?!?

 

What are you talking about? He and everyone else is playing with the same rules as everyone else, it's you being lazy that wants to change the rules to your advantage.

 

And to be clear, there is nothing "bad" about the skill and the skill is way too OP.

You don't get 100% skill gain ticks with any other skill, why should you get it with meditation? (easy mode?)

You can't pray all day long for Faith, why should you be able to do it for meditation? (easy mode?)

 

and btw how can you even complain about this "infuriating days without a single skill gain tick and a lot of wasted sleep bonus" when you can literally activate the sleep bonus the last second of your meditation?

 

After we "fix" meditation we can move to the next one, Weaponsmithing, Metallurgy, Butchering, Faith and especially that accursed FS that after 80 and 90 halts to a crawl.

 

As if wurm has infinite resources and dev time and there aren't more serious issues to address.

Edited by HenryofSkalitz
typo in 5th line

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2 hours ago, Bekador said:

 

You know that this change would make it even harder as it is now?

 

And I bet you already have high meditation and only want to close the door behind you for new players. I really cant understand this "we had it bad, so everyone must have it bad too" mentality. This is the opposite of making progress.

Not true at all, but if medi change to give skill everytime, they need to scale skills it down alot, meditation i would say is the skill with highest skill tick

 

Wurm is masters in rng, and i dont see that changing anytime soon.

This goes for any skills so why would they change it for this one?

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1 hour ago, Stinboi said:

Wurm is masters in rng, and i dont see that changing anytime soon.

Doesn't mean that TOO MUCH RNG is a good thing.

 

I had 50 gardening by watering plants way before they introduced trelises and imping them for skill. You know how I felt when they introduced them? Happy.

 

I was happy players wouldn't have to waste hours of their life watering plants to gain skill in gardening. Same thing for meditation. Not only do we wait a long time for a tick, but there's also no guaranteed chance you get any. I'm at 70 med atm and it's basically a 50/50 chance for me to get a tick every time I med and I hate it. Meditation paths are strong when you hit 70 and unlock their abilities but past 70? Their rewards are dubiously useful. Recall home is a nice feature but not that amazing, you can always karma home too.

 

People act like meditation gives you these uber abilities, it's just some small buffs. The only big difference is path of insanity / power for pvp and path of knowledge for grinding. But having RNG to get skillgain every 30 minutes a limited times per day is way worse than having RNG when imping horse shoes due to the number of actions available.

 

And yeah, drcheese said it best, how is meditation even engaging to players? There's a reason most players I've known really hate it because it's just another AFK skill.

 

Wurm has TOO MANY afk skills or afk actions that take away the attention of the player from the game, which in game design terms is actually a cardinal sin. You want the player engaged not leaving the screen. It's like I would write a book that would make a reader skip chapters. Would that be considered a good book? And why a 2 minute timer?

 

Suggestion :

 

1. Either always give a skill tick when meditating

 

or

 

2. Keep the RNG as is but reduce the med timer to 10 seconds because let's face it...2 minutes is an absurd and needless timer that makes the player not engage with the game.

 

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Please no,  skill gain is just fine. It is not racing, but meditating. Maybe requirement of 10 tiles could be removed. it is pointless as it is implemented on client side only.

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I support removing the 10 tile limit.

 

Remove the complication of figuring out what QL rug to use for best tick chance.  I'd chose something simple here, say like rug QL equals skill. All the other tick chance influencing factors would be removed.

 

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4 hours ago, HenryofSkalitz said:

 

 

You don't get 100% skill gain ticks with any other skill, why should you get it with meditation? (easy mode?)

You can't pray all day long for Faith, why should you be able to do it for meditation? (easy mode?)

 

As if wurm has infinite resources and dev time and there aren't more serious issues to address.

1) You don't have limitations on basically every other skill and can spend 20 hours a day if you wanted leveling them

2) You actually CAN pray most of the day for faith using sermons but the fact of the matter is you get a tick EVERY time you pray when you are eligible which is what annoys me about meditation not giving the tick. Hence my saying either make it like faith where you get your tick every 30 minutes x times a day or take away the x times a day and keep as is.

 

3) If I felt like those limited resources were being used effectively sure but skins for weapons like 2 people use each month instead of advertising mean they aren't. 

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2 hours ago, elentari said:

Doesn't mean that TOO MUCH RNG is a good thing.

i agree with this, rng can be a bit frustrating.

but then why just meditation? im working on WS right now, would be nice if that gave a tick everytime also.

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40 minutes ago, Stinboi said:

i agree with this, rng can be a bit frustrating.

but then why just meditation? im working on WS right now, would be nice if that gave a tick everytime also.


Ok but again you can spam all day every day on WS not 5 chances per day with a chance to not get anything for all of those chances :) 

can't really compare meditation to any other skill except faith which has work arounds anyway as it is the most restricted skill.. all the others only require time and effort to get 100 if you're doing the right thing at the right time, the process of meditation is:
use rug - > maybe get skill?
use rug somewhere else -> maybe get skill?
at set levels use rug in a 'special' place -> advance path
use rug - > get skill?
that has literally no need for both RNG AND a time gate, or like I said in the original post if both RNG and time gate are kept just make it so that a failed skill tick doesn't use one of your total for the day. Then the entire argument for 'easy mode' (which is as flimsy as a paper airplane in a hurricane as it is) is entirely negated. As you still only get that many ticks per day and it may or may not take you 50 attempts+ to do so?

 

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50 minutes ago, manthium said:

1) You don't have limitations on basically every other skill and can spend 20 hours a day if you wanted leveling them

2) You actually CAN pray most of the day for faith using sermons but the fact of the matter is you get a tick EVERY time you pray when you are eligible which is what annoys me about meditation not giving the tick. Hence my saying either make it like faith where you get your tick every 30 minutes x times a day or take away the x times a day and keep as is.

 

3) If I felt like those limited resources were being used effectively sure but skins for weapons like 2 people use each month instead of advertising mean they aren't. 

 

1) "Every other skill" doesn't give you 25% skill gain at 70 skill nor does it make a tank almost invincible in PvE with LT and healing hands (sword and shield) etc Not to mention the useful enchanted grass and lava tile at just 30 skill, the benefits you get are proportional to the effort you are required to put.

 

2) It requires some effort or luck to create and participate in sermons(you are not guaranteed or entitled to have them), You need to be on the screen every 3hours and then again every 30mins and you effectively can't use this alt for much else, there is a price you pay. And most importantly, 70 faith gives you nothing compared to meditation! So don't compare them.

 

3) So lets make the situation worse by putting meditation on the Procrustes bed.  

 

Btw caffeine has no effect on meditation.

 

 

Quote

Ok but again you can spam all day every day on WS not 5 chances per day with a chance to not get anything for all of those chances :) 

 

All skills but faith have a chance to not give you any skillgain, why is it only meditation that annoys you?

 

[22:51:41] Meditating increased by 0,0500 to 70,1206 (25% PoK bonus +3% nutrition)

 

Fo follower can give you 15% bonus and food affinity an extra 10%, so more or less its about the same.

 

On average thats ~0,125 skill gain per day with just 5 meditations on that skill level. Where exactly is the problem when a 2 minute 50% action gives you that much skill? Have you tried Metallurgy? Rope making as a priest? Weaponsmithing?

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, HenryofSkalitz said:

 

 

All skills but faith have a chance to not give you any skillgain, why is it only meditation that annoys you?

 

 

 

Because as I have apparently said upon deaf ears (eyes?) THEY ARE NOT TIMEGATED. Nor am I restricted to 5 'maybe' ticks per day in ANY other skill. I fail to see where the confusion for me to have to repeat myself for a 3rd time is coming from? so you're 70 and now screw any newer players? Literally this is why I wasted a GM's time on a support ticket before coming to this stupid 'suggestion' forum (read: have some salty guy/ girl who spent time to level a skill when it was in a state that is not fit for purpose try to justify it remaining an absolute joke for the rest of time just because THEY had to do it that way..?)
refresh is cool yes but is UTTERLY irrelevent to this discussion as you get it at 20 skill at which point it is NOT restricted ergo has no place being discussed as OP here, due to proposed change literally not altering the acquisition in the slightest. enchant grass is 'cool' but only what.. doubles/ quadruples the feed a grass tile can give? I've had them go packed still when a stationary horse or 2 are too close to one another. My issue primarily stems from this being required by journals. otherwise I would chalk it down to a useful skill suited only to masocists and those with no life and have nothing more to do with it.

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