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Finnn

lets kill the floating stump meta

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why/or what consumables, no vehicle uses consumables

Edited by Finnn
or wut

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2 hours ago, Finnn said:

ql barely does anything at all <-

 

rarity does nothing for speed

 

alts are meta, do we need to run 5-20 game clients to operate a boat at not miserable speed?

only 1/4 of bonus boat speed comes from passengers in pve, the other 3/4 is from ql. a 10% speed rune adds about the same speed that filling the entire boat with accs does on pve. unless you're sailing through pvp for some reason nobody can comprehend that statement is completely backwards

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So, are you claiming ~20kmh is best we can get with normal wind, and ~30 with strong?(something almost never happening to be in favor of player's direction)

 

Do you claim we have decent speed when we're not sailing with wind on our side and no alts of any kind?(logged on or off alts)

 

If hypothetically you were correct, why do people not like sailing and the speeds and lack of any ability to improve it besides getting lucky to have favorable wind?

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literally did not claim a single thing you just said, you're just making things up as you always do

 

if there's any wind whatsoever it can always be on your side via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_(sailing) and border hopping, only zero wind is a problem. this requires player skill not ingame skill so some might have issues with it

 

you can get 20km with near zero wind on a good ql sailboat sure, if you're driving a 10ql caravel or whatever mystical boat you're fitting 20 alts into you might not hit it

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Maybe you're missing the point of whole exercise?

Wind's often not in your favor, border hopping is meta workaround and idea is to have decent speed based on boat ql or *something* improved to the existing or new mechanic to be added to counter the frustration from sailing.

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the wind is always in your favour with tacking, if you can't figure out how to use it or plan around weather that's not the games problem. Wurm's "against the wind" has 0 penalty to speed and is roughly 70° wide, the remaining direction is all speed bonus so slightly over 3/4 of directions wind will be favourable to you even without tacking or border hopping, so it's already unrealistic and pretty favourable to the player as it is. that's not at all what meta means either.

 

decent boat speed is already perfectly achievable, wind direction is easy to overcome, your suggestion is literally just "tie speed or skill or quality", but you don't want a sailing skill for it to be tied to, and it's already tied to quality, each 1ql adds 1% speed to the boat before wind is added. a 10ql boat is slightly over half the speed of a 90ql boat and under half the speed of a 90ql runed boat so it's a huge difference in low winds as it is.

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1 hour ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

the wind is always in your favour with tacking, if you can't figure out how to use it or plan around weather that's not the games problem. Wurm's "against the wind" has 0 penalty to speed and is roughly 70° wide, the remaining direction is all speed bonus so slightly over 3/4 of directions wind will be favourable to you even without tacking or border hopping, so it's already unrealistic and pretty favourable to the player as it is. that's not at all what meta means either.

 

decent boat speed is already perfectly achievable, wind direction is easy to overcome, your suggestion is literally just "tie speed or skill or quality", but you don't want a sailing skill for it to be tied to, and it's already tied to quality, each 1ql adds 1% speed to the boat before wind is added. a 10ql boat is slightly over half the speed of a 90ql boat and under half the speed of a 90ql runed boat so it's a huge difference in low winds as it is.

Tldr - don't throw a stick in the ocean and call it a boat

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Yeah, i agree with OR, I don't see a real problem with the speed of boats in the game. I've got a ~70ql knarr with a speed and size rune, if the winds are too low I don't go sailing. It doesn't matter what direction the gale or strong wind is coming from, I just tack into the wind and I'm hitting >20kmh to ~30kmh. Yeah it takes a long time to get to other places in Xanadu, it should, it's friggin huge. And OP's argument that server hopping is meta and therefore somehow wrong, um not sure what your argument against server hopping is, really. Do you want to do away with server hopping or something? I don't know, seems these arguments are kinda convoluted and haphazard. Sailing, like riding a horse, driving a cart or wagon, etc. shouldn't be instantaneous, it should be tied to ql of the vehicle or traits and gear of the animals being ridden and pulling the vehicle. I've gotten stuck in the middle of a lake (RL) when the wind suddenly died, wasn't terminal as I'm still here, just inconvenient. Just learn to tack (a learnable skill) instead of sailing directly into the wind, and only sail when the wind is strong, easy peasy.

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"great speed" on the way back from indy ros

062e0c3b4d4303a24fe4f7d184f466c0.png

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"love it"

363c78faf60833de4874d35e148a867c.png

Quote

[11:24:57] A ship with a clinker-built hull assembled with iron rivets, and one mast with a square yard sail. In insufficient wind it is rowed with oars. The side rudder is on the starboard side. This is a very rare and interesting version of the item. It is locked with a lock of pretty good quality. It is made from oakenwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 93.7838, Dam: 0.0. The name of the owner, Finn, has been etched in the stern.

[11:24:57] A bronze rune of Vynora has been attached, so it will increase the effect on speed by wind (7.5%) and increase vehicle speed (5%)

giphy.gif

Edited by Finnn
lets not forget the rune, it helps.. with the frustration

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bigger ships should have a higher min speed (with or without wind). this would help out the ship builders and not just stop at knarrs all the time.

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knarrs are used simply because you get to sail in pretty shallow waters,

this is technically a requirement to use a knarr; cog/corbita/caravels are literally delivery mules,

these are going to get stuck on plenty of places like canals and tunnels,

some borders or inland canals are not made to allow these to sail through there with a deep-water vessel

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-1 

 

I live on Xanadu and as a bulk trader frequently sail to other servers, and love sailing, and the mechanics and planning it involves,

 

Most of the ships in game lean heavily on the Age of Discovery era sailing ships: https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/History/Ships/Ships_Discovery/index.html other than the Knarr which is classed as a late Viking trading boat, historically, Large sail ships performed absolutely abysmally when pointed with wind either directly ahead as explained in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_sail

 

as pointed out by OR, there are common practices to increase speed directly when sailing against the wind, such as tacking, which can dramatically speed up your travel.

Other than navigating small channels, such as canals, there should never be an instance where you should be suffering against the wind except to prove a point? if you dont want to combat poor wind speeds, wait for them to change, Wurms wind speed changes so quickly that you shouldnt be waiting long for a more beneficial speed,

 

you can also be thankful that there is always at least a bit of wind present, as often in real life sailing ships could be becalmed for days due to no wind, If anything, the speeds in Wurm are quite generous as many of the ships have almost double the top speed of their real life counterparts a Caravel, for example,. could only go at a max of 8 knots (14km/h) in good sail,  and the main page for rowboats has the following

 

Quote

Longer, narrower rowing boats can reach 7 knots (13 km/h; 8.1 mph) but most rowing boats of 4.3 m (14 ft) can be rowed at 3–4 knots (5.6–7.4 km/h; 3.5–4.6 mph)

 

So our ability to get up to 35-40 KM/h with a high QL boat is already a massive buff. and allow most servers to be crossed in under 20 minutes 

 

lets not destroy one of the few areas of the game that actually has managed to continue to toe the line as close as possible to real world physics, if not entirely, for the sake of "but I want to go faster"

 

 

 

Edited by Toeol
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20 minutes ago, Toeol said:

-1 

 

I live on Xanadu and as a bulk trader frequently sail to other servers, and love sailing, and the mechanics and planning it involves,

 

Most of the ships in game lean heavily on the Age of Discovery era sailing ships: https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/History/Ships/Ships_Discovery/index.html other than the Knarr which is classed as a late Viking trading boat, historically, Large sail ships performed absolutely abysmally when pointed with wind either directly ahead as explained in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_sail

 

as pointed out by OR, there are common practices to increase speed directly when sailing against the wind, such as tacking, which can dramatically speed up your travel.

Other than navigating small channels, such as canals, there should never be an instance where you should be suffering against the wind except to prove a point? if you dont want to combat poor wind speeds, wait for them to change, Wurms wind speed changes so quickly that you shouldnt be waiting long for a more beneficial speed,

 

you can also be thankful that there is always at least a bit of wind present, as often in real life sailing ships could be becalmed for days due to no wind, If anything, the speeds in Wurm are quite generous as many of the ships have almost double the top speed of their real life counterparts a Caravel, for example,. could only go at a max of 8 knots (14km/h) in good sail,  and the main page for rowboats has the following

 

 

So our ability to get up to 35-40 KM/h with a high QL boat is already a massive buff. and allow most servers to be crossed in under 20 minutes 

 

lets not destroy one of the few areas of the game that actually has managed to continue to toe the line as close as possible to real world physics, if not entirely, for the sake of "but I want to go faster"

 

 

 

LOL, why...

 

We have no way to point a sail and keep direction, sails aren't possible to control, it's metagaming to sail zig-zag, lets not abuse half measures and get stuff fixed instead?

 

If you intend to get sail controls, great, give an -1 and start a suggestion for that.

 

zig-zag sailing is a meta, not normal gameplay, it's a workaround to the terrible state in which the sailing have always been.

You've maybe seen how easy it is to sail top speed in a tunnel? literally shove whole boat into the tunnel wall and press X, you'll go with 40kmh or w/e while tunnel is in well.. other direction, does that seem normal to you?

"great..."

Lets not play like that, can we have better experience already?

 

NOOB carts move at around 10-12kmh at which speed relatively any wild creature could catch up and murder them, same thing could be a thing for any new sailor, problem is.. this happens end-game.. I'm with 99 shipbuilding skill, have 93ql boat, rare knarr, it's barely moving, and yes.. maybe the only thing possible to attack you in the water on pve is a "bearshark", croc, rat, you'll hardly ever find a dragon bothered by your sailing, and what sea serpent? Threat from attacks isn't big, yet the slow speed is a terrible experience, everything is fastpaced nowdays, attention spans only lower, you can only frustrate somebody from sailing so much.. what is the goal, let somebody sail for 30-60minutes, drive it disgusted by the experience, and see them log off with a headache?

"Yup, sounds good."

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12 minutes ago, Finnn said:

LOL, why...

 

We have no way to point a sail and keep direction, sails aren't possible to control, it's metagaming to sail zig-zag, lets not abuse half measures and get stuff fixed instead?

 

If you intend to get sail controls, great, give an -1 and start a suggestion for that.

 

zig-zag sailing is a meta, not normal gameplay, it's a workaround to the terrible state in which the sailing have always been.

You've maybe seen how easy it is to sail top speed in a tunnel? literally shove whole boat into the tunnel wall and press X, you'll go with 40kmh or w/e while tunnel is in well.. other direction, does that seem normal to you?

"great..."

Lets not play like that, can we have better experience already?

 

 

its not "metagaming" to zig zag,  Tacking is also legitimate maneuver in real life,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_(sailing) regardless of if you can turn sails or not,

 

1280px-Beating_to_windward.svg.png

 

I was using the point of sail page to give an indication of the way wind works, and why you want to turn the boat out of the headwind,

 

Im not talking about whatever people are doing in game to circumvent bad winds in tunnels, if you wanted to go down that rabbit hole, then you may was well disable sailing in tunnels full stop as again, in real life there would be no wind in a tunnel longer than a few hundred meters due to pressure equalization in caves,  or better yet, not allow people to sail anything bigger than a small sailboat solo because larger ships required multiple people to sail,

 

Quote

NOOB carts move at around 10-12kmh at which speed relatively any wild creature could catch up and murder them, same thing could be a thing for any new sailor, problem is.. this happens end-game.. I'm with 99 shipbuilding skill, have 93ql boat, rare knarr, it's barely moving, and yes.. maybe the only thing possible to attack you in the water on pve is a "bearshark", croc, rat, you'll hardly ever find a dragon bothered by your sailing, and what sea serpent? Threat from attacks isn't big, yet the slow speed is a terrible experience, everything is fastpaced nowdays, attention spans only lower, you can only frustrate somebody from sailing so much.. what is the goal, let somebody sail for 30-60minutes, drive it disgusted by the experience, and see them log off with a headache?

"Yup, sounds good."

 

this isnt a game problem, its a "the game isnt working the way i want it to so it must be broken" problem

so you were barely moving, what was the wind speed, what direction, what way were you facing, why were you sailing dead into the wind?

 

I've danced around sea serpents and whales on freedom when killing them for missions, using the wind to move out of danger, given the size of them unless you arent paying attention you should never be in a bad spot, any other mobs are fodder for even a moderately geared toon, and given the lag/desync and engagement delay even new players should easily dodge the more hardy mobs, like crocs. 

I've also commanded boats in PVP on Epic using tacking to haul in or get away from enemies, 

would i be attempting these things in a slight breeze, of course not, thats silly. but there was nothing "Meta" in these instances, purely using wind direction to advantage, 

 

when, in real life, does a better quality boat automatically mean it must be faster aside from real world attributes such as it being streamlined and having a better draft? bigger or better engine, which wont apply in Wurm. equally, where in real life would you expect to hold a sheet into the wind and expect it to blow you any direction other than the way the wind is blowing?

 

clearly you will just turn whatever is said, so please continue to enjoy your 10km/h sailing trips in obstinance instead of applying actual thought and knowledge to the mechanic, The devs have already made things 10x quicker by adding things like "plot course" to allow players to skip entire servers of the old routes, 

 

additionally, in regards to the last line about things being fast paced and low attentions spans so people would find sailing boring, i'd argue that there would already have been enough red flags for those sorts of people long before this point that Wurm would not be the game for them, 

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welcome to this world, it's a game, real life is boring

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1 hour ago, Finnn said:

LOL, why...

 

We have no way to point a sail and keep direction, sails aren't possible to control, it's metagaming to sail zig-zag, lets not abuse half measures and get stuff fixed instead?

 

If you intend to get sail controls, great, give an -1 and start a suggestion for that.

 

zig-zag sailing is a meta, not normal gameplay, it's a workaround to the terrible state in which the sailing have always been.

You've maybe seen how easy it is to sail top speed in a tunnel? literally shove whole boat into the tunnel wall and press X, you'll go with 40kmh or w/e while tunnel is in well.. other direction, does that seem normal to you?

"great..."

Lets not play like that, can we have better experience already?

 

NOOB carts move at around 10-12kmh at which speed relatively any wild creature could catch up and murder them, same thing could be a thing for any new sailor, problem is.. this happens end-game.. I'm with 99 shipbuilding skill, have 93ql boat, rare knarr, it's barely moving, and yes.. maybe the only thing possible to attack you in the water on pve is a "bearshark", croc, rat, you'll hardly ever find a dragon bothered by your sailing, and what sea serpent? Threat from attacks isn't big, yet the slow speed is a terrible experience, everything is fastpaced nowdays, attention spans only lower, you can only frustrate somebody from sailing so much.. what is the goal, let somebody sail for 30-60minutes, drive it disgusted by the experience, and see them log off with a headache?

"Yup, sounds good."

Not to mention in actual ships you could set sail, and go to sleep and wake up pretty much halfway closer to the destination.  High ql big ships should go faster.

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A few points in no particular order.

  • As always with posts by Finnn I am a little bit confused as to what the problem is, and what the proposed solution is. It can be difficult to work out what's a serious proposal and what's a rhetorical question being set up only to be knocked down. Hence, I am trying to keep my post positive and state what I think is good, or would be good, for the game and players.No one is going to complain if sailing gets faster, I think. It would be nice for newer players, meaning those with lower quality ships (or less skill, if a skill is introduced) to benefit more the high-level ones.
  • I'm in favour of bigger ships going faster. This is both more realistic (for a sailing vessel the key factor determining speed is length along waterline) and encourages players to use the larger ships.
  • Tacking, and escaping enemies by running downwind, add a lot of realism and depth to the game and I wouldn't want to see either disappear. Players who refuse to tack (whether because it's 'meta' or for whatever other reason) have no grounds to complain about ship speed.
  • The one proposal no one seems to have made is that different rules should apply when sailing underground. Since there's no possibility that this would ever be realistic anyway (unstep your mast and pole along the sides of the tunnel? I don't think so) we might as well just fudge it and give all vessels a fixed speed boost instead of the usual wind calculation when in a tunnel.
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3 hours ago, Finnn said:

zig-zag sailing is a meta

Tacking (zig-zag) is the only way that any sailboat captain with more than 2 days of experience would try to sail into the wind. It's the meta of real life sailing if you want to put it that way. Watch any sailing race, like America's Cup, and tacking properly is the key to winning.

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  • Appreciate the honesty, you really do not like somebody, yada yada
    • really not professional, but you probably really wanted to write that, if you had to.. "it's fine.."; also that's not positive, positive part was the honesty, only that

Lets drop the bullet-points;

ok .. so.. problem is, minimal requirement for a vessel which is capable of loading and transferring something around is the knarr:

- sail-boat is useless with it's one large chest, maybe a small barrel and lots of dreams as loading capabilities(I could be slightly wrong, but still it's a terrible boat for carrying storage, it's impossible to consider whenever you have more to transfer around than a player or two) - this is only useful because of the utilization of wind for speed boost over rowing boat;

- knarrs, obviously as min/maxing king/queen/almighty god covering all needs of a player this boat wins comma(there's no need to write or read anything about knarrs really, just get one)

- corbitas are ugly and fat, lets face it, unless you want to move around few more crates, or you lack the coin or skill for a knarr, you'll never consider this boat, unless you like the way it looks, that's fine, it does resemble boats from movies/animes/etc.. perfectly fine.

- cogs, umm.. it's rare to see one, normally you need to think highly of people owning one, because they are unique, this boat is if I recall right really fast, but not that great for storage(lazy to check) sadly deep water vessel and this kills it on the spot, nobody likes it, nobody wants it, nobody owns one, recall thinking highly of people having one, they are amazing for standing out and rebelling against utility(I am serious here; but do not take that as fighting the utility in this thread, there's difference)

- caravels.. enormous, ugly, huge, insane, crazy.... BIG .... but again.. these are just around for looks, there's more pain to having one and using it than there's utility to actually use it

 

pros:

deep water vessels provide interesting high camera pov

 

cons:

- you have a headache using deep water vessel(read about navigating with one, parking, getting around tunnels and canals not accounting this odd choice, at places the map alone hates these boats, unless somebody loves wasting time to find workarounds, this will be indeed a headache boat to use)

- you have terrible experience parking such vessel(How do you park? You have high pov, you literally see just boat frame around you and 2nd or 3rd tile away from the boat.. and disembark there if you are lucky and you don't get the "this is too far, no, no, no", I'd call this annoying to be on the boat, disembark far from it, then turn around and walk back to the boat to be able to interact with it.)

- you have painful interaction memories from interacting with such vessels(distance for it's hold)

- some places on the map will leave you unable to continue your travels

- plenty of tunnels do the same

 

Conclusion? Tie deep-water vessels to weight limits and capability to transfer more at higher speed, while knarrs are kept at current limitations as they are for weight(nobody likes nerfs), this will promote any dirt/brick/etc bulk material delivery person to switch to a caravel or cog for a long travel as there's lets say 25% speed boost or whatever.

Main thing, I don't care what changes, but all boats, not just deep water boats(people normally do not move towns with all they own all the time) need some kind of a boost, QL does nothing when you're not traveling in wind's direction. Rarity with it's ghost passenger was stripped, currently you can load alts on a boat and I can't recall do they boost speed(I think that was a thing at some point, maybe still is..) Should we all ride some exploitable meta or fix the game for everybody and improve the experience?

 

It's great that you can roleplay and zig-zag, get drunk irl and sail at top speed and not realize what is happening but have a blast of experience, you know what though, most people wont be doing that or if it happens to all, it wont be every time they sail.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Finnn said:

or fix the game for everybody and improve the experience?

but there are no bugs other than problems with perms while changing servers, so what do you want? only you are having a problem to sail properly so maybe problem doesnt lie in the game/system/whatever but in you?

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Wurm sailing is boring as F. Compare it to other games where the act of sailing is far more engaging, granted the seas are also far more dynamic aesthetically. Valheim is a good example of this, the player is kept engaged more or less.

 

Granted such systems require a lot of infrastructure work and skill; however, there are also simpler workarounds...

 

Simply allowing the captain to do more on the ship, such as crafting. Atm current mechanics actually inhibit ways to spend the freetime sailing. Also of course, upping the minimum ship speeds as mentioned already.

 

Edited by Karrde

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Sailing speed should scale with distance from land.  That way ocean sailing can actually be scaled to account for the 8x time factor and travel can be more realistic.   

 

The whole time compression thing in Wurm is poorly done.  A day and night cycles at 8x normal, and affects crops, seasons etc, but does not affect movement of vehicles.  So in effect a boat going 12kph is actually only going the analogue of 1.5kph, or less than 1 knot.  An average sailing vessel from the age of sail would cruise at a little over 4 knots, which is roughly 7.5kph, or in Wurm time the equivalent of about 60kph.

 

So, for the perception of a basic sailing cruise speed, your Wurm boat needs to go at 60kph.  It is no wonder Wurm sailing feels slow. 

Edited by TheTrickster
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