Defiance PMKS March 7th

[Trash 190]

Just now, platinumteef said:

a character merge from SFI to defiance via portal would probably help solve the issues that are arising, with the great experience and leadership that panda and kj would provide, paired with the exceptional news reports coming from capibara the server would be in a much healthier state

that would solve no leaders... possibly
+1

[DADLER 172]

1 hour ago, platinumteef said:

a character merge from SFI to defiance via portal would probably help solve the issues that are arising, with the great experience and leadership that panda and kj would provide, paired with the exceptional news reports coming from capibara the server would be in a much healthier state

It’s the nuclear option but I like it.  PMKs would buy a little bit of time and also open the door for that scenario.  However it would probably be a monstrous effort on the dev side to implement and cut into the other aspects of the game that are being worked on.  I wish we could get a developers take on what a change like that would require in terms of workload.  That way it’ll help put it into perspective for the ignorant minds like myself. 
 

edit: nuclear option is removing pvp.

Edited February 28, 2023 by DADLER

[Gavaldor 34]

Hint: The tone in which you read my previous and this post is your own choice, not mine to make. Its impossible to formulate posts here in a way that everyone understands or is pleased with. Those who want to take offense in it will.

 

The whole point of my posts are to give the devs a hint about what they are doing wrong, I do not really care about the players opinion, because its not theirs to fix. If players want to try to influence the devs to not fix the problem, sure, let the game die and stagnate like the old servers.

 

13 hours ago, DADLER said:

[...] What does “breaking a power imbalance” look like? I think you have to be careful with the choice of words here.  Does breaking the power imbalance involve punishing people who put in work and time to get where they are today?  

 

It means rebalancing the game, not "fix" individual characters. I always am careful with my choice of words, if you want to read something into them to be offended I can't help you.

 

Yes, people who are currently massively overpowered would be less powerful in regards to other people. That would include me, I'm a veteran as well, just trained in different areas than you. The whole point of my post is pointing out a the fact that should be obvious but everyone is looking away from: that the game (i.e. not talking about people, even though I could say something about those at well) is toxic towards new players as far as pvp servers are concerned.

 

The people who put in the work and time to get where they are today made a huge mistake, they killed the game because they rushed so far ahead from other people that a power imbalance manifested, and the fact that this happens is a major flaw in the game mechanics and game balance. Fixing it obviously involves reducing the power gap which always will feel "punishing" to those players, because it devalues their efforts they have put in. The only other alternative is turning the game into a museum like the old servers. Thats what will happen naturally. Any band aid applied as discussed in this thread will just revive the game a short time and then leave it off worse because more people left.

 

12 hours ago, DADLER said:

Whats the situation that needs fixing exactly?

 

That new players get victimized, to feed the veterans desire for gameplay, and leave. Thats the gameplay mechanic of the pvp servers once the power imbalance has been established after a new server started. At this point you can only escape it by having detailed knowledge about how to not play the game. And you can never successfully pvp when following that strategy, because its (realistically) impossible to "catch up" with the veterans. You have to go out of your way and hide from veterans too far ahead of you in the gameplay curve, and actively seek out either people in your area of the gameplay curve, or weaker people to abuse.

 

Make the game more attractive to new players, not only in pve, but also on pvp servers. That involves rebalancing the game so that new players can be successful too, including in pvp. I don't want to tell the devs how exactly to rebalance, its their choice to imagine how the game should work, but apparently someone needs to point them at the obvious issue because they don't have any monitoring in place to know about player flow, nor have anyone playing the pvp server unbiased enough to notice the problem? If the game cannot get new players to have an enjoyable and successful experience, its a dead game.

 

10 hours ago, platinumteef said:

a character merge from SFI to defiance via portal would probably help solve the issues that are arising [...]

 

Its exactly the same non-solution as driving people off starter. Its a short term bandaid to bring in a few "old new" players to revive the gameplay experience of the veterans. It has the advantage over driving people off starter, that it will draw in more veterans who possibly are similarly unbalanced than existing veterans, so it would mix up the power imbalance, but not fix it. It does nothing to enable new players to be successful.

[Gavaldor 34]

Quote

[...] I don't want to tell the devs how exactly to rebalance, its their choice to imagine how the game should work [...]

 

So just to throw in some ideas, so people don't complain about me not giving any suggestions in a threading asking for suggestions ... (not saying any of these suggestions are what should be done, they are just starting points to think about)

 

The idea of starter islands was to be the place where people can catch up with the established players. Thats what MR is using it for, currently, except the games mechanics isn't giving them any chance to actually ever catch up enough to be competitive and move off starter naturally. If you don't want to devalue existing veterans achievements too much, you can just reinforce that original idea and massively boost start island capabilities to catch up and get peoples skills and equip on competitive levels. This probably will still require fine tuning the combat formulas since at high skills its massively unbalanced and easily tips off. Anyways, most people will probably move off starter islands naturally when they feel they are capable of playing pvp somewhat successfully, there are already incentives to be off starter (depots, hota, bigger deeds ...) and can add more. To be able to "catch up" one option would be giving people playing on starter island/kingdom skill gain bonus (like the epic skill curves) to catch up to veterans, or whatever else you can imagine, maybe something more object-based (like holy sites) on starter giving out buffs, whatever.

 

Of course that will still be dissatisfying to veteran players if people actually can catch up to them without spending as much affort, and possibly even drive them back to starter in desire of taking advantage of these mechanics. So this is just a start for thoughts and not something ready to implement. But its either boosting new players or nerfing veterans, or a combination of both. The only other option is starting an entirely new server with fixed endgame mechanics and leave defiance as museum for those who want to value their achievements over having a functioning pvp server.

 

If boosting new players doesn't feel like a good approach, another approach would be to block pvp where the power gap is too large, by removing incentives to pvp in these cases. This requires quantifying the power gap in code and disabling any rewards/punishments if a power gap is detected in players involved in the fight (i.e. those appearing on death list). Remove item and affinity loss (punishment) and affinity and statistic gain (reward) in these cases. Still, this pvp blocking will not be sufficient to actually ever catch up to some of the veterans, so it effectively would exclude them from pvp, and its probably very hard to get the code judging the power gap right, so definitely needs more thought if going in this direction. Also doesn't really feel in the spirit of wurm to me, just wanted to bring an example of there being more than one way to the same goal.

 

So yeah, I'm fine with all of this being ignored, its just suggestions where to start thinking for people who have no clue at all, because the things being discussed before are not suitable to fix the problem. My main point remains that the problem is new players are victimized and the core game mechanics make it impossible for them to be successful in pvp against veterans. You should be fixing these problems, not just make the game more enjoyable for the veterans, because if you don't, no new people will be coming and the server will die the same slow death as the old servers.

(I also remind you that I count myself as veteran, so depending on which route the fixes will take, if they ever are made, I expect to either be boosted to be competitive in pvp, or be penalized along with the other veterans. Its really up to the devs and personally I don't care as I don't value my own time and achievements over having a functioning community. Defiance without a healthy player flow is a dead server to me, as my main motivation is not just bashing heads in pvp with the same old veterans over and over again, as a lot of people want things to be. If thats not the game devs want it to be, thats their thing to decide, I just wanted to point out it doesn't have to be.)

Edited March 1, 2023 by Gavaldor

[Anglomango 116]

They should just increase the skill curves for body stats so at 50 body stats you have 90% of all the benefits you can achieve from the skill and the remaining 50 skill points will only get you another 10%. I Don't care if this devalues the people with no life's that play all day long, if you want to be a god play on Chaos. This would at least allow new players the ability to catchup and be competitive in a reasonable amount of time. Defiance is suppose to be appealing to new players which it currently isn't . 

[Atndy 385]

7 minutes ago, Anglomango said:

They should just increase the skill curves for body stats so at 50 body stats you have 90% of all the benefits you can achieve from the skill and the remaining 50 skill points will only get you another 10%. I Don't care if this devalues the people with no life's that play all day long, if you want to be a god play on Chaos. This would at least allow new players the ability to catchup and be competitive in a reasonable amount of time. Defiance is suppose to be appealing to new players which it currently isn't . 

-1 50 is way to low and achievable in a few weeks by just mining. You shouldn't gimp someone just because they want to play the game and you don't. Also when the way they set up defiance even trash is killable. Mechanics are there you just need to leave deed and not give up to use them. But when you decide you've lost before even stepping off deed that's where the problem lays. 

[platinumteef 2,201]

10 minutes ago, Anglomango said:

They should just increase the skill curves for body stats so at 50 body stats you have 90% of all the benefits you can achieve from the skill and the remaining 50 skill points will only get you another 10%. I Don't care if this devalues the people with no life's that play all day long, if you want to be a god play on Chaos. This would at least allow new players the ability to catchup and be competitive in a reasonable amount of time. Defiance is suppose to be appealing to new players which it currently isn't . 

 

Epic is waiting for you. if you want to be a god at 30 strength thats the cluster for you, not defiance or chaos. They made that cluster for people like yourself.

[Anglomango 116]

epic was pretty chill tbh too bad its dead 

[Anglomango 116]

4 minutes ago, platinumteef said:

 

Epic is waiting for you. if you want to be a god at 30 strength thats the cluster for you, not defiance or chaos. They made that cluster for people like yourself.

 

30 body strength would be too low besides the whole point is nobody should be crazily overpowered compared to average players. The whole point is to increase the accessibility for the game and help incentivise those players to pvp. 

[Trash 190]

2 minutes ago, Anglomango said:

 

30 body strength would be too low besides the whole point is nobody should be crazily overpowered compared to average players. The whole point is to increase the accessibility for the game and help incentivise those players to pvp. 

maybe use better gear

[Anglomango 116]

Just now, Trash said:

maybe use better gear

 

If only there were suggestions to help with that hmmmmm 🤪

[Trash 190]

1 minute ago, Anglomango said:

 

If only there were suggestions to help with that hmmmmm 🤪

It has never been easier to make gear in wurm, I really don't see Issue

[Anglomango 116]

Just now, Trash said:

It has never been easier to make gear in wurm, I really don't see Issue

 

Maybe if you don't see the problem you are maybe part of the problem idk? What is your guys suggestions to help new players? 👀👀

[platinumteef 2,201]

2 minutes ago, Anglomango said:

 

Maybe if you don't see the problem you are maybe part of the problem idk? What is your guys suggestions to help new players? 👀👀

 

spend half the amount of time that you do per day on the forums mining or woodcutting instead, take another quarter of that and focus on your gear, take the last quarter and spend it on learning the mechanics such as which weapons work best against what armor type

 

you guys take two fights a year, how do you not have loads of 99ql armor stocked up

Edited March 1, 2023 by platinumteef

[Trash 190]

1 minute ago, Anglomango said:

 

Maybe if you don't see the problem you are maybe part of the problem idk? What is your guys suggestions to help new players? 👀👀

what do u consider a new player?
 

[Anglomango 116]

Just now, Trash said:

what do u consider a new player?
 

 

I guess a good metric would be someone under 50 body stats, asking for a friend 😅

[Anglomango 116]

4 minutes ago, platinumteef said:

 

spend half the amount of time that you do per day on the forums mining or woodcutting instead, take another quarter of that and focus on your gear, take the last quarter and spend it on learning the mechanics such as which weapons work best against what armor type

 

you guys take two fights a year, how do you not have loads of 99ql armor stocked up

 

I don't even think we have anyone who can imp armour up to 99ql which is why I suggested upping the rates for imping armour and weapons to 80ql because we dont have as many people with high skills as you. If it takes me 5 hours to replace my gear and double that to get it re enchanted why would I want to take fights I know I would lose even if I know they would be fun. 😩

[Anglomango 116]

I dont care about fighting and losing what I care about is how boring it is to regear 😢

[platinumteef 2,201]

10 minutes ago, Anglomango said:

I dont care about fighting and losing what I care about is how boring it is to regear 😢

 

ask for improved improve or something, and if you are having trouble recasting as a lib priest on defiance.. well thats another problem that you shouldn't be running into and are doing something wrong managing saccables

 

[Atndy 385]

21 minutes ago, Anglomango said:

 

I guess a good metric would be someone under 50 body stats, asking for a friend 😅

Well dang guess I'm a new player.

[Anglomango 116]

3 minutes ago, platinumteef said:

 

ask for improved improve or something, and if you are having trouble recasting as a lib priest on defiance.. well thats another problem that you shouldn't be running into and are doing something wrong managing saccables

 

Well now you see our dilemma I would love to take fights every day even if we lost 99% of them. Which is why I would love to see suggestions that would help make that happen. 

 

[Atndy 385]

1 minute ago, Anglomango said:

Well now you see our dilemma I would love to take fights every day even if we lost 99% of them. Which is why I would love to see suggestions that would help make that happen. 

 

Problem is you won't lose 99% of fights. Lib has unlimited favor. Takes maybe an hour to regear completely.

[Flempest 18]

1 hour ago, platinumteef said:

 

spend half the amount of time that you do per day on the forums mining or woodcutting instead, take another quarter of that and focus on your gear, take the last quarter and spend it on learning the mechanics such as which weapons work best against what armor type

 

you guys take two fights a year, how do you not have loads of 99ql armor stocked up

Some people spend time on the forum on their phone while at work. So a time when you are not able to play the game.
I guess it must be really hard to understand that some people would like to enjoy pvp, but can not put in 16 hours a day..
As for myself, I have about 2 hours average a day to spend (sometimes more, sometimes less) on Wurm and yes I would love to spend it on pvp.
I'll probably be "pvp ready" when the server is long dead, if you guys don't start to think about creating a fun pvp environment in stead of benefits for your own group.

But hey, I guess you all consider it "a win" when you are the only ones left..


As for suggestions.. (not really able to be implemented to Defiance though)
What I would love to play on, is a server or cluster of servers where you can skill up and once you hit a certain level you have to go to a next "stage" (server).
With every "higher" server having more valuables or/and more events on it.
That way groups can skill up and once they are ready they can at least put up a real fight before getting destroyed completely from start or just not being able to actually pvp.
They can go out pvp'ing knowing they will meet people who are at a same level. When they get stronger they will have to go to a new server anyway.
So no overpowered groups can establish on the road to the "end server"
It may be a stupid idea with the current player base, but who knows that it makes people give pvp a chance because they don't have the feeling that they are fighting (skilling) for a lost cause.

[Carmichael 685]

I think trinkets for body stats would be good, but capping it at 60-70 skill would be good enough.

 

Adding more rift like dungeons would be good too, at certain areas in the map once you kill all the creatures and waves at the end you get random trinkets to help boost body stats. This will replace jewelry slots, so you lose out on magic buffs/debuffs. Making these hard enough to not do by yourself and with a group of 3-4 at a minimum.

 

Then every month add new trinkets that can add defensive bonuses or random skillgain bonuses in certain skills. It can be crafting related too. So something like 10% increase to weaponsmithing skill gain. Or +20 weaponsmithing skill. 

 

Or simply adding gems to jewelry makes a trinkets, and blessing it gives specific buffs.

 

Or make 70 meditation more attainable for PoK, aka fix it so I'm not stuck not any getting skill ticks 2 days in a row. And that's with a right ql med rug and high coc for difficulty. Then everyone has the 25% buff. Or at lower levels you get more than 25%. 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Carmichael

[Atndy 385]

48 minutes ago, Flempest said:

Some people spend time on the forum on their phone while at work. So a time when you are not able to play the game.
I guess it must be really hard to understand that some people would like to enjoy pvp, but can not put in 16 hours a day..
As for myself, I have about 2 hours average a day to spend (sometimes more, sometimes less) on Wurm and yes I would love to spend it on pvp.
I'll probably be "pvp ready" when the server is long dead, if you guys don't start to think about creating a fun pvp environment in stead of benefits for your own group.

But hey, I guess you all consider it "a win" when you are the only ones left..


As for suggestions.. (not really able to be implemented to Defiance though)
What I would love to play on, is a server or cluster of servers where you can skill up and once you hit a certain level you have to go to a next "stage" (server).
With every "higher" server having more valuables or/and more events on it.
That way groups can skill up and once they are ready they can at least put up a real fight before getting destroyed completely from start or just not being able to actually pvp.
They can go out pvp'ing knowing they will meet people who are at a same level. When they get stronger they will have to go to a new server anyway.
So no overpowered groups can establish on the road to the "end server"
It may be a stupid idea with the current player base, but who knows that it makes people give pvp a chance because they don't have the feeling that they are fighting (skilling) for a lost cause.

I have maybe 2 or 3 hours to play a day. My account is on wurmnode. I also have a crafter with 98 blacksmithing and slowly working on chain smithing. 2 hours a day is 14 hours a week. Spend all that mining and the 2 years the server has been up you'd be close to 70 body strength. Please explain to me what the issue is. Regardless of that defiance is already on a curve with player vs player body strength.

 

So what do you want? Even playing fields? What's the point of skilling your account then? Free gear? Depot already gives that. You want free sleep powder to grind? Chest, Depot, hunting. Like every advantage in the game is ok defiance and yet your complaint is to point at someone and say they are better instead of just working on yourself. 

 

Nerfing starter areas isn't to push new players out we would never raid new players into the ground and take all their stuff. It's for the vets that hide behind all the benefits with no risk.