Darklords

Defiance PMKS

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10 minutes ago, Darklords said:

PMK's offer full control over a kingdom, that is just a trade off your always more then free to stay in one of the base kingdoms. You can always bash the lights to move them also.

That's a shitty excuse. We are already forced to pay a gold because the systems in play. (Reputation, no way to take hostile advanced toward same kingdom) now you are restricting us even more? If you ask me there should have never been base kingdoms from the start it would allow you to see the rise and fall of kingdoms. Big -1 on this one. If you are going to gimp pmks why even release them?

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Seems a bit of a cop-out for not putting some small fixes to base kingdoms to make the king thing there better.

 

EDIT: as well as increase light no-build zone

Edited by Joemog

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4 minutes ago, Melros said:

Kind of seems like we're restricting player freedom with no real benefit to the gameplay itself. Pushing motivation for people to play in dysfunctional kingdoms due to map control opportunities and fueling future grievances of "well youre base kingdom so you have the advantage" griping for the years to come.

PMKS are locked down, usually invite only and generally much stronger/better organized.  We want to make sure the base kingdoms people first join have plenty of space and are not going to get bullied off the map. The end of the day a pmk is a choice and if its not the right choice for you please feel free to use one of the base kingdoms. Otherwise we will be allowing a pmks in the middle of the map where people are free to use them.

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If PMK is such a choice we'll need much better civil war mechanics

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11 minutes ago, Joemog said:

If PMK is such a choice we'll need much better civil war mechanics

We really don't want to support any kingdom civil war stuff outside hots, we may add something like allowing hots to drain same kingdom deeds and just leave that as the anarchy kingdom as it was sort of intended to be.

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8 minutes ago, Darklords said:

PMKS are locked down, usually invite only and generally much stronger/better organized.  We want to make sure the base kingdoms people first join have plenty of space and are not going to get bullied off the map. The end of the day a pmk is a choice and if its not the right choice for you please feel free to use one of the base kingdoms. Otherwise we will be allowing a pmks in the middle of the map where people are free to use them.

You have three big islands. Why cut off 40% of the rest of the map? You already have raid timers which with two deeds at separate raid timers right beside each other you can just go between them and be completely safe 24/7 which imo is counter productive for pvp. 

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6 minutes ago, Darklords said:

We really don't want to support any kingdom civil war stuff outside hots, we may add something like allowing hots to drain same kingdom deeds and just leave that as the anarchy kingdom as it was sort of intended to be.

Can we atleast fix people bypassing un-allied deeds blocking? What exactly are you supposed to do when someone is set on being against you and can deed literally next to you?

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-1

You have your player base (from all sides/kingdoms) here telling you exactly what they want/need/think and you are choosing to disregard it. Listen to your players.

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4 minutes ago, Atndy said:

You have three big islands. Why cut off 40% of the rest of the map? You already have raid timers which with two deeds at separate raid timers right beside each other you can just go between them and be completely safe 24/7 which imo is counter productive for pvp. 

Because this is the trade off for enabling pmks as has been mentioned since the start. We do not want pmks to take over the entire map, but are willing to enable them in the middle area for those who want them.

 

3 minutes ago, Joemog said:

Can we atleast fix people bypassing un-allied deeds blocking? What exactly are you supposed to do when someone is set on being against you and can deed literally next to you?

What ways do people currently bypass it? We could for sure fix any ways around that.

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1 minute ago, Rockmodd said:

-1

You have your player base (from all sides/kingdoms) here telling you exactly what they want/need/think and you are choosing to disregard it. Listen to your players.

We can always expand it, reducing it is not something we can do once people have deeded and expanded into it. There is always going to be cases where people want 1 thing but due to balance concerns we won't be able to give them exactly that people asked for pmks and this is how we are willing to offer it if this won't work we can always shelve the pmks and look into other routes.

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24 minutes ago, Darklords said:

PMKS are locked down, usually invite only and generally much stronger/better organized.  We want to make sure the base kingdoms people first join have plenty of space and are not going to get bullied off the map. The end of the day a pmk is a choice and if its not the right choice for you please feel free to use one of the base kingdoms. Otherwise we will be allowing a pmks in the middle of the map where people are free to use them.

 

Quote from Defiance article on the wiki:

 

Quote

Defiance only rules:

  • Starting areas have a zone around them providing some extra benefits and restrictions.
    • Much stronger tower guard spawns inside this zone instead of the normal ones.
    • Reduced damage from siege weapons.
    • Villages here have no silver removed when drained, only left in to allow breaking mine reinforcements.
    • Shorter raid windows than outside the starting islands.
    • Max village size 10 tiles in each direction with no additional perimeter allowed inside this zone.
    • Capitals cannot be located inside this safe zone.
    • Artifacts in the safe zone will lose charges every hour even when on players.
    • Battle camp towers cannot spawn inside or within 100 tiles of safe areas.

 

There was already an implementation for "base kingdoms people first join have plenty of space and are not going to get bullied off the map." They have an entire island to themselves when they first get to the server. This artificial PMK map is entirely unnecessary. The problem you're presenting has already been solved by the starter zones at the inception of Defiance.

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7 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

 

Quote from Defiance article on the wiki:

 

 

There was already an implementation for "base kingdoms people first join have plenty of space and are not going to get bullied off the map." They have an entire island to themselves when they first get to the server. This artificial PMK map is entirely unnecessary. The problem you're presenting has already been solved by the starter zones at the inception of Defiance.

Because its easy to say oh this won't have any effect the base kingdoms will be fine, but we just are not willing to let this lose on the entire map in 1 go and hope for the best for them. How fun would it be to basically be camped into a small corner by the more organized pmks? I've been on both sides this is not coming from a lack of experience in this area.

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I agree with Darklords.  I think the increased boarders are more then enough for the PMKs, especially given all the benefits they give

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37 minutes ago, Darklords said:

We can always expand it, reducing it is not something we can do once people have deeded and expanded into it. There is always going to be cases where people want 1 thing but due to balance concerns we won't be able to give them exactly that people asked for pmks and this is how we are willing to offer it if this won't work we can always shelve the pmks and look into other routes.

 This logic works backwards tho too. Base kingdom people can just deed the unavailible to pmk areas which would stop you from expanding it in the future and because the PMKs can never deed or tower in that area making control difficult to prove/justify expansion. 

Edited by Melros
sentence structure.

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26 minutes ago, Darklords said:

Because its easy to say oh this won't have any effect the base kingdoms will be fine, but we just are not willing to let this lose on the entire map in 1 go and hope for the best for them. How fun would it be to basically be camped into a small corner by the more organized pmks? I've been on both sides this is not coming from a lack of experience in this area.

 

The base kingdoms will not be fine. They will not be fine even with the map restricted. Players will gravitate towards PMK's for increased membership control and there's no way to avoid this. They'll have the higher player base and, as you mentioned, stronger organization. They'll run the map and the base kingdoms will be drained of all players. If your goal is to keep base kingdoms relevant, you cannot add PMK's at all.

 

The real problem is that I don't understand the goals here. The PMK map restriction is artificial and doesn't solve any problems from a design perspective.

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31 minutes ago, Darklords said:

Because its easy to say oh this won't have any effect the base kingdoms will be fine, but we just are not willing to let this lose on the entire map in 1 go and hope for the best for them. How fun would it be to basically be camped into a small corner by the more organized pmks? I've been on both sides this is not coming from a lack of experience in this area.

They are already pushed back to starter deeds by organized base kingdom players. I fail to see your point. 

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I agree with the proposed map changes. The vocal minority is speaking for the entire PvP population again in an attempt to get their way.

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realistically all a pmk gives you is choice of king and some resistance to metagaming ###### like sniping hotas because they're kingdom based not alliance based like they were in the previous hota, tower guards not attacking same kingdom spy alts, people looking for poorly set permissions with alts yadda yadda. organized players will still be the same, limiting pmks to certain areas doesn't fundamentally change it and from that map you can easily box in bl and prevent them from chaining to mainland with roughly a dozen towers and two deeds whereas jk has reasonable space and mr has a massive space without pmks so that's not really balanced between the kingdoms either.

 

i'm not really for or against pmk's and honestly would just prefer no pmk's with more effort put into alliance based factions + war dec'ing but limiting area they can be is just a copout. if you want the base kingdoms to stay relevant you need to actually like, advertise/incentivize pvp so there's new people coming in instead of doing three lines of pvp changes a year and hoping it suddenly has hundreds of players to fill 3 base kingdoms + pmks, because it's just the same groups of players cannibalizing each other currently and they're going to gravitate towards pmks

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5 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

realistically all a pmk gives you is choice of king and some resistance to metagaming ###### like sniping hotas because they're kingdom based not alliance based like they were in the previous hota, tower guards not attacking same kingdom spy alts, people looking for poorly set permissions with alts yadda yadda. organized players will still be the same, limiting pmks to certain areas doesn't fundamentally change it and from that map you can easily box in bl and prevent them from chaining to mainland with roughly a dozen towers and two deeds whereas jk has reasonable space and mr has a massive space without pmks so that's not really balanced between the kingdoms either.

 

i'm not really for or against pmk's and honestly would just prefer no pmk's with more effort put into alliance based factions + war dec'ing but limiting area they can be is just a copout. if you want the base kingdoms to stay relevant you need to actually like, advertise/incentivize pvp so there's new people coming in instead of doing three lines of pvp changes a year and hoping it suddenly has hundreds of players to fill 3 base kingdoms + pmks, because it's just the same groups of players cannibalizing each other currently and they're going to gravitate towards pmks

Right, instead of limiting PMKs give base kingdom tools to deal with those same issues.

 

That being said I'm not really against that map. I just think there's a danger of Defiance dying out real fast again if nothing else is changed and nobody even makes a PMK.

Edited by Joemog
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2 hours ago, Darklords said:

PMK's offer full control over a kingdom, that is just a trade off your always more then free to stay in one of the base kingdoms. You can always bash the lights to move them also.

Can you make the lights bash-able then please?? I am reliably informed and having tried they are practically unbash-able even with “break alter”…. Can we have them set the same as chaos? If the lights do become bash-able it could help a little, otherwise the proposed changes are fundamentally a large disadvantage to PMKs altogether! 

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1 minute ago, Pnutp said:

Can you make the lights bash-able then please?? I am reliably informed and having tried they are practically unbash-able even with “break alter”…. Can we have them set the same as chaos? If the lights do become bash-able it could help a little, otherwise the proposed changes are fundamentally a large disadvantage to PMKs altogether! 

Ya we can remove the break altar nerf that seems fair, also will be increasing the quality of the artifacts back to normal which should help there also.

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Maybe reduce the cost to PMK to 50s since you can only PMK about 50% of the map.

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46 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

advertise/incentivize pvp so there's new people coming in instead of doing three lines of pvp changes a year and hoping it suddenly has hundreds of players to fill 3 base kingdoms + pmks, because it's just the same groups of players cannibalizing each other currently and they're going to gravitate towards pmks

Basically this. If you want new blood for pvp, gotta do something actually new.

I always felt Defiance should've been wiped every year, rewarding all participants and top performing players in various metrics, but that's a whole other discussion. 

 

Pmks will bring some life back to Defiance, sure, but for how long lol

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Any chance of letting kingdoms ally with each other?  My idea is something much less formal and less mechanically structured then deed alliances.

 

1) a 1 to 1 alliance.  Kingdom A is allied with both Kingdom B and Kingdom C, but Kingdom's B and C are not allied to each other (unless they want to be).  So you're not forced to be allied with everybody your ally is allied to.

 

2) being in an alliance only changes the highlight color of it's players.   Right now, enemies are red, people in your deed/alliance are green, people in your kingdom you're not allied with are blue.  I suggest making a new highlight color, maybe yellow?  and kingdom allies would highlight this color.  That's it.  Nothing more.  No chat tabs, no cross kingdom beneficial spells.  Why include this?  I think it would be great if the smaller, weaker kingdoms could gang up on the stronger kingdoms, help in raids and stuff.  They can do this now, but when everybody highlights red I imagine it will be difficult to tell who's who in the heat of battle.  A simple color change would alleviate this.

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3 hours ago, Darklords said:

We want to make sure the base kingdoms people first join have plenty of space and are not going to get bullied off the map.

 

It's not inexperienced players that will be running the template kingdoms though. So ultimately experienced players abilities to control the map via template kingdoms will be buffed, and there will be 0 reward for the money spent and risk taken to PMK??

 

3 hours ago, Joemog said:

Seems a bit of a cop-out for not putting some small fixes to base kingdoms to make the king thing there better.

 

Joemog wants it easier for him to get the JK crown. Why will template kingdoms have a crown at all after PMKs are released? Epic home servers didn't have crowns.

Edited by Pukaria
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