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Sheffie

Treasure maps make you go too far

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There, I said it.

 

I think that on small (8km x 8km) maps, the treasure maps are balanced just about right.

On medium (16km x 16km) maps, they make you go too far.

On Xanadu (32km x 32km), it's a cruel and unusual punishment.

 

  • Make the average distance you get sent, on medium maps, around half what it is currently,
  • Make the average distance you get sent on Xanadu around a quarter of what it is currently

 

These changes only need to apply for treasure maps ql 30+ - easy ones don't send you too far.

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Preach. The distances between clues can be insane. I would love to see things toned down a bit.

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-1  Disagree.

 

The main driving force for implementing the treasure hunt was EXPLORATION.  It's a way to get people off of their deeds to far away places they might never see otherwise.

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Kinda torn on this, but I have to admit that being a Xanadu resident has turned me off from doing higher QL maps for above stated reason.

If I was on a smaller Server, I most likely would be doing them, but on Xanadu one higher QL map can easily turn into a full RL day of an adventure and that for the same reward people on a smaller (and thus easier to do) Server get.

I don't think its worth it for me on Xanadu, specially if on a smaller Server people have a so much easier time doing them, it's kinda putting me off having to put so much more effort into it for the same reward.

 

The System is great, I liked doing the smaller ones and I wish I would have the time to do a big one, but as is I just can't justify it.

I lack the time to travel for 2-4 hours just to find one clue and then make it back home and log for the day. :(

 

On the other side, yea exploration is great, I have seen more of my surroundings than ever, but maps need to be put into perspective - make the distance not scale to server size so it becomes a fair and equal game for everyone, regardless where you settle.

Maps actually for the first time make me regret being on Xanadu.

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1 hour ago, Milkdrop said:

make the distance not scale to server size so it becomes a fair and equal game for everyone, regardless where you settle.

Maps actually for the first time make me regret being on Xanadu.

 

Thank you. This is what I was trying to say.

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Unless I’m doing the difficult (60+ ql) maps, I’m not terribly upset about the distance between clues. This is on Harmony, a 16km x 16km map. 

 

Even then, the most annoying thing is when clues that lead me to, say, C10 to Q20 to C10 again. (Exaggerating, but it feels that way sometimes. And also feels like an obvious “generating semi-randomized faraway clue” instead of “this is the next step on your cohesive journey”.) It’d be more satisfying to feel like the clues actually led the way TO the treasure instead of back and forth across map just because. That could just be my flawed perception, though. Maybe I should draw paths of my next few maps and see if I’m just zigzagging or if it looks like it makes a bit more sense than that. :)
 

Is Cadence especially painful to treasure hunt on because of the water? Is Xanadu especially painful because of the steep terrain?

 

I guess the main question is: Are the clues spaced apart by Map Grid squares? If so, maybe they ought to base it on tile distance instead (so 32x32 maps like Xanadu would be less daunting).

 

If it’s already based on tile distance, then maybe it’s presence/lack of bridges/roads to accommodate terrain that makes certain servers way “worse”-feeling for treasure hunting. 

 

And maybe it should not only be based on tile distance, but also account for elevation change. 

 

And for the tiny 8x8km maps… I guess they’re just “lucky”…

 

EDIT: Oops, looks like people already confirmed it’s based on the Map Grid Squares? Well, that’s silly, change it to tile distance and maybe elevation change, then! 

Edited by Lovelie

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+1 I'm on Xan and have hunted down treasures from 1ql to 80+ql maps. The distances for the 70+ are quite daunting sometimes. Also some of the spots are not attainable without wings or spending weeks tunneling a new path up to them as the old tunnels have long since caved in. The rewards for these efforts are just not worth it.

Edited by Katrat
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Aren't map clue distances based on k/meters or normal tiles.. to even the ground?

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While Xanadu is 16x of an 8x8 server, and 4x of Independence/Harmony/Cadence size, I did not have a single map search exceeding the size of a 8x8 server. The "harder" ones often send you over long ways to ride, sometimes because a lake or fjord is in your way (in that case I sometimes summon an alt to ferry me over :) ) .

 

The really b*tchy maps here were all novice, rarely challenging, where either the location was very hard to figure, insane mountains to be climbed etc. The "difficult" ones were all fairly easy as it comes to the clues. I would like more of them as the fights are funny.

 

Generally, once the journal goal is met, there is no need to complete a map within a day. The maps have minimum weight and do not decay in inventory. It is well possible to keep more than one map, and do the clues once one is in the area anyway, or when several maps can be done there. So far, it never took me more than 3 hours to complete a map since I learnt the basics. And I am too impatient to follow my above advice 😎.

Edited by Ekcin
typo

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but.. why is there difference at all when it comes to distance, content is the same.. rewards are the same.. why do bigger maps have increased difficulty(well time and distance cost added to it all)

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I don't know whether smaller servers are easier. As there are hard to cross mountain ridges, lakes, fjords, bays, the 8x8 could be not easier. Comments from denizens of those servers welcome.

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3 hours ago, Ekcin said:

While Xanadu is 16x of an 8x8 server, and 4x of Independence/Harmony/Cadence size, I did not have a single map search exceeding the size of a 8x8 server. The "harder" ones often send you over long ways to ride, sometimes because a lake or fjord is in your way (in that case I sometimes summon an alt to ferry me over :) ) .

 

 

Are you counting in Map Grid Squares (like A1 , B2 , C3 , etc) or are you counting tiles? Because one Map Grid Square on Xanadu is about 400x400 tiles large and only about 100x100 tiles large on Melody. That's what I was trying to suss out in my post.

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Either scale the distance or scale the prize.

 

I'd actually opt for the latter since it brings more distinction between servers!

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I live on Melody and I love doing treasure maps on a small server.  Travel time from point A to B is decreased, if there is a road system or secret "shortcuts".  Fewer guard towers and abandoned deeds to learn.  The downside of Melody is a very poor road system, a lot of wild, tough terrain and many mobs to fight.  Many clues take you to mountain tops that if not careful you either fall and die or get trapped by the hordes of mobs on Melody.  The only way Melody maps work is if you are doing multiple maps at once, since some map locations are nothing short of brutal.  

 

So I guess you can either do maps on Melody, get hopelessly lost for hours (happens a lot), possibly killed, but travel less distance or have a larger server like Cad that is developed with good roads, less mobs, flatter terrain, but travel further.   

 

Pick your poison.  

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Xan is the largest server and I can say from experience that it's not all lovely even ground with tower riddled highways. It has quite a few mob heavy areas void of any towers at all and the terrain varies greatly from thick dense wood to steep unclimbable mountains and multiple water ways that make it necessary to have a good boat. Even though I use a speed runed Knarr quite often and don't worry to much for the mobs since my fs is in the 90s and I have a fast horse with all the bells and whistles that speed it up(a must have on Xan), and a descent sense of direction it can still take quite a while to reach a map spot and that's assuming it's not on the very top of a mountain whose tunnel ways have caved in or are blocked by buildings and walled in deeds. That's also assuming I don't get randomly disemberked halfway up those steep mountain sides(Which often tends to be fatal) while trying to find an external route up. Is all this worth a few sleep powder, a hand full of gems, yet another pawn/rook/knight etc, some rope, maybe a few deed tokens and a stack of paper? Most players I know don't seem to think so. In fact they freely give me their maps since I'm the only fool who has bothered to solve them.

Edited by Katrat
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On 11/19/2022 at 11:30 PM, Lovelie said:

Are you counting in Map Grid Squares (like A1 , B2 , C3 , etc) or are you counting tiles? Because one Map Grid Square on Xanadu is about 400x400 tiles large and only about 100x100 tiles large on Melody. That's what I was trying to suss out in my post.

Of course I am. I mentioned that Xanadu is 16 times the size of a small server. But I never had runs over more than a 5x5 Xanadu area which is the same as the size of a small server.

 

When you take others' maps consider that the center is the area where they picked up the casket, not you. You may then get e.g. a G13 centered map when obtaining one from my area.

 

And smaller maps are not automatically easier. Independence, due to her long history and larger crowds of players in the past, is riddled with small roads on impossible mountain ranges leading to nowwhere and more hard to pass terraces and dirt cliffs and few highways in some areas (I hated that when doing more rifts outside), masses of mobs can happen everywhere.  Xanadu has one of the most complete and elaborate highway, tunnel and canal systems (granted, Cele has the most beautiful tunnels). And ok, Xan has the highest mountains, but not so bad chances not to end up on one. A small server has more chances to run into mountaineering during a clue. So all servers have their problems.

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On 11/22/2022 at 4:24 AM, Ekcin said:

And ok, Xan has the highest mountains, but not so bad chances not to end up on one.

I've had several maps leading to mountaintops including one I'm carrying now.

wurm.20221125.2329.jpg

Show me the lovely highway that leads to that! Not that I expected one but I assure you not all of Xan has highway access.

 

Edited by Katrat

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Never said that it has. On contrary, I mentioned that I was dragged on mountaintops and high plateaus repeatedly, absurdly from novice maps, sometimes challenging ones.

 

What I am denying is that smaller servers are better off. Take Independence which has a terrible spaghetti of small roads leading to nowhere on a lot of places. Identifying even paved areas is a nightmare there. Smaller servers often force to cross mountain ranges and fjords, up to you to use ship, horse, whatever, making ways home extremely unpleasant.

 

And my main point is that maps on Xan rarely if ever exceed a 8x8 area from a starting point. If you live on a high plateau, granted, that will not be that great.

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4 hours ago, Ekcin said:

What I am denying is that smaller servers are better off.

You should do some deliverance maps.

 

99% of the map is traversable by horse, the exception being a few small deeded islands, but those won't even be counted for maps anyway.

 

Xanadu is simply a nightmare when we are talking traveling distance even on a fast horse. As for the huge mountains, yeah I do not live on Xan but would rather see my fellow players adequately rewarded for attempting to do maps there considering some mountains there require you to bring 100 stamina sandwiches just to do 1 step of a map.

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Lol I do a sip 1g booze 3 times for a tile with 90 slope. With one water skin full of good booze this takes you over the highest peaks of Xanadu and back, and is not even empty (2,500 sips).

If some Deli maps are easy, enjoy. I also had Xan maps with 2 steps, and a chess queen.

 

Edit: Eternal gratefulness to Malena to have demonstrated this method of climbing in her videos :)

Edited by Ekcin
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11 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Eternal gratefulness to Malena to have demonstrated this method of climbing in her videos

Agree. My Wurm life changed for the better when I saw her sip booze and regenerate stamina. Now every riding horse I have has a measuring jug with wine in it and an empty one set to 1g. I have no fear of climbing mountains or swimming across very large lakes.

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Aye always felt treasure should scale better depending on map/server size AND some kind of constant value that presents terrain difficulty per server.

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1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

Lol I do a sip 1g booze 3 times for a tile with 90 slope. With one water skin full of good booze this takes you over the highest peaks of Xanadu and back, and is not even empty (2,500 sips).

 

I'd like you to put yourself in the step of a new player that has zero tutorial that explains such a mechanic or how to make a stamina sandwich in the first place.

 

I'd like you to examine the gameplay experience for a new - semi new player that has zero indications such mechanics exist and if they should somehow be forced to have a more difficultt experience on Xanadu than other servers when it comes to doing maps.

 

I'd like an explanation in terms of game design and fairness, taking into account that new people have a way more difficult time to understand such systems vs vets.

 

Basically I'd like an explanation on how "this is a good thing" from you. * sarcastic hint * It's not.

Edited by elentari
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36 minutes ago, elentari said:

 

I'd like you to put yourself in the step of a new player that has zero tutorial that explains such a mechanic or how to make a stamina sandwich in the first place.

 

I'd like you to examine the gameplay experience for a new - semi new player that has zero indications such mechanics exist and if they should somehow be forced to have a more difficultt experience on Xanadu than other servers when it comes to doing maps.

 

I'd like an explanation in terms of game design and fairness, taking into account that new people have a way more difficult time to understand such systems vs vets.

 

Basically I'd like an explanation on how "this is a good thing" from you. * sarcastic hint * It's not.

I couldn't even imagine being a new player and getting a map like the one I posted. Particularly if they are not in or even aware of the forums. Even older players for that matter who are on the forums but missed posts are left in the dark. I've been playing since 2017 and never saw the video Eckin is referencing. 

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22 hours ago, Katrat said:

I've had several maps leading to mountaintops including one I'm carrying now.

wurm.20221125.2329.jpg

Show me the lovely highway that leads to that! Not that I expected one but I assure you not all of Xan has highway access.

 

Based on the topo map and classic map there is a road that takes you quite close to that area yes there is still some climbing involved but it isnt as impossible as it might seem but it is still a shitty location yes for sure

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