Wurmhole

Bring back healing in PvE

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So it is brought to my attention that the big healing nerf is a pvp balance issue.  My suggestion is to bring back the full power of healing on PvE servers.  Anyone doing rifts is probably frustrated by the debuff, as we have Fo priests firing off LoF and all our LT weapons, so about 1/3 the way through a rift, heals do basically nothing.  During the rift I recently participated in, I was starting to think my fighter was somehow bugged, because my LoF wasn't helping him, nor were direct heals.  It was so frustrating.

 

What is the point of having a healer in an MMO (maybe just MO here) that just can't heal?  Sure, the healers can keep making rift points I imagine, but it is healing for the sake of points, rather than doing much good to the fighting troops.

 

It is a very degenerative loop.  Every heal builds more resistance, so you have to apply more heals to get the same effect, which compounds the debuf.  To me, this seems like a pretty broken mechanic.

 

Being down to 10% health after getting hit with 3 LoF spells is pretty discouraging.

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Being able to infinitely be full health because you have priests tagging along sounds dire, I'd much rather my weapons and skills mean something more than just having enough priests behind me to get through any fight.

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2 hours ago, Madnath said:

Being able to infinitely be full health because you have priests tagging along sounds dire, I'd much rather my weapons and skills mean something more than just having enough priests behind me to get through any fight.

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What this guy said

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3 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

Sure, the healers can keep making rift points I imagine, but it is healing for the sake of points, rather than doing much good to the fighting troops.

I mean, thats what healers do anyway (and the materials cost to heal at that rate is extreme may I add) - the heal nerf hasn't changed that in the slightest.

 

2 hours ago, Madnath said:

Being able to infinitely be full health because you have priests tagging along sounds dire, I'd much rather my weapons and skills mean something more than just having enough priests behind me to get through any fight.

I'd much rather the skills I gave up the ability to improve for mattered too!

 

This is really just a "balance" attempt that might have fixed an issue in PvP, but introduced a loss of QoL in PvE. 

 

Just stick an if statement in the code that checks if the server is Chaos/Defiance when applying the heal debuff.  PvP gets to keep it's much needed fix, PvE gets to keep its QoL, and everyone is happy except for the people who aren't nice to their local Fo priests!

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I agree to Etherdrifter insofar as priest gains by healing and other AoE spells are nothing less but free. My priestess spends at least 2500 favor at each rift we participate, that means more than 200 cordage of average ql, or 260 wemp fibres (ql97+) which need to be planted, harvested, and processed to cordage using a rare fully imbued rope tool, and ropemaking skill >80, alternatively 1000 chopped garlic. A normal rift fighter just needs to repair equipment after the fight (which the priestess needs to do as well to some extent).

 

As to healing success, I do  not think that fighters need to have nor should rely on permanent full heal by priests. It is virtually impossible to provide that, and not even desirable. I never found my healing debuff turning LoF or SoL to zero effect, and never expected (though sometimes appreciated) full heal. In battle, you cannot expect the medic being on your side all times, namely as priests take risks and have to care for their own survival, too (my priestesss started rifting at 12 FS).

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13 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

So it is brought to my attention that the big healing nerf is a pvp balance issue

If magic healing without a debuff is over powered for human vs human combat, then it's over powered for human vs NPC as well.

 

14 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

What is the point of having a healer in an MMO (maybe just MO here) that just can't heal?

Saying Fo priest just can't heal is an exaggeration and you know it.

 

14 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

Sure, the healers can keep making rift points I imagine, but it is healing for the sake of points, rather than doing much good to the fighting troops.

Fo sure some heal only for rift points, but you are addressing the wrong problem.

 

14 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

Being down to 10% health after getting hit with 3 LoF spells is pretty discouraging.

git gud

 

10 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Just stick an if statement in the code that checks if the server is Chaos/Defiance when applying the heal debuff.

There is already too much code fragmentation between PvP and PvE.

 

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4 minutes ago, Karlton said:

If magic healing without a debuff is over powered for human vs human combat, then it's over powered for human vs NPC as well.

 

What you're stating there is that is something is overpowered in PvP combat then it must also be overpowered in PvE combat. Yet that is easily shown to be false with for example the following contradiction: Buff catapults so they one shot walls, now they are overpowered in PvP, yet they clearly aren't in PvE (as they're still as good as useless there).

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COTTON ,HEALING POTIONS ,SALVE were they gone , your killing of a massive part of the game with the healers getting way to many points to start with 

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24 minutes ago, Ecrir said:

 

What you're stating there is that is something is overpowered in PvP combat then it must also be overpowered in PvE combat. Yet that is easily shown to be false with for example the following contradiction: Buff catapults so they one shot walls, now they are overpowered in PvP, yet they clearly aren't in PvE (as they're still as good as useless there).

"something is overpowered in PvP combat then it must also be overpowered in PvE combat." Is your quote, and not mine.

 

As for staying on the topic of healing(and not addressing strawman arguments),  I just can't find a good enough reason for why it needs to be changed for PvE only.

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4 hours ago, Karlton said:

 

Saying Fo priest just can't heal is an exaggeration and you know it.

 

Fo sure some heal only for rift points, but you are addressing the wrong problem.

 

 

To be fair I was at the rift @Wurmholewas talking about. There were about 3 Fo priests absolutely SPAMMING Light of Fo plus the occasional Scorn of Libila, and I don't blame them, because the top player got maybe 300 or more points for a very short rift.

(My husband is telling me it was maybe 400 points but even I'm giving a lower guess, whatever it was it was definitely impressive for a really short rift)

 

 

The healing reduction mechanic is described as this:

The maximum duration of healing resistance is approximately 20 minutes, and the reduction scales linearly from that mark. 
For example, if you have 10 minutes of healing resistance remaining, you will receive heals at 50% normal effectiveness. 

So, after only a few minutes of fighting I already accumulated 20+ minutes of healing resistance, aka 100% heal resistance.

 

 

They brought enough favor to spam Light of Fo, which is great for them and their points!

 

But it actually actively harms some other players who, maybe under normal conditions, could stay in the fray longer and earn more points by fighting. Instead, he or she receives 0 heals instead of the usual occasional heal, and so is forced to avoid playing nearby others so he/she won't get healed to get rid of his/her debuff and/or leave the fight more often than usual to bandage up.

 

 

To be clear I don't know if there should be NO debuff whatsoever, but it was pretty amazing how quickly I got the maximum debuff, it was a bit nuts, so maybe the debuff is just too much for that case.

Edited by Lovelie
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Each LoF cast is 60 favour.  You'll use about 50+ casts per rift easily (so 3000+ favour)

 

Each LoF garners a capped amount of points and can only be cast after cooldown.

 

Spam healing at a rift is prohibitively expensive.  LoF is favoured as amount healed is not considered when awarding points (point hunters) and healing requires people to stand still (healers hell).

 

Regardless, this is about heal caps.

5 hours ago, Karlton said:

There is already too much code fragmentation between PvP and PvE.

Agreed, let's have HotA and custom kingdoms on PvE!

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16 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

I'd much rather the skills I gave up the ability to improve for mattered too!

 

Removing the heal resistance adds nothing additional to your skill other than making combat encounters trivial.

Change of background, if you all will:

You're fighting a dragon, no longer does your skill matter, rather than spending time being tanky you instead just have to hold out the time between each LoF cast because there's no longer heal resistance, your priest is now just sucking on gems and then recasting on an endless loop until the dragon is dead.

 

Game is better balanced without infinite heals.

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Also better defensive skills mean less healing resistance accumulated - not the spells raise it but the amont of damage healed. Endless healing made rifts and unique fights trivial the resistance added back some excitement into longer fights. Keep the resistance as is imho

Edited by Jaz
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4 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Agreed, let's have HotA and custom kingdoms on PvE!

+1 😃

 

And speaking seriously. Then just add non-magical ways to heal yourself. Alchemy potions, disinfecting bandages and so on. 

I tried several times to visit pvp.  In battle, I lived for 30 seconds, maybe 40. It's not balanced anyway. And as far as I can see, not popular. One way or another, code separation is already present. Then why not move in that direction. That does not interfere with the same WoW. Separate things and mechanics for pvp and pve. I do not know how and what happened in my life, maybe because of the external environment. But I just prefer to avoid unnecessary activities in the form of PvP.

 

I remember those days when I wake up to an alarm clock because of EVE online. Or in reconnaissance and ganking in the enemy's UO while they are in the process of farming.  But it was all exactly until the moment when I graduated from the institute. Something took me away to the wrong garden. No offense to PvP players will be told. But let's face it, you're not the only one playing the game. And you pay a monthly fee on a par with PvE players.

 

And you need to think about convenience for both sides at once. Or take the courage to realize that code splitting is inevitable.

As a programmer, I also fully understand the complexity of this process, and that it will make introducing new content more difficult.

 

But then there is a great expression "If you deny, then offer"

 

Edited by TheZvir
seriously speaking =)

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If we are being honest about PvE, how many of us players in PvE are playing for the combat adrenaline rush?  I can go weeks or months happily crafting, farming and mining on my deed.  Venture out once in a while to an event to score some blood, scale, rift mats and point... but is anyone in PvE out for the combat challenge?  Anyone that isn't already a PvP player?  Let's face it, the only real challenge in combat is against other players anyway, right?

 

I did take damage in a rift and actually died while in the alt pen, while my Fo was casting Heal multiple times and discovering it wasn't healing at all. Seems the Warmaster decided to spawn minions into the alt pen.  That's fair though.  Not a huge deal honestly.  Just seemed to me that getting rid of the heal debuff would make the lives of PvE players a bit easier.

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I can certainly understand this is frustrating (I'm getting the idea that wurmhole suffered from this, as this was added in 2018) but it already IS balanced for PvE, PvP has had resistances increased and higher rates, meaning PvE is specifically at a reduced resistance gain, meaning it's far friendlier on PvE. You can also go Path of Love, Healing hands doubles the heals from all sources, cotton, LT, ED, and healing spells 

 

 Adding to all of this discussion, cotton also can be used and has no resistance, meaning it's as effective the first time as it is any other time (and scales with skill!). While I'm all for "free healing" (for the fighter, as neither LT nor healing spells require any sort of input from the fighter, this isn't about the priest here in my statement) there are a lot of balances to make it fair, and non magical sources work fine too. 

 

I'm sorry you died Wurmhole (I assume, because of this thread) but the healing resistance has been fine for four years now, I don't think it's broken, you just hit a situation in which you couldnt heal your way out of, which in an MMO is pretty common to say you're in over your head (after all, potion and heals have cooldowns in other games too!) 

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4 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

how many of us players in PvE are playing for the combat adrenaline rush?

me 😃 Sometimes I just want to get away from mere affairs and do something where I can move around and not drag things from one menu to another 😃 In order to just do other gameplay, I have to play other games, warframe, etc.  I have hopes for new content with goblin camps.

 

3 hours ago, Archaed said:

but the healing resistance has been fine for four years now

Yeah. And the pet system has also been in the game for years, and the bow has not changed much. Does that make these aspects good?  =))

 

3 hours ago, Archaed said:

MMO is pretty common to say you're in over your head

And at that moment, the moment will come that they give you more options for actions, ranging from crowd control to the maneuver system. In most cases, you have the ability to pull out a difficult boss with different mechanics, so to say "I did it on the tips of my nails"

 

It’s just that when you don’t have variability, questions arise that something that already exists does not work as efficiently as you want.  I am a supporter of the fact that any changes and expansions are the path to evolution.  Stagnation only leads to degradation. 

 

3 hours ago, Archaed said:

heals from all sources, cotton, LT, ED, and healing spells 

 

Of which LT, ED, and healing spells are in the same resist pool, and you can just get to the point where they don't work at the same time. And cotton in battle to use this for yourself. If you could throw a trap or distract with a pet, or somehow divert attention from yourself and wrap one or two wounds. That would be interesting. But the only thing that can be abused is flawed AI. What is not very good. And we have to thank the developers that with such AI we do not have the mechanics of "evasion" Otherwise, our game would turn into torture.

 I'm not advocating the idea of reducing magical healing resistance. But the fact that something needs to be done is yes. Last but not least, Alchemy. Why can't you get drunk on different potions like the Witcher. Or apply oils (which give a temporary effect) to the weapon. Rework traps, finalize the taming system, etc.

 

It's easy for me to talk about PvE. Maybe. I play with my brother and we have the same adventure together. I can cover for him and he for me. But I doubt that most of the same gameplay. But I tried "ambushes" alone. And when 2-3 champions come out, it becomes hard. If you do not use the imperfections of game.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, TheZvir said:

And at that moment, the moment will come that they give you more options for actions, ranging from crowd control to the maneuver system. In most cases, you have the ability to pull out a difficult boss with different mechanics, so to say "I did it on the tips of my nails"

 

It’s just that when you don’t have variability, questions arise that something that already exists does not work as efficiently as you want.  I am a supporter of the fact that any changes and expansions are the path to evolution.  Stagnation only leads to degradation. 

I think you're commenting on combat as a whole vs healing, and that's fair to say combat in wurm is "whack it until its dead" which is boring. 

 

1 hour ago, TheZvir said:

Yeah. And the pet system has also been in the game for years, and the bow has not changed much. Does that make these aspects good?  =))

Again, I think you're missing my point, this system has been put in and balanced, and has operated for four years. Wurm hole has died and is now demanding it be changed. Its not a flawed system, its one that has inconvenienced wurm hole and the response is to demand change. 

 

1 hour ago, TheZvir said:

Of which LT, ED, and healing spells are in the same resist pool, and you can just get to the point where they don't work at the same time. And cotton in battle to use this for yourself. If you could throw a trap or distract with a pet, or somehow divert attention from yourself and wrap one or two wounds. That would be interesting

Sure, but in this instance it was "run to a safe place and get healing". There's a point where you need to be able to look after yourself, and you need to accept you're not an invincible god that can wade through all combat. 

 

Rift combat was reworked to counter a lot of the common complaints in how boring wurm combat is, and most of the complaints people have about it is that its annoying because its not as straight forward lol

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1 hour ago, Archaed said:

I think you're commenting on combat as a whole vs healing, and that's fair to say combat in wurm is "whack it until its dead" which is boring. 

You are absolutely right.  It's just that I, with DnD, tend to consider the concept of "healing" as a whole process of not taking damage. I do not support simply changing what is already working by simply flipping a switch.

 

1 hour ago, Archaed said:

Again, I think you're missing my point, this system has been put in and balanced, and has operated for four years. Wurm hole has died and is now demanding it be changed. Its not a flawed system, its one that has inconvenienced wurm hole and the response is to demand change. 

Yet again. I agree. Perhaps you misunderstood me or my poor English is to blame. 

 

I will repeat myself again. The expression "Bring back healing in PvE" requires more thought. I do NOT support a simple solution to reduce or remove the debuff.

 

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3 hours ago, TheZvir said:

I will repeat myself again. The expression "Bring back healing in PvE" requires more thought. I do NOT support a simple solution to reduce or remove the debuff.

 

Healing in PvE is very much alive and fine, Life transfer works as you go hunting and fighting, and in 99% of cases you'll be fine. 

 

the issue arises in mass casting of healing spells in situations where one is in over their head.  (think of it in DnD terms like taking more damage than potions can heal, you don't get to just spam potions and keep going, there's a very big sign of "you're in over your head") The request here is to remove any sign of that and eliminate all challenge of a fight by simply being able to have enough priests to counter any damage at all. 

 

Healing is fine, as someone in leather you can still happily play and not die in 99% of scenarios, in that 1% where you hit the healing cap, you're in over your head and need to slow down. 

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If you are spamming 50 LOF per rift you are overdoing it and causing the debuff.  You don't want to spam heals as soon as they are available scan the crowd and if a few are 75% or less then aoe heal so that you are not building up the debuff and basically wasting favor when heals are not really needed.

   I have done rifts without any healers and even as few as 2-3 ( well skilled and equipped  )  people.   

So while it is great to have healers and makes it much easier it can be done without them if you are aware of your surroundings and limitations.

As far as changes I would support a quicker single person heal to save a dying player or to keep the tank in the fight and I don't think that would break PVP.

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On 10/28/2022 at 3:18 AM, Archaed said:

Healing in PvE is very much alive and fine, Life transfer works as you go hunting and fighting, and in 99% of cases you'll be fine. 

 

the issue arises in mass casting of healing spells in situations where one is in over their head.  (think of it in DnD terms like taking more damage than potions can heal, you don't get to just spam potions and keep going, there's a very big sign of "you're in over your head") The request here is to remove any sign of that and eliminate all challenge of a fight by simply being able to have enough priests to counter any damage at all. 

 

Healing is fine, as someone in leather you can still happily play and not die in 99% of scenarios, in that 1% where you hit the healing cap, you're in over your head and need to slow down. 

 

You do have a good point that generally healing works.  Yes, the title of the post probably comes from years of being flooded with click bait news titles and may be a bit extreme.  But, I liked the way healing was before the debuff.  I know many others do as well.  Where the debuff goes horribly wrong in a prolonged battle like a rift.

 

So if we keep everything as is, my new goal in rifts will be to stop fighting and just bring Fo priests to spam heal spells for the points, or if I get tired of trading cordage for rift points, I'll rapid target all the mobs, but just run around and avoid any direct confrontation.

 

I know how to game the game, but it feels a lot less helpful to everyone else there.  Personally I'd like my fighter, which is in low 70s FS and has 70ql armor, to add value to the others there.  I'd like to earn my points.

 

As to MMOs with cooldowns, yeah, they have them.  But I can't think of any cooldowns like our healing debuff that would put players on the sidelines for 10 minutes during the thick of a "world boss" battle.

 

I personally don't agree with the "in over your head" flag you are waving.  It is easy to step back when you have 10% damage or 50%, but I personally like trying to push to the last few seconds of life before I run from a battle.  I know it puts hard earned skills at risk ad it is a risk I am willing to take, but then I get blindsided by a complete heal debuff.  I'd never realized the extent of how far that debuff would go.  Which when you think about it, means that it obviously wan't impacting me much when out hunting for FS.

 

So maybe this counter proposal:  Put a cap on the amount of debuff in PvE?  Set a limit for 50% penalty.

 

Healing salves and cotton?  That is what you have for solo play when you don't want to invest in a Fo priest or LT weapons.  I put int he investment for both and want to receive those benefits.

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