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nicedreams

Remove all skill loss from death in PvP. Create a deduff instead.

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Having to get geared and maintain getting gear in PvP is enough of a penalty instead of losing skill (even if fight skill) you have to spend hours on later just to PvP at your best again.  This game is tedious enough as it is.  Should create some kind of debuff where if you die to many times within a time period, you can't attack targets anymore.  Debuff so people aren't dying too much in a short period just running into fights being stupid.

 

Spending 4+ hours or even days to imp a full set of gear, weapons, horse gear, other tools for roaming, wait for others to help enchant/imp stuff you can't is enough of a burden I think.  Encourage more PvP.

Edited by nicedreams
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Huge +1. Loosing fight skill is the main reason i dont engage in it. But if it would be without skill loss i would live to roam around in spare gear and have some fun

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I am not against it. But, to be honest, full loot and butchering of affinities are more of an obstacle than skill loss. And those are holy cows in Wurm PvP.

 

That said, I played MMOs where neither full loot nor PvP death losses were implemented. Anyway, the unpopularity of PvP among PvE players existed there as well.

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7 hours ago, Ekcin said:

I am not against it. But, to be honest, full loot and butchering of affinities are more of an obstacle than skill loss. And those are holy cows in Wurm PvP.

 

That said, I played MMOs where neither full loot nor PvP death losses were implemented. Anyway, the unpopularity of PvP among PvE players existed there as well.

Well full loot is something that you can control the risk, you can either go in drake and risk less to die but more to loose, or go in plate risk more of dying but cost of dying isn't that expensive anymore, and ofc there is the resurections stone  that gives another layer of protection on gear... Skills and affinities are very expensive to lose on other hand you have no say in managing risk...
People from pvp can say whatever they want but no way i'm gonna risk 0.25 loss in FS that i need months on pve to recover(crafting new plate is nothing compared to that) over one excursion to chaos, and no restoring it by killing someone on pvp isn't really realistic way of doing that for someone who doesn't play regulary on Chaos

Edited by kochinac
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This is well said.

 

 +1

 

The amount of time it takes to regain skill after a death discourages folks from engaging in pvp.

 

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I still doubt. It took me one day to recover FS after my last death (PvE and stupidity as always :) ). Ok my FS was slightly under 97 then, certainly harder when in the 99s. But still I think that affinities are the most abhorrent. It is the main reason why I would never go to Chaos. Epic, ok when I find the time. FS would not be the issue.

 

Still I doubt that removal even of affi lootability would attract many. But as said, I am not against.

Edited by Ekcin

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Does that also suggest the boosted FS gains from killing someone in PvP is reduced as well? 

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On 10/24/2022 at 7:47 AM, Ekcin said:

I am not against it. But, to be honest, full loot and butchering of affinities are more of an obstacle than skill loss. And those are holy cows in Wurm PvP.

 

That said, I played MMOs where neither full loot nor PvP death losses were implemented. Anyway, the unpopularity of PvP among PvE players existed there as well.

 

According to the wiki - When you die fighting another player (also known as PvP death) you will lose 0.25 points from the main fighting skill, 0.01 body, and 0.01 body strength.

So fairly minimal skill loss really, I am not sure if there is a functional reason for that skill loss, for the most part I wouldn't be too bothered either way on that. Removing it wouldn't make me join PvP, but its existence doesn't stop me either.

 

Full loot on death - As a SFI player, this would just stop me taking anything shiny to Chaos. The NFI equivalent is that it doesn't matter as items don't transfer over anyway. Although having some form of PvP that doesn't lose items might be nice, eg. Allow sparring between groups of players on PvE servers. I want to build a Colosseum. It would be a nice feature to have, perhaps even player constructed "Battlegrounds". But this isn't really what people mean when they talk about Wurm PvP.

 

Affinity loss - This is pretty much the reason I will not even consider trying to go to Chaos. There is no chance I am going to risk losing my Mind Logic affinity and I don't really want to make a new account just to try PvP.

 

If it was only item loss on death, I would probably build myself a rowboat to go over and give it a go at some point. The travel time to get there when compared to NFI being able to teleport over is also a bit of a disincentive, if I could go over faster then I would likely be more willing to go over for a weekend for example.

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5 hours ago, Korhaka said:

So fairly minimal skill loss really, I am not sure if there is a functional reason for that skill loss, for the most part I wouldn't be too bothered either way on that. Removing it wouldn't make me join PvP, but its existence doesn't stop me either.

 

Under 90 FS, losing 0.25 doesn't sting as much. Try to get to 95 fs, die once and spend an entire month to regain the lost FS. And that's assuming you die only once. Die twice? Double the recovery timer. Die 3 times? Do the math. 

 

Losing skills, affinities, gear is actually a huge combined loss in pvp and it's the main reason people avoid it. Personally I think it's time for the "wurm hardcore pvp experiment" to end since it clearly has enough data 10 years later to show the pvp population isn't even 5% of the wurm population these days. There are simply too many things to lose and too little to gain when we tabulate the pros and cons. 

 

I'd rather devs experiment with a no FS loss, no affinity loss, no gear loss for pvp for a year and see how it pans out. It''s not like it's gonna kill epic or chaos which have ridiculously low number of players. 

 

Put debuffs instead as OP suggested. 

Edited by elentari
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1 hour ago, elentari said:

Under 90 FS, losing 0.25 doesn't sting as much. Try to get to 95 fs, die once and spend an entire month to regain the lost FS. And that's assuming you die only once. Die twice? Double the recovery timer. Die 3 times? Do the math. 

 

Losing skills, affinities, gear is actually a huge combined loss in pvp and it's the main reason people avoid it. Personally I think it's time for the "wurm hardcore pvp experiment" to end since it clearly has enough data 10 years later to show the pvp population isn't even 5% of the wurm population these days. There are simply too many things to lose and too little to gain when we tabulate the pros and cons. 

 

I'd rather devs experiment with a no FS loss, no affinity loss, no gear loss for pvp for a year and see how it pans out. It''s not like it's gonna kill epic or chaos which have ridiculously low number of players. 

 

Put debuffs instead as OP suggested. 

might wanna kill something a bit stronger then a horse.. really only sucks past 99.99+

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This is all very well written. If there was no skill loss on PvP I might actually participate in PvP more. Clearly what the devs are doing with PvP right now isnt working. Lets experiment a bit?

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Something to point out that people who have never tried pvp have to realize

Wurm pvp is group vs group you are not just going to make a rowboat and sail over and try it out you go onto the forums read 1 of the recruitment topics and try to join those groups and if successful play with them and go out with them and get gear replaced as part of you dying in battle in group based combat or later on if you roam around be prepared to have spare gear sets.

The only point I would agree with is an affinity change so that they are not transferred on death but no skill loss or no gear loss is just a big no there has to be a punishment for it.

Fight skill really does not take you months to get that 0.25 back even at 90+
The game currently already has a meditation path that prevents everything but fight skill loss so if you really want to try out pvp and not loose skills go path of knowledge, if you want to be tankier and most likely survive if lucky then go path of insanity.

There has to be a risk as if there is no risk of loss(besides easy to replace gear) then people just wont care as much about dying and that already is an issue as it is now at times.


So

1. Gear is not an issue in the larger groups that kingdoms are made up out of
2. The few skill losses you get on death are really not that big of an issue
3. Full loot is what makes it more fun as if your enemy is confident they will run around with drake and supreme items on them as they havent died in a while and suddenly rip
4. Affinity transfer should be disabled and should have years ago as there have been way to many ways to abuse it to stack affinities over the years and even now still as well but even outside of the abuse its reward isnt that much to be honest.
5. A temp buff just means "Ima set on deed/freedom until its gone" mentality will be a thing.

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[15:59:02] Fighting increased by 0.2894 to 99.6145

 

thats what a single pvp kill looks like at 99+, you get more than the enemy loses until you hit 99.99, if you're 90 youd get 0.5+ fs. if anything the system is way too generous with how much fight skill you get, youll just naturally climb to 95fs if you pvp in a group and dont suicide randomly. if they removed losing fs on death theyd remove the massive gains on kill and ironically thatd just make it way harder for newer players to get pvp ready if its taking you a month to get 0.25fs back

 

affinities sure remove them from kills and add them to hota/depot/treasure chests if people care about em that much, but caring about fs is just a mindset issue

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I have no concern with item loss - although I did mention increased options for group sparring/duels because it certainly wouldn't hurt to give people the option for consensual PvP with no risk of loss for those who want it.

 

Also have since heard that affinities are separate on Defiance to the other NFI servers, that is also something I would be fine with and as far as I can tell I would absolutely throw my main character into it. At least to give it a go. However, I can't as I am an SFI player and I don't want to start over.

 

Skill loss I am moderately indifferent on as the loss is fairly low but perhaps it is a bigger problem for people at very high FS.

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Huge +1. People refuse to take 1v1s based on not losing fighting skill. It's sad. Actually one of the reasons I stopped pvping recently, I got tired of being penalized for adding content to the game. that -.25 FS is massive at higher levels.

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