Sign in to follow this  
christopher

new rifts

Recommended Posts

How I envy you all. I can't fully play right now T_T. From my memory, I can say that there was nothing complicated in the rifts. Just a coton in more boxes and healers with stocks of things to donate more.   Everything came down to routine. I arrived. Turned off the sound. Beat dummies for 2 hours. Periodically leaving to bandage.  

 

The last time, purely for myself, I prepared stones and stored up "mana" in order to put a wall of fire there, to call on worgs.  Well  and , hentai tentacles to call(Thanks to the great goddess of the seas) . All this was essentially absolutely useless and simply cosmetically satisfied my eyes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't attend rifts that are during bad hours for me, since they take a long time and you can't control how long you spend on them if you want to be there until its conclusion. For me the shorter rifts have meant that I can partake even if it's not necessarily taking place during the best time of day. And from what I've noticed the attendance at any given rift depends largely on how many people are online during whatever hour it takes place.

 

Most people I know only participate in rifts because it is a Journal requirement, and many skip them despite that. They're noisy, sometimes very crowded, you're supposed to know what to do and how to survive. The rifts are generally considered to be a stressful experience - Especially when experienced rifters take it upon themselves to yell and scream at rift newbies for not reading their mind regarding whether or not to sacrifice hearts, or what creature to target and when. A lot of people assume the role of King at rifts and very few the role of actual Leader. That obviously doesn't apply to all rifts and all players, and I've found a lot of regular rifters that are really nice and friendly and most of all helpful. Those aren't the ones a rift newbie remembers though - They remember the guy who yelled at them for "stealing a kill" or "saccing a heart wrong", or the guy whining loudly because no one else wants to fight the same bad boy they want to take on.

 

The rifts can be quite fun with the right people, and I've met a lot of players who I definitely like running into when I get to a rift site. But if the rift spawns in an area that's downright deadly to ride in, with hostile terrain and structures blocking the paths, I get my 20 points and ride off into the sunset.

 

If you've noticed a lower attendance lately I have very little reason to believe that it's because of the shortened length of the rifts.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Finnn said:

what's the plan for high dps vs normal w/o priest shenanigans and priest CR buff

 

If you're talking about the mag CR buff, it basically doesn't exist in PvE, where a vast majority of priests are Vynora. Other casts can be placed on anyone. However, worrying about balance of someone bringing a priest is akin to worrying about someone bringing better equipment than others which is unavoidable. It's supposed to reward performance and there is no way to do that without some performing better than others. Kill participation points will still exist to share points. In the hours of combat you will have plenty of time to gather points.

 

There are however unannounced features that will provide some field leveling on that front.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I go back and forth about how much I like the idea of rewarding damage dealt.  One of the nice things about PvE is you can use any weapon you want.  If you're not bothered that it takes a few extra minutes to kill that troll, then use that weapon that looks cool.  So  I'm not sure rewarding players in PvE for using 'meta' weapons is the best idea. However I really like the idea of rewarding players based on how much they contributed.  I mean, higher skill and better gear SHOULD matter.

 

So I don't know how useful my input is, but there it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, jaytoo said:

 

If you're talking about the mag CR buff, it basically doesn't exist in PvE, where a vast majority of priests are Vynora. Other casts can be placed on anyone. However, worrying about balance of someone bringing a priest is akin to worrying about someone bringing better equipment than others which is unavoidable. It's supposed to reward performance and there is no way to do that without some performing better than others. Kill participation points will still exist to share points. In the hours of combat you will have plenty of time to gather points.

 

There are however unannounced features that will provide some field leveling on that front.

not at all

just not everybody brings an alt to get buffs on it or plays main/alt priest to utilize spell bonuses and cr boost, while they are obviously putting them at a way better place compared to others

 

I guess it's it's hard to explain what I'm trying to say... in simpler words...

There either is a balance between dps output, survivability, fighting capabilities between players as priests being it themselves playing such or having alts to get buffs or not using any of these settings, or there should be some way to balance this.

 

I've asked before about better balance for nonpriests in combat, there's no special move, power, nor anything really to compare vs a priest and it's spell set when it comes to healing and dps buffs, non-priests are just behind.

 

Here we talk about performance and dps output, where it clearly touches this problem.

Edited by Finnn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just finished the latest rift - was a good fight. I am not sure whether it was already under the new, changed scheme.

 

But the attribution of rewards remains unclear to me. I learnt that the base MM reward is ql 80 for 60 participation points. I got a ql 85.61 ada lump 0.33kg with 87 points, and cannot complain (rank 12/18).

What I fail to understand, is that a player with 125 points (rank 3/18) got a o.35kg glimmer lump ql 87.38. Seems odd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing has been released other than shortening rifts to 3 waves, these are just suggestion discussions.

 

Your placement vs other players doesn't matter. 60 points gets you 80ql + some random. Additional points beyond 60 net you some more base ql maxing that benefit at 240 points.

 

You won't start seeing 90ql lumps until around 150 points or so. In the newer system I do believe 150 will be more achievable by higher level players.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, Jaytoo. That said, I had 150+ points more than once before the shortening. This rift, only 2 of 18 players had it. Before, well  the upper half had it.

Edited by Ekcin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do understand the frustration, at this particular stage It's not designed to be the same as it was before. Total points possible varies wildly based on how many players show up so it's really difficult to judge. That said yeah we reduced spawns by 40% by removing wave 4 and in return gave a 20 point bounty on the war master. I don't expect players to get the same reward with half the effort but we did bump it up a bit in compensation.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something like this might help:

  • Rift Beast = 1 point
  • Rift Jackal / Caster / Summoner = 2 points
  • Rift Ogre [Mage] = 3 points
  • Warmaster = 20 points

It's pretty simple, and it doesn't attempt to be perfect, but it adds a little incentive to challenge the tougher opponents out there while allowing newbies a chance to earn rewards.

 

Also, the point value of the enemies is quite independent of the eligibility criteria (whether you need to target / hit / damage / kill an enemy to get the reward)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree (proposed that too, already). In addition, +1 for champ mobs.

But it seems to me, that the "point pool" for damage dealt goes into the same direction.

Edited by Ekcin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would double the value for champions, I think.

 

I agree that awarding points for damage done will help reward players with better skill/gear but I'm not sure that it would encourage them to tackle the bigger enemies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we have to reduce the participation points per creature if we give any damage points so rift beasts would look like .25, .5 for medium and 1 for large enemies. But damage points would scale to match.

 

Solo killing a rift beast outright would net you roughly 4.25 points. This is something lower level players could presumably do, assuming they have ever swung a sword before that moment. Today they get 1 for being present. If we ignore tagging, as newbies don't know how to do that, I think they see roughly the same or more points.

 

Rewarding skilled players for killing larges is attainable by giving them more damage points. Ogres are in the area of 15, casters and summoners are in the area of 7.5. Those figures are based on how many players can attack one at the same time. That should maintain about the same amount of points as they give today, just scaled more to the damage dealers.

 

note that ogres give the same participation points as they give today, this would just be a flat buff to slaying them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not so sure I like the idea of points based on damage with reduced points for participation... I just imagine a player malding about somebody "KSing" him because others didn't let him take 25 minutes to solo an ogre. People already are hissy about "tagging" (I thought you had to stay fighting something 'til it died to get rewarded, but I guess just targeting without even hitting is enough?) which doesn't seem to take much of anything away from anybody else, so I think that mindset just gets worse in a system where others can seemingly directly "take away" from you.

 

Unless there is somehow a way to clearly drill it into people's minds that, yes, the points are scaled to be similar to how many points would've been given in the old system, and no, the newbies swinging and tickling the enemy are not leeching all your points... I feel like lots of people would get angy about it. 

 

Maybe that's just pessimistic though...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am very skeptical about any "and the newbies" argument. It is - conciously or not - practically always a strawman. New players will adapt to any system, it is the old ones who moan and resist.

 

Generally, a new player is not worse off, assuming she is or was not frantically "tagging", which I consider a stupid and abusive conduct anyway. She will get less by just engaging a foe, but quite something by whacking it. I am not sure whether it is so much less. Btw what is  "KSing"? Strange jargon, don't know it.

 

A new player will have a minimum of 20 points  whacking the WM once (in a successful fight), far enough to get "decent" participation, enough for the rift to count in the 100 rifts goal. Ok, would have to learn to use 2h weapons against ogres to make damage. Learning how to deal damage while surviving is not wrong, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

I am very skeptical about any "and the newbies" argument. It is - conciously or not - practically always a strawman. New players will adapt to any system, it is the old ones who moan and resist.

 

Generally, a new player is not worse off, assuming she is or was not frantically "tagging", which I consider a stupid and abusive conduct anyway. She will get less by just engaging a foe, but quite something by whacking it. I am not sure whether it is so much less. Btw what is  "KSing"? Strange jargon, don't know it.

 

A new player will have a minimum of 20 points  whacking the WM once (in a successful fight), far enough to get "decent" participation, enough for the rift to count in the 100 rifts goal. Ok, would have to learn to use 2h weapons against ogres to make damage. Learning how to deal damage while surviving is not wrong, after all.

 

If you're referring to my comment you ought to re-read it again. I'm not defending for "and the newbies", I'm saying it's the old farts who will likely moan and complain because they didn't comprehend the proposed new system's changes properly. They already complain about something which, while it's weird, seems harmless to everybody else's points and rewards ("tagging"). My thought is that a system where we're told "you would get 15 points if you solo an ogre" and less than 15 points if you shared the kill would probably make them complain more about supposed "KSing", even though the changes and numbers would be theoretically be balanced to match the old system and benefit the damage dealers. :) 

 

Edit: KSing

Edited by Lovelie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lovelie said:

I'm saying it's the old farts who will likely moan and complain because they didn't comprehend the proposed new system's changes properly

I don't speak for all of the devs but it's my opinion that lack of understanding of the system is just a constant reality that we shouldn't base changes on. We can try to mitigate it as much as possible, we can write it on the wiki, we can put it in the post and patch notes. But it will always exist. Luckily I can illustrate my point by bringing an example specific to this situation. In the past, people would be mad if players burned hearts to skip the wave end before the warmaster was killed. They believed rewards were better or whatever tale they had been told by someone else or just by assuming that the "boss" gave rewards as that is a natural conclusion. However he had no function beyond guarding the rift alter, just an interesting fight at the end. He rewarded 1 point for being killed, the same as every other rift mob. I wouldn't call it good design, but that's how it worked. They were upset because players went against their understanding of the situation. Perhaps that is the fault of the dev team by not educating enough or the wiki content creators etc. or the fault of the player for not reading or asking. But the situation will always exist so we try to educate but it's impossible to completely avoid and thus can't base changes on it.

To your point however, we considered giving kill shots (last hits) a point value as a measure to encourage players to spread out during the rift.  it was quickly tossed due to it encouraging toxic behavior. It should be obvious that in reality most players will not be able to solo anything at a rift. Players will flow around to all the enemies, engaging when healed up and disengaging when hurt etc. Thus yeah you get points for the damage you deal at the moment you deal it, you get participation points for the things you helped kill even if your contribution was minimal when that thing dies. There is no cheating someone out of anything when 10 players are just moving from enemy to enemy quickly dispatching stuff. If you get a hit you get some extra points and you move to the next enemy.

  • Like 1
  • Cat 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, jaytoo said:

I don't speak for all of the devs but it's my opinion that lack of understanding of the system is just a constant reality that we shouldn't base changes on. We can try to mitigate it as much as possible, we can write it on the wiki, we can put it in the post and patch notes. But it will always exist. Luckily I can illustrate my point by bringing an example specific to this situation. In the past, people would be mad if players burned hearts to skip the wave end before the warmaster was killed. They believed rewards were better or whatever tale they had been told by someone else or just by assuming that the "boss" gave rewards as that is a natural conclusion. However he had no function beyond guarding the rift alter, just an interesting fight at the end. He rewarded 1 point for being killed, the same as every other rift mob. I wouldn't call it good design, but that's how it worked. They were upset because players went against their understanding of the situation. Perhaps that is the fault of the dev team by not educating enough or the wiki content creators etc. or the fault of the player for not reading or asking. But the situation will always exist so we try to educate but it's impossible to completely avoid and thus can't base changes on it.

To your point however, we considered giving kill shots (last hits) a point value as a measure to encourage players to spread out during the rift.  it was quickly tossed due to it encouraging toxic behavior. It should be obvious that in reality most players will not be able to solo anything at a rift. Players will flow around to all the enemies, engaging when healed up and disengaging when hurt etc. Thus yeah you get points for the damage you deal at the moment you deal it, you get participation points for the things you helped kill even if your contribution was minimal when that thing dies. There is no cheating someone out of anything when 10 players are just moving from enemy to enemy quickly dispatching stuff. If you get a hit you get some extra points and you move to the next enemy.

 

I guess I should clarify that I meant for emphasis to be on this part:

 

"Unless there is somehow a way to clearly drill it into people's minds [that a new damage-based system is balanced and fair], I feel like lots of people would get angy about it. "

 

So my stance is being wary of how to present new systems that would either potentially or very well likely cause new toxic behaviors.

And if such a change is implemented then hopefully it's as drilled into people's minds as possible that it'd be a buff not a nerf overall, from how you've described so far.

And true, as you basically mentioned, you can lead a horse to water or maybe even try to shove its face in but can't force it to drink. ;) I just hope if there's any change like this, there would be given extra care to maybe illustrate examples and hopefully mitigate situations where, say, people would cry foul of KSing or disdain for teamwork or the like. As much care as possible, even if it doesn't 100% get through to everyone, trying to get close to that...

 

It seems even when I tried to explain myself clearly it doesn't always come out or read as I intended. :) My bad.

Edited by Lovelie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion one should not over-contemplate rift gains. I found it always a bit silly when people got angry and struggled ober "leaderbords". I appreciate the idea of the new mechanic, and think it is able to serve everyone. The balance between duration, number of mobs and participants, and achievable participation points should be evaluated and most probably needs to be adjusted a few times. I shall observe, measure, and report results, and my opinion about. In my opinion, the fun with a social combat event should prevail.

 

Btw., conflicts over premature rift closure break and broke out only, but then frequently, when people shut down the rift fight without even announcing in local, much less asking for the opinion of the other fighters. I often experienced that people asked for closing due fatigue of long fight, insufficient dmg for WM, or even personal reasons in addition (e.g. "need to go to bed/school/work"), and don't recall a single time that it was opposed. WM before the recent change was just an interesting battle (including the turrets) spawning not few additional mobs, but in the end everyone knew the WM was just another wabbit only taller. Before the changes with Jackal the WM even was dumb and not overly strong, only much hp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking that the easiest approach to balancing is probably to add up raw contribution points, and then feed them through a mathematical / logical function to convert them to actual rift points. That allows you to scale the return value, set min and max, and so on, all in one place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if healing gets priests big points at rifts, then why doesnt cotton/ healing potions/salve use as well give u points at rifts 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simple. Priest participation is not for free. Spamming LoF over a whole rift combat costs well 2000-3000 favor, or more. Before the new rifts, it was well double, or 3 times that. Priests who summon to rifts expend other hundreds of favor. Also, at least my priestess frequently casts heal or cure spells onto badly hit participants, humid drizzle to keep mounts healthy (and cure diseased participants), dispel of foe AoEs, enchants the mailbox pre fight, all activities appreciated but not giving any (or at least very few) participation points. And especially priest alts often arrive with low or very low FS running additional risks.

 

I fail to see a point in envy, or demanding further nerfs against priests. Granted I am not neutral about the issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about quick recharge for favor within the rift zone for priest accounts?

- Add debuff-effect on priests(reset and reapply every time you leave the rift zone or timer runs out and you're in the rift zone) making it impossible for you to cast any spells besides combat related non item-enchants(abuse), including mailbox or w/e no item enchants - only heals and combat related spells; nerf or remove skillgain since it's basically fun time to pop whatever whenever with free favor, but nerf to points so you don't just passively run "afk" from combat priest and pop heal from the corner to be top 1-2-3 score players(this is law currently for fo priests in rifts.. and was always broken, don't think that ever changed)

- some spell/buffs probably need additional balance, depending on favor regen and stats you can get or linking and regens.. making some insanely fun/op/abusive combinations..

 

my point - keep it:

- fun

- engaging

- balanced

for everybody 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i didnt want to change any priest stuff, just enhance the use of the other stuff so its not all deleted eventually or made redundant, if we take everything out and put nothing back in the game well you make it like the frogs , 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dps isn’t the solution in the formula for distributing points. This would only negate the needed for tanks. Take WM AOE as an example: The WM tags one person. That person just move around keeping the AOE off the rest of the players.

This person participated in the fight and played a key roll in killing the WM, but did no dps. Why should that person not be rewarded.  This is just one of many examples why dps should not be used as a base line for points reward system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this