christopher

new rifts

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  I think the new rifts are boring as , why the change to a dull 1 hr rift , the people who dont do them i suspect , cant we have a role reverse to 6 yrs ago when u didnt no if u would come out alive there was uses for all the healing stuff and cotton , todays rift i barely used any , its all heal spells now . the rift creatures used to chase u , they seemed to want to kill you , now its just like killing a crab or something , all you have kept is the warmaster hard bit but even he doesnt go after anyone any more , its lost its raise hell effects ,  think i died 20 times over the years, now noone does , this was wurms action part and you have toned it to far down. we used to pull the creatures with arrows thats gone what happened ,just an opinion cheers

Edited by christopher
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Personally I really like the new rifts. 

The old ones were enjoyable for the first couple of hours. The new ones are fun from beginning to end.

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The old ones were way to long. Shorter rifts are a great change. Unless they completely gut and replace the combat system in Wurm with something better, a 2+ hour combat affair will always be too miserable for most players.

As for all the healing spells...It's the best (and almost only) way for priests to get points. I doubt that's going anywhere anytime soon. I guess you could fight on the outskirts alone and use cotton on yourself if you really wanted more of a challenge and to avoid all the  AOE healing.

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7 hours ago, Sankara said:

Make`em harder not easier!

- I just want rift materials usually.. whole other fight is pointless gear durability, high chance to lose skill by rng shenanigans(gank by many creatures attacking you at once, karma spall spam on you, and such)

- only source for rift points to buy metalic liquid.. quite expensive purchase if you aren't fo priest, 

- loot is old and boring

 

- if anything, I'd like to see better ways to get more rift materials, higher ql, as high skill ensures nothing, the rng ql nodes is nerfing abilities a lot(havent tried if that applies for imbued tools);

- new loot and better ways to get bigger chunk of points should be something to see in the future

- as to seeing more creatures - meh, not interested - they have awful chance to hit and very low skill gain 

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Well I like it this way. 3 hours is just boring as hell, I saw many times people at the rift saccing the hearts when the warmaster was still on just to get it over with

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17 minutes ago, Melissablueflame said:

people at the rift saccing the hearts when the warmaster was still on just to get it over with

Yeah, I've done that, because after 2-3 hours, and everyone scattered around, some people healing, some afk, there was no progress being made on the WM and really, I wanted to just be done. If they've shortened the rift, good. Between the PITA to get there and back, then 2-3 hrs of the rift, it's a full day for really paltry rewards.

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yep so now 45 min we done u still dont kill the wm ,

Edited by christopher

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Love the shorter rifts, it is great not ending up with fatigue headaches at the end of them!

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I don't think added length of time really does anything to add any excitement to a rift but a better point system and new drops/rewards likely would. I liked the idea I saw on another thread of the harder mobs rating higher points. It's been a long standing formula that's worked in countless other games and the Warmaster of course being worth the most would make players less inclined to sac it away. The whole hit as many mobs as possible and then run to a safe pen is a bit lame to me. A point system based on actual damage dealt and mobs killed over a hey I scratched more than you killed so I get the most points would be soo much better.

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I can confirm that the new rifts are less stressful and exhausting. Also I would advocate extending higher participation points to harder mobs other than the WM, in the hierarchy ogre, ogre mage, caster, summoner, jackal, beast. Additional points to be given for champion mobs of any kind.

 

The lessened amount of points due to shorter rifts still remains a problem, maybe adequately addressed by extended points as above, maybe the quality of rewards needs to be adjusted additionally. At the moment, it is hard for a non priest participant to get moon metals at or above ql 90. That is particularly bad for those with moon metal equipment, e.g. the cutlass from treasure hunting. With ql of MM from marks shop nerfed (rightly in my opinion) acquisition of high ql MM in PvE is nearly gone. Here some balancing is due, unless the devs intended to nerf rift rewards which I fail to see.

Edited by Ekcin
typo
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Made them shorter and it was generally liked. Not everyone will like any change. High player count rifts used to last for 8+ hours, which can be epic for the hard core gamer but we shouldn't lean into it.

 

Point distribution rework with a focus on player effectiveness rather than tagging, among other changes, are being considered.

 

I'm reading these suggestions but keep your expectations tempered. I prefer low complexity reconfigurations of existing assets rather than create new to keep development cycle times lower. Suggestions in line with that are more likely to be considered.

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2hrs rift was about average ,never seen a 8 hr , except when noone shows up for a while prob , does anyone remember the old day rifts cmon they was fun as , i cant believe u toned it this far down, my count barely made the grade i got a crappy as 50 qual mm from memory , only the healers are smiling . 

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If you get 60 points your floor for the ql of your lump is 80ql. Being involved in the war master kill nets you 20 points.

 

Are you talking about very low attendance rifts?

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I can say that the participation points significantly dropped since the new rifts. Before, I constantly scored significantly above 100, last rift 72 or so, the one before 89. And I certainly did not fight less, and btw. do not practice "tagging" which I find silly. Accordingly, the MM ql dropped, still over 80, yes.

 

As to 8hr rifts, I never experienced that. My longest ones were 6 - lt 7 hrs, when we fought with teams of 2 or 3. That applied to all rifts, pre Jackal and later. Average was 2-3hrs depending on participation, minimum around 1.30hrs.

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problem with balancing for participation is...

1. tanks - sponge damage... anybody can hold a shield and do nothing, literally nothing

2. CR boost priests obviously have bigger advantage.. and spells raising chance to hit.. so anything boosted toward hits and damage will directly impact and turn them into a meta gg ez pz lulzors

3. and there's the casual - " I have no ***** idea what I'm doing, but I killed 25 doggies and 3 summoners on my own, SUP?? This is fun! "

 

idk if there are other groups.. maybe casual old FO overachieving top scores with ease, if you need more points - leave the team to take damage longer and there you have it.. cast a heal and everybody's happy, score board favors it too.. only "problem" there is .. multiple FO fighting over points

 

since rift creation only way to chase people on top score was tagging, but that was denied to work from start.. even if it aways worked since..

 

issue with balance is.. dps/tanking will directly still nerf most players and put few on top and that wont change

 

what's left is... creature dies.. and only people being rewarded to be specific action points gained in past x-xx seconds within x-xx meters from the dead creature, while fo still remains broken with ez pz lul points farm casting spells

 

with lack of better dps/etc metric.. or balancing we're down to min-maxing experience and rewards based on pure activity(being anything counting as valuable in a fight and close to death of a creature) instead of direct dps/heal score which are bound to directly penalize most players

--edit

oh u had no time and wanted tl;dr.. bolded for you

Edited by Finnn

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My idea would be

 

- leave priests as they are. They have an advantage, but on heavy cost in preparation such as providing enough favor. Driving priests away would also cripple participation (no summons)

- for fighters, a simple attribution of points: Only last hit at an opponent dying later counts for participation, and that no matter where the fighter is at death of mob

 

That would kill "tagging", only the creature you hit (or missed, like with uniques) counts. And if someone retreats from the battle, id further away than 4 tiles, even to the safe camp, so what, that would as well settle the thing with archery. Sometimes it happens to me that I fight an ogre til he and me are nearly dead, then ofc run back to heal up. In the meantime others finish the ogre, tough luck. Same if players are called to lunch by mom/gf-bf (😎), someone at the doorbell, whatever. I don't think such a system could be exploited more than the "tagging" so many are whining about.

Edited by Ekcin
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1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

My idea would be

 

- leave priests as they are. They have an advantage, but on heavy cost in preparation such as providing enough favor. Driving priests away would also cripple participation (no summons)

- for fighters, a simple attribution of points: Only last hit at an opponent dying later counts for participation, and that no matter where the fighter is at death of mob

 

That would kill "tagging", only the creature you hit (or missed, like with uniques) counts. And if someone retreats from the battle, id further away than 4 tiles, even to the safe camp, so what, that would as well settle the thing with archery. Sometimes it happens to me that I fight an ogre til he and me are nearly dead, then ofc run back to heal up. In the meantime others finish the ogre, tough luck. Same if players are called to lunch by mom/gf-bf (😎), someone at the doorbell, whatever. I don't think such a system could be exploited more than the "tagging" so many are whining about.

Extremely easy to roll that.. with CR buff and enchants to hit things before other, last slap wont solve "balance" and you'll end up hating people coming to end your 1v1 "kills" you solo something for 97% hp.. and somebody comes to steal the points and glory, way worse than tagging, there everybody gets points

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Extremely easy to roll that.. with CR buff and enchants to hit things before other, last slap wont solve "balance" and you'll end up hating people coming to end your 1v1 "kills" you solo something for 97% hp.. and somebody comes to steal the points and glory, way worse than tagging, there everybody gets points

Maybe you misunderstood. I wrote about the way points are attributed to any single player. If ten attack, they get 1 participation point each (or 20 if it is the WM). Nobody can "steal" points from others, but nobody can accumulate points by "tagging". Now, someone able to stay in the combat area, may "tag" 10 mobs, smack each one once, then get 10 points after their death.  Not that it ever bothered me, but many in the forums got crazy about.

 

Edit: As far as mobs where hit were more points are scored (so far only the WM with 20 points), the highest score would remain, so  that some lower mob hit would not spoil the result.

Edited by Ekcin
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Ekcin just means cancel your tag if you attack something new and you lose your participation point on the last thing you tagged if it's still alive. This is not a bad solution but in this instance we do want to improve the point system to reward effectiveness. Players have no reason to try to be more effective or have no reward for having high skills or nice gear. 

 

Points can be distributed based on damage done but we would leave the current system in place and nerf the points as to not exclude lower skilled players. This way high performers get more from dealing damage + participation and low performers still get some participation value. Rift mobs have a pool of damage points to be given out and once it is depleted no additional points go out. This avoids healing them or w/e other exploits. Rewarding damage will probably encourage players not to form a ball around the healers and is an overall nerf to that. Players should probably have a healing point cap to avoid infinite points from that at a 0 pop rift but it hasn't been an issue yet.

Attaching participation points to damage done isn't overly complex from a technical standpoint. 

 

Other considerations are that we have high pop servers and low pop servers. Damage points will be balanced against the usual point output of a mob. Lets say usually 10 people attack a rift beast. That means he has 10 points of output to the participants. This is a bad system if there are only 4 people who attend because they cannot get 10 points worth of points out of it. The damage points would be balanced so that for 10 people it would give 2.5 points of participation (.25 per person) and 7.5 points of damage points to whoever happens to do the damage. So we retain 10 points overall but they are distributed more to the damage dealers. With the 4 person group you see a total output of 8.5 points instead of 4. Resulting in a gain of 4.5 points in a low pop situation. The amount of rift mobs scale to the number of players, so the points available per player would scale about the same. SFI suffers from lower population as well as melody but that should not lock players out of rift rewards.

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then you just lose points and you get way less points in general, if now 70-80 seems low, wait to see 40-60 at best

 

also this helps only first in line, if you're a bit slower to reach and get in the limit per creature, you just lose points and get some charge on your irl anger and migraine for wasting your time with a derp event where you cant parcitipate and often read - it's too crowded

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@jaytoowhat's the plan for high dps vs normal w/o priest shenanigans and priest CR buff

 

priests always have huge perk in combat, that was never addressed and seems like it's about to be adopted at meta for rifts and transferred from pvp into pve event, if all rounds toward dps and damage dealing 

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Thanks Jaytoo for the information, I am looking forward how that works out in rift reality. I shall not change my playstyle which never aimed at minmax of rift points. Rather, I concentrated on removing threats to the rift team like dispersing packs of dogs, concentrations of ogres, casters etc., sometimes taunting off mobs from players in danger, in short, concentrating on combat tactics, not point gains. So far, that worked fine, and I got acceptable rewards.

 

It will be interesting how the situation will be for priests. I hope that their contribution will not be nerfed, or at least not to an extent rendering their participation unattractive.

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