polarbear

Polar's 2 cents for game development

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Putting this here as I see it in a wide array of games, not just this one....

Programming is hard. No really, it is. 

I sympathize with the Wurm devs and give them my honest respect. Programming, especially in game development is hard.

 

This 2 cent rant to say. Be nice to Wurm devs. They work very hard and honestly could leave and do something else more useful with their time. So say thanks in the chat when you see them, because without their dedication and hard work: this game would not be where it is today.

Edited by polarbear
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As someone who has been working on coutless applications used for complex buisness workflows of big companies. Mostly in .net technologies, i was even a huge part of team that build TypeScript UI framework with our own binding system and what not that my company uses, so you could say big boys coding. Aye programming is hard and you can easily ###### up. What makes it hard and ######uable is that not all people(most of them actually) are not good at it, expecialy at designing whole complex systems, that you have to work with that people or even worse you must continue on base that they built. Working on legacy code that had a bunch of people that pissed in that barrel is especially prone to breaking for the silliest of reasons no one can predict.

But nevertheless it's no excuse to thrive for better and more realible code and systems.

 

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I get it development is hard and assuming a game built in before 2010 would not be competing with new games in terms of graphics and performance. Game development is hard, myself did some projects, but glitches that was there when the server started 3 years back still being there is a joke.

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9 minutes ago, FIREDRAGON said:

I get it development is hard and assuming a game built in before 2010 would not be competing with new games in terms of graphics and performance. Game development is hard, myself did some projects, but glitches that was there when the server started 3 years back still being there is a joke.

 

Now, not in a direct reply to you/this but it kinda triggered it because I have seen comments like this in a way uglier fashion plenty of times, so I will just take it as a reason to throw my 2 cents in.

 

The Dev Team changed over many times in whch some things and priorities may have gotten lost or changed around, iirc we had like 4 or 5 POs by now?

They are a very small team for the scope this game has, half or more of the team are volunteers sacrificing their free time to fix issues or make new content that they also could spend playing or doing whatever else really.

 

People need to temper their expectations, it's a thing since years and will be a thing until someone wins the lottery, pours millions into the game so more fulltime devs can be hired.

(not seeing that happen, but one can dream)

 

You have people who wish (or scream) for very different things, one camp says "meh we need more content or the game will die, only 2 major new things a year if at all is no good" then you have the "omg all these bugs are still in!" crowd and lets not forget the "the new player experience needs a total overhaul, the game can't keep people playing for more than an hour before they quit" folks.

I am sure there is more groups of people that want this or that changed, added or fixed but we all have to accept phyiscal limits, the team is not capable of witchcraft.

 

But that aside, Polar is just asking for people to be friendly to the devs and not write a-hole comments or talking down to them because coding is ohh so easy.

I am sure anyone who thinks they can do better can learn Java if they are not capable of it already and can apply to become a volunteer dev, give it a whirl and see how easy it is for real.

But don't expect tripple-A support from a small team as we have here, imho they do the best they can and I really appreciate that they keep the game going and not just that, keep making content - for niché games like Wurm this is just so rare.

 

The best we can do is check the bug forum, do you find the bug that bugs you posted there, give it a friendly bump, hopefully it gets the devs attention and is put back on the list that maybe has been started many times over with all the team member changes over the years.

(I recently did that as I was made aware of the scale pants bug and heck does it annoy me now :D - but it is by no means a gamekiller so most likely just super low on the priority list, I "think" it could be a small fix, but do I know for sure? nope, so all I can do is ask nicely.)

 

And then... honestly... I do not think that it is our business how the dev teams does what they do, they try their best to cater to the community wishes and it is really hard to please everyone, sometimes you will just have a few angry people.

But all that said, I wish people would keep it civil and not resort to angry, snarky or mean comments towards the devs, if you like the game - be nice to them, if you don't like the game and are not capable of civil communication, maybe play something else?

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Oh, and also for the people who are not from software development world, when you have legacy code in order to achieve code that is not breaking at slightest change, or to be realistic code that is less prone to breaking on change, you have to spend ridiculous amount of time to refactor it and potentially redesign many systems, spend even bigger amount of time to test it in order to make sure you didn't break anything, and desired result after that is that everything is behaving as it was, so for outside user no change although you maybe spent months working on it, so yeah programming is fun.

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Why am I getting reminded of Facebook Group Shaming Posts that lead into big drama storms? 

 

You select a group of people who you have a problem with.  Say why they are doing something wrong and then proceed to say "Why can't we all get along"   while creating an atmosphere that it is now okay to judge those people in a harsh manner if they try and say otherwise in the topic.

I see it all the time in a gardening facebook group I am apart of.    

 

People get frustrated at problems being around that effect them for quite some time.  They want it dealt with.  The longer it goes on, the more annoyed they get or even the more numb they get.

Having someone come along and tell them "Don't you know how hard it is for the staff to fix those problems!  STOP MOANING and give them some respect! "      Or in other words "I don't want to see those kind of posts so I am going to shut them all down by telling them off like they are naughty children"  

That does not help matters at all but instead just creates more of a divide between users, drama, negative atmospheres and tribal factions.

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21 minutes ago, Zexos said:

Why am I getting reminded of Facebook Group Shaming Posts that lead into big drama storms? 

 

You select a group of people who you have a problem with.  Say why they are doing something wrong and then proceed to say "Why can't we all get along"   while creating an atmosphere that it is now okay to judge those people in a harsh manner if they try and say otherwise in the topic.

I see it all the time in a gardening facebook group I am apart of.    

 

People get frustrated at problems being around that effect them for quite some time.  They want it dealt with.  The longer it goes on, the more annoyed they get or even the more numb they get.

Having someone come along and tell them "Don't you know how hard it is for the staff to fix those problems!  STOP MOANING and give them some respect! "      Or in other words "I don't want to see those kind of posts so I am going to shut them all down by telling them off like they are naughty children"  

That does not help matters at all but instead just creates more of a divide between users, drama, negative atmospheres and tribal factions.

 

It's not first time someone that being friends with gm's or devs, or want to be dev or a gm is posting this signaling threads about how everyone should showing respects while it ignore the fact that people actually show respect or lack of respect for stuff that are apparent for them

 

And about programing, of course is not easy, like plenty of other professions, but being dificult or chalenging it shouldn't be excuse for poorly done job. What happened with being transparent, admit you did mistake, fix it or offer solution and move on, did we ever get that kind of stuff around here?

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13 minutes ago, Tor said:

job

Correct, but most devs here are volunteers. aka. Unpaid. Not exactly a job but something they do in their free time.

Edited by polarbear

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On 10/15/2022 at 7:17 AM, Votip said:

Okay but what is this topic all about?

idk. anymore.

Edited by polarbear

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5 minutes ago, polarbear said:

Correct, but most devs here are volunteers. aka. Unpaid. Not exactly a job but something they do in their free time.

 

Okay but most players actually pay monthly subscription with real money they have earned. Even free to play player would criticize if they are compeled

 

Isn't lot of programmers volonteer on projects so they have something to put in the resume and gain experience? Or i am wrong

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Votip said:

Okay but what is this topic all about?

pointless not-rant about devs obviously, there's no point¯\_(ツ)_/¯, it's just a discussion about the weather in a room with no windows

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18 minutes ago, polarbear said:

Just pointing out what I constantly see from ppl in local or different chats. Take a chill pill. If something was so easy to fix, they should be able to do "simple" programming themselves. If they can't then don't complain, in a crazy fashion. Like "garbage game, I could code this myself better"... when those peeps can't even code a simple calculator or actual simple stuff. Paraphrasing a bit from what ppl actually say. I'm just putting a message out there for stuff that the devs probably not allowed to say publicly. Be nice. it's hard work. and Rolf / gamechest group prolly not buying them redbulls and pizza to convert it to code :P 

that's wrong mindset.. if you cant code, it doesnt mean you cant see flaws, etc, who do you think reports bugs, and I'm not talking about wurm at all, it's in general

 

you can be anything and still see simple flaws that somehow evaded somebody's attention, planning, knowledge, skills, etc..

 

facebook for example for years uses ai and bot-checks to find "derp code" and alert or fix it on the spot, do you think they have few devs or some of worst kind to cause issues.. stuff just happens.. you just find means to fix more and in better manner, experts also do mistakes

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How much of the development is done by unpaid programmers?

I ask because I work in the Telecom industry. Unpaid work is unheard of there.

And all the programmers are well paid because otherwise they would leave. Believe me, because I have recruited quite a lot of them (and lost some of them) over the last two-three years.

I am just surprised a profit seeking company can get work done without paying for it.

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19 hours ago, griper said:

How much of the development is done by unpaid programmers?

I ask because I work in the Telecom industry. Unpaid work is unheard of there.

And all the programmers are well paid because otherwise they would leave. Believe me, because I have recruited quite a lot of them (and lost some of them) over the last two-three years.

I am just surprised a profit seeking company can get work done without paying for it.

 

Many of the game's developers are unpaid volunteers (not sure we know a number on that) and that has been the case for the almost-20 years that Wurm has been around. It's not that uncommon on indie games and can also be beneficial to the volunteers hopefully (since they get valuable work experience and CV material that will help in their future gamedev careers.)

 

Also, game development is a very different world to the rest of software development, in that it's much more like the art/creative/music industry: lots of people want to do it, but there aren't many projects out there and they're all underfunded. Therefore, programmers put up with lower salaries in gamedev because programmers for games are in such an oversupply that for everyone who demands a better wage, 10 people happy with their low wage would be willing to take their place.

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On 10/14/2022 at 10:14 PM, polarbear said:

Not in ... Python

I was nodding my head and agreeing until you said this silly elitism.

 

An OO programming language is an OO programming language. They all have their own trials and tribulations, just because Python's syntax is clear and understandable does not change the fundamentals.

 

Sorry you triggered my " You think C is hard try assembly, you think C++ is hard try C" ptsd. 

 

 

Edited by MrCak

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To anyone who doesn't know programming, it is HARD.

 

Not lift this heavy rock hard but more like, someone hid a sewing needle SOMEWHERE in your house and until you find it your drier wont work.

 

And you may have lost it earlier or it could have been someone else but for some reason when you find it your fridge stops working

Edited by MrCak
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Not sure whats worse, that covid finally managed to get to me or how people miss the obvious point of the post and pick the narrative they think is the easiest to attack and jump at it.

 

Sure, you can complain and moan about issues and bugs, but...

1. keep it friendly, don't be an ass when you complain about something - after all there is a human on the other side receiving your hate.

(put yourself in their shoes and then some are even unpaid and yea)

 

2. realize that Wurm is a really niché game with a small population with a small dev team that is bound by the same rules we all are.

It is what it is, complaining about it wont have the headhonchos jump to your tune, tbf I would be surprised if anyone of them frequents the forums to begin with.

Sure, the game is run by a company, sure there is a subscription, does that change any of the phyiscal limits there are? no and if that makes you unhappy, vote with your wallet as they say.

It's not like capable devs are growing on trees these days and never wanted anything more than to work on Wurm.

 

 

At the end of the day it helps no one to be an ass, it only spreads bad vibes and if I was a dev here,

oh hell it would certainly not motivate me to fix the issue you just rubbed in my face like a rotten meat pie.

Maybe I am just writing here what the one or other dev would have loved to say but refrained from for obvious reasons.

 

And just as a disclaimer, I am super hermit style, I am not friends with anyone on the current dev team. (sorry devs, but you missed nothing)

I just jumped on the post to support Polars thought about this issue and no I never spoke to him either.

I am just thankful for the work they do, maybe more people would be if they tried to understand the other side instead of just seeing their own.

(and yes, I get both sides, sure it can get annoying if you "feel" ignored, but thats more of a communication issue and I think Keenan has upped the game on that part a fair bit since he took over, but communication also takes time and thats the most valuable resource the team has.)

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As a paying costumer it doesnt matter if the workers are volunteers or how hard it is. You would still expect to get a working product that you paid for.

They are selling a service her, not doin cherity.

 

Just my point of view of this thread discuission. Got nothing to complain about :)

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I frequently need to remind myself to just let things go regarding bad game design choices, nerfs and what seems like immortal bugs.  Complaining about these Wurm subjects has never achieved anything, it's just a waste of time.  This is based on my observations after playing Wurm for around 15 IRL years.

 

Spend your time figuring out how things actually work and use it to your advantage.

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2 hours ago, joedobo said:

I frequently need to remind myself to just let things go regarding bad game design choices, nerfs and what seems like immortal bugs.  Complaining about these Wurm subjects has never achieved anything, it's just a waste of time.  This is based on my observations after playing Wurm for around 15 IRL years.

 

Spend your time figuring out how things actually work and use it to your advantage.

that's abuse and exploiting.. if something is made in a bad or unbalanced manner.. it's best to be balanced and made better in one or another way instead of abusing it;

but that's just the normal way things should be.. in reality.. some find stuff to get headstart and maybe keep the finish line away from others

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A lot of hard work and passion goes into this game, and it's not easy. 

 

The game has come leaps and bounds since the not-so-distant days of servers being down because someone was out for the weekend and various major game breaking events needing to wait for someone to address it. 

 

I'm pretty happy with how the game and development has progressed overall, and I'm excited for the future as well

Edited by Archaed
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On 10/16/2022 at 4:02 PM, Finnn said:

that's abuse and exploiting.

I disagree.  We aren't told how things are supposed to work or what is intended. Under these pretenses figuring how things work in Wurm and using that to our advantage is normal. I suppose there are examples of things that are bad and things that are fine. 

It's bad to duplicate gold coins or any other item. It's bad to circumvent the permission system on PvE (probably PvP too). 

Oh but it perfectly fine to grind channeling with a neck wound. It's fine to grind butchering by burning plates full of meat, in a forge, ontop of a lava tile, so that all the meat drops onto lava and takes damage. It's fine to wound yourself heavily and freeze said wound so you can grind woodcutting with less trees than you'd use with full stamina.  The list of advantageous ways to do things in Wurm is huge and the vast majority isn't abuse or exploiting. 

 

Also, I thought we aren't supposed to talk about rule breaking in public? And that we are supposed to make reports to a moderator? You're accusing me of breaking a rule.

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there's no "you" reference, just common sense - misuse of certain broken knowledge that's obvious to be too broken to be a thing should be reported instead of exploited, etc

 

 

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