DemonaNightshade

Valrei International: What's To Come (Part Two)

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1 hour ago, MrCak said:

My main concern is people calling for nerfs on unreleased content.

 

Stop being so scared to lose the status quo, let the system release and then pass judgement.

 

 

so you're worried about people being worried.  personally it's good for people to have concern and thinkin critically about new features.  sometimes they have unintended consequences devs didn't consider or not a fit for player base.  We are human after all.  Since this is just announced with scant info which is ok preliminarily, it is within prudent margins that a player think about the feature and how it could play out.  Often the player is the best tester.  More heads collectively arrive at a better or more comprehensive outcome than few.  Please don't characterize that as being *too scared.  it seems who may be passing premature judgement is the person worrying about people worrying.

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19 minutes ago, Sheffie said:

words

 

Of course you're saying all this, but it doesn't discount or discredit any worries that people might want to put forward. The fact you're trying to discredit this does nothing but harm potential early feedback that needs to be heard.

It's with great pleasure I'd like to remind you of the initial vague Animal Husbandry reveal thread, and how the community figured out how... really not good the system would be, prompting the devs to make a quick and much needed backtrack on one of the proposed mechanics.

tl;dr feel free to be hyped about it and think you want to wait before you cast any fears or judgment, that's fine and understandable! But don't also stand on a soapbox and try to discredit the opinions of those who have some fears about some of the stuff coming in.

 

The more I dwell on it, the more I feel like having an area with increased skillgain, affinity chance and rarity window chance is overall a bad idea no matter if every god or one god gets it. Random skillgain in small amounts I can totally understand, and I think that's fine, but offering that boost seems a little bit ropey to me. I'd personally prefer if it was scrapped entirely and both Vyn holy sites offer something different instead. While I do understand that in our already kinda warped lore that Vyn is the goddess of knowledge, skillgain is the backbone of the game and offering even more ways to get big chunks of skill seems a touch bad.

Based on wording, the fact they say "significant" skillgain is enough to make me go "hmmm" and question if this is really what we need. Dwell on different aspects of each holy site more and you may realise a lot of the effects are things players already have at their disposal at times.

The general feedback from everyone is positive, we all like what these holy sites can offer, we're just concerned on how seemingly powerful the Vynora one has the potential to be.

Also, let's not forget that final line you posted yourself is of course based on community feedback also, and you can't have that if all you want is people not talking about the concerns they have ;)

Edited by Madnath
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The balance of them is something we will be tweaking for sure before launch so thanks for all the feedback so far.

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2 minutes ago, Darklords said:

The balance of them is something we will be tweaking for sure before launch so thanks for all the feedback so far.

 

All I needed to hear honestly. Thank you Darklords, and thank you staff. I am incredibly excited for this new content and what it offers, cannot wait to see and hear more and use it myself

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Very exciting update - surely we do not know the fine details yet but I'm sure it will be good fun!

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Love this.  

 

But,

 

only having 2 holy sites on large server isn't good. Smaller server this works fine.

Edited by gorgian

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2 hours ago, Darklords said:

The balance of them is something we will be tweaking for sure before launch so thanks for all the feedback so far.

 

From balance point of view, also worth keeping in mind, anything that can be considered "an item drop" can be farmed by 10 alts for one player. Say, the special metal lumps, most possibly with special properties.

While (random) skill bonus most likely only applies to the very character that collects it.

 

Just saying. It's all relative.

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As a follower of Fo, will I be able to use the holy sites of other deities to gain their benefits? Or will I only be able to gain benefits from a holy site of Fo?

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Sheffie: At the end of the day, the devs are going to work to balance these benefits and bonuses. 

Madnath: Of course you're saying all this, but it doesn't discount or discredit any worries that people might want to put forward. The fact you're trying to discredit this does nothing but harm potential early feedback that needs to be heard.

 

Darklords: The balance of them is something we will be tweaking for sure before launch so thanks for all the feedback so far.

Madnath: All I needed to hear honestly. Thank you Darklords, and thank you staff.

 

I hope this is cleared up now.

I wasn't trying to discredit anybody.

I tried to summarize how each of the gods has multiple potentially powerful benefits — and to give an idea of the huge number of variables which are (a) unknown to us now (b) adjustable by the devs in the interest of game balance.

And once again, I'd like to encourage people to participate in the process by using the test server as much as possible. Feedback is always valuable, but the more information you have, the more your feedback is going to be worth.

Edited by Sheffie
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5 hours ago, gnomegates said:

So many questions from so many people.....Why was this released and no one is here monitoring this post and answering questions? 

 

Drop something this major that raises so many questions, and we get silence!

 

I think so many of us want to love this new content, but you, the dev team have to help us love it by not leaving us lingering with unanswered questions.

 

We are definitely monitoring the post and collecting feedback to help fine-tune the features. I personally don't have all the answers, and I'm not going to answer things pretending that I do, in case I'm wrong or mistaken 😅 These sneak peeks bring a lot of feedback from you guys that can give us things to think about that we may not have thought of and can really help us development wise on this feature and show us what needs to be tweaked or taken into consideration. Then we discuss before giving answers, rather than give ones that may end up not being correct. 

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I hope the holy sites remain vastly different and unique. If they all become the same boring 1% skill gain boost and some sleep bonus I'll be disappointed. Liking how it all reads right now. Cant wait to test the features.

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I would love to see a mechanic in this system that allows greater benefit for more followers arriving at the site. This could encourage more community members to bring in their friends and neighbors to share the benefits of the holy site and encourage a greater level of cooperation among the players on a server, while penalizing attempts to block or limit access.

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I love that you're putting more content in the game to make the most of the religious system; that's always seemed like woefully underused lore and I'm excited to see what this update brings. ❤️

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14 hours ago, Madnath said:

The more I dwell on it, the more I feel like having an area with increased skillgain, affinity chance and rarity window chance is overall a bad idea no matter if every god or one god gets it. Random skillgain in small amounts I can totally understand, and I think that's fine, but offering that boost seems a little bit ropey to me. I'd personally prefer if it was scrapped entirely and both Vyn holy sites offer something different instead. While I do understand that in our already kinda warped lore that Vyn is the goddess of knowledge, skillgain is the backbone of the game and offering even more ways to get big chunks of skill seems a touch bad.

Based on wording, the fact they say "significant" skillgain is enough to make me go "hmmm" and question if this is really what we need. Dwell on different aspects of each holy site more and you may realise a lot of the effects are things players already have at their disposal at times.

The general feedback from everyone is positive, we all like what these holy sites can offer, we're just concerned on how seemingly powerful the Vynora one has the potential to be.

Also, let's not forget that final line you posted yourself is of course based on community feedback also, and you can't have that if all you want is people not talking about the concerns they have ;)

 

I do think the vyn area sounds too OP, so I agree with Madnath here. Vynora is already the meta god to follow for almost everyone (since the 10% skillgain buff is massive) and giving Vyn yet another buff is probably too far.

 

Some other ways to balance this could be to make the bonuses of the Vynora holy site not "significant" (but still good enough to be worth travelling to), or maybe time-limited in some way (so you only get it for 30 minutes/1 hour before a cooldown kicks in before you can use it again. Good enough to travel to, but not OP.)

 

Alternatively, every holy site could give skillgain or affinity bonuses in some way. I think that's fair and balanced because players lose some time to travel to them, but it would mean that for skill grinders (i.e.: almost all players), Vynora holy sites wouldn't automatically be so meta. E.g.: Vynora's sites could give bonuses to woodworking and woodcutting, whereas maybe Magranon's would be smithing and fighting skills, for instance.

 

I think there are a lot of ways this could be balanced to make all gods' holy sites equal, I'm excited to see how it turns out 😊

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I don't think I've been this excited for Wurm since I started playing.  Thank you for the updates, and I'm really looking forward to seeing this unfold in whatever final form it comes to!

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Once found and activated by a player through prayer, a Holy Site will provide passive benefits to everyone in its area of influence, such as enhanced passive bonuses from your god, an increase to the quality bonus when improving materials your god favors, and greater Faith gain from prayers and sermons.

So let me get this straight we have to be in the area of influence to get these bonuses but we can not terraform in the area thus digging and mining are out of the question(and potentially woodcutting) as gains from vyn passive skill gain a bit sad on this

 

Quote

In addition, an activated Holy Site will periodically pulse with energy, providing a gift or other benefit to all worshipers present. In between these pulse events, every player will also get one chance to perform a special action on the site in order to gather special resources, increase skills, or get other benefits. These resources and benefits will all depend on the type of Holy Site and its associated deity.

So based on this the Akashic mirror if it rolls the randomly chosen skill onto mining then your screwed until the next pulse(or digging or woodcutting)?
For the wellspring of knowledge better affinity gain would be nice on previously mentioned skills as well but how long will this buff last for?

Overall i like the idea but knowing how quirky wurm is and knowing we cant terraform around them to me personally being a vyn(vyn forever) follower I will wait till the patch notes and hopefully a better explanation on how it all works as with how it stands currently i will not leave my cave for this mining project is worth more then a detour with wasting time standing around getting stuff for useless skills with 141 skills and 6 of those being unusable(digging mining woodcutting shovel pickaxe hatchet) there is roughly a 8.46% chance the vyn ones will be useless for me.

Also if these buffs are only in the area they are in and we are not allowed to build in there how the hell are you expecting us to improve metal items? honestly the only worth while one to try and roll for rarity guess we gonna have to make campfires if possible or run in carrying glowing hot items in our hands to be in buff area on pulse.

So hopefully i am wrong on all these points but otherwise nice gimmick 10/10 will die out after a month or 2-3 of use and people realizing how 1 broken it was in day 1 and week 1 before things get nerfed to no end and then how much of a waste of time it becomes after month 1(look at rifts) either way i want to be proven wrong so hopefully by release there will be 1. A great explanation on how they work 2. they do not have some kind of weird restriction like mentioned above and 3. the buffs granted will last a while after leaving the area and arent tied to the area directly(i wouldnt mind making a mine nearby to mine for example sandstone is plentiful)

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It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how it ties into the Exploration theme....  It's more of a pilgrimage thing that mostly benefits those it spawns near IF they worship that god.   No doubt it will be exciting to find out in the world, but honestly it doesn't make me want to go out and explore when I already get benefits from my altars at home.  I don't know though, maybe it will feel differently in the game, but it's missing the Exploration mark for me.

 

Something that would make sense as an Exploration feature (to me, at least), would be to designate "landmarks" that people could seek out.  Like you could "designate" that amazing temple or castle you built and are so proud of, as a "landmark."  Something that works more like a tourism boost where the adventurer gets some sort of bonus for finding a "designated" (built) or "natural" (randomly spawning) "landmark."  It doesn't have to be grand, just a little serotonin kick from finding one.  Personally, I'd love to see something like that. :D

 

I've made a few Exploration suggestion posts over the years, so I'm very interested in seeing more of this idea!  I made a post ages ago where the idea was to get people out visiting each others deeds.  We all put so much work into our deeds, it's nice for that hard work to be seen. :)  (Well ok, my original, original idea was to get skill gains from exploring but holes were poked in that idea immediately!)  FYI, I would absolutely volunteer my time to this! (I used to be a professional level designer, if that helps.)

 

I do appreciate all of your hard work all the same, and I do really look forward to seeing this new addition in the game.  It is really cool!  ...But it's just not fulfilling the "exploration" itch, in my personal view at least.  

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The more I think of this, the more I think about how religion needs to be more balanced as a whole.   The entire black light vs white light is so unbalanced for pvp in particular it isn't fun.  The roll play solution is to force each kingdom to have only 1 god.  The easier solution is to allow each kingdom to have any/all gods.  Even more interesting would be to either switch Fo to Black Light, or to add in 2 new Black light gods and rebalance Lib to be less of a jack of all trades and more of a specialist (along with a free priest transfer to go with the rebalance).  Now that champs are no longer a thing it should make it easier to do an integration.  There can even be differences - epic 1 god, chaos all gods, defiance... don't know enough but would guess all gods.  Please consider incorporating this balancing within the plans to fix some of the lore and ongoing lopsidedness.  

 

Some serious balancing of the effects needs to happen as well.  Test server will be great for it, but I look at a zombie companion as a bla, and a new food item sounds good, but in practice won't change much due to complexity limits already in place.  A new moon metal sounds really nice - and will love to see how the mithril (or whatever it is called) works - can be a great thing.  Skill point bonus basically needs a portable crafting hall, and I will find it funny to see how many forges, looms, etc. suddenly appear at random spots all over each map (as no buildings - like a rift zone I assume).  As this is only a sampling, I keep imagining things like a Vyn zone that allows priests to imp and non-priests to cast spells.   Having the zones have a serious negative effect might also be nice and help with balancing - you have a 1% increase to rarity, but items (including armor worn, wagons inside the area, forges dropped on the ground) take a 10-20ql hit per hour (man, hate to be that guy that logged out in his scale set and came back nakid).  Or for every imp action on an item, there is a 1% cumulative chance that it explodes damaging all other items nearby, including players, horses, etc.  

 

Overall, I am enjoying the possibilities and very much looking forward to what is to come.

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I appreciate your opinion and because of that I owe an clarification even though I feel guilty posting this as this is not really the place for this conversation.

 

On 9/19/2022 at 1:06 PM, Bloodscythe said:

so you're worried about people being worried.

I have concerns that people's fear on conceptual system's balancing just creates static between good feedback and the devs.

 

On 9/19/2022 at 1:06 PM, Bloodscythe said:

Since this is just announced with scant info which is ok preliminarily, it is within prudent margins that a player think about the feature and how it could play out.   

Voicing concern about balance is great, coming up with imagined solutions to imagined problems seems kind of silly.

 

Quote

Often the player is the best tester.

Yes players are the beta testers, that is why the test server exists.

 

Quote

More heads collectively arrive at a better or more comprehensive outcome than few.

More voices, create more dissonance.

 

 

 

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The elephant in the room seems to be the proposed skill bonuses for Vyn sites.


The game keeps track of our participation in rift events and rewards participants accordingly.  So it's not unthinkable that the game could keep track of participation in Holy Site events and reward participants accordingly.

 

That said, Vyn having 10% bonus for every skill does seem powerful, even when you consider that she offers little else for followers (priests have the enormous profit opportunity of the most popular enchants).  It's a discussion for another time, but I wouldn't mind seeing some of the skill bonus distributed among the gods that more closely align to those skills (Nature for Fo, Mining for Mag, and so on, much the way that Characteristic bonuses are distributed).  It makes no sense for Vyn to offer skill bonus to destroying pavement within her domain, for example.

 

Perhaps, as Holy Sites are new, consideration could be given to this idea.  Based on your participation level, you are awarded a buff that grants you a boon in skill gain for skills related specifically to that god.  Instead of the buff being a timed buff, it is a usage buff: it only decays as you use it, and when it fully decays, the buff is gone.

 

(Those "pulse" events could add "strength" to the buff)

 

Or perhaps participants gain skill ticks at the conclusion of the event in specific related skills, the magnitudes of which are scaled against participation level and some hidden balance constant.  You shouldn't need to be present at the end, though that could also grant a bonus and thus provide incentive to stay for the entire duration if possible.

 

Vyn is the god of knowledge, so perhaps her skill benefits could be slightly larger than the other gods.

 


If skill benefits are as they are now for Vyn followers and grant a bonus to everything, then everyone (followers and non-followers) needs to be equal and receive the skill bonus else Vyn does indeed tip into that overpowered zone once Holy Sites are added.

 

However, if skill benefits are awarded based on skills related to the specific god, then there is justification for making it follower-only for the skill gain benefits, or maybe give non-followers a reduced effect.  Let your choices matter, with everyone benefiting in some way but not in others.

 

Specific skill buffs, plus a new look at the skill bonus distribution for simply being a follower would provide incentive to follow specific gods for specific reasons, instead of all non-priests just following Vyn for the 10% bonus.  My main is a Vyn follower, though my interests and activities would otherwise line up more with Mag benefits; that Vyn bonus is just too good to pass up.

 

 

Having some generic Holy Site types, applicable to all gods, would work as well as having a few deity-specific Holy Site types.  Skill gains could be one of the generic types.

 

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It pulses with energy and provides some kind of gift, so they'll just be alt central? why not just provide one good item or boon when you travel to it, don't encourage alt camping please.

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Also, if the new Fo fruit can't be used to make flavored gin and special wine I will personally assist mag in burning down all forests. This is all. 

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Have you tested if a rift can spawn on them or via versa, would be interesting at a rift for sure having both at one place.

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