Finnn

Nerf whetstone creation difficulty?

Recommended Posts

Could we nerf the difficulty for creating whetstones?

They can not be improved, and at high skill without imbue on the stone chisel seem quite "impossible" to achieve optimal results.

 

Lets see what we can do with: 
3x stone shards QL100.00 
1x rare ql94.54 stone chisel(no skillcheck rune or imbue)
1x player with 99.01 stonecutting skill

 

Results x181:

60x ql 99.99-90.05
51x ql 89.98-80.54
39x ql 79.66-70.32
26x ql 69.62-50.59
2x  ql 45.33-44.53
1x  ql 32.99
2x  ql 27.97-20.64

 

Spoiler

860220dfdbf80056b4f00f4355599503.png

 

 

4.4% success rate to create whetstone equal to player's skill from near 200 samples, half that % if we only count the 100 tries... yikes

 

What do you think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did this used to be easier? I’m pretty sure I made several 100 ql ones a few years ago with a 70ish stonecutting skill. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, LionIX said:

Did this used to be easier? I’m pretty sure I made several 100 ql ones a few years ago with a 70ish stonecutting skill. 

probably not.. I wasn't always having 99 stone cutting skill or ability to mine ql100 rocks.. so this is now possible to "test" and experience these numbers for a rather useless tool that can't be improved and seems to be ~3% chance creation at player skill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just made 20 to see what I would get. At only 50 Stone Cutting (Yeah, I need to work on that) and using a 97ql Supreme Chisel on 100ql stone shards I was able to get the following:

 

100 - 8

90's - 3

80's - 1

70's - 4

Under 70 - 4

 

I don't think the difficulty is too high for making Whetstones. Unless there is something else, I missed.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, brattygirl said:

I just made 20 to see what I would get. At only 50 Stone Cutting (Yeah, I need to work on that) and using a 97ql Supreme Chisel on 100ql stone shards I was able to get the following:

 

100 - 8

90's - 3

80's - 1

70's - 4

Under 70 - 4

 

I don't think the difficulty is too high for making Whetstones. Unless there is something else, I missed.

With 100 stonecutting imbue on your chisel? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

smells like bug report to me, either 1 thing or it somehow reuses gathering faulty code similar to woodcutting... and rolls at/over 100.. rerolling into something lower... that never got fixed there.. maybe here it's similar👏

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can confirm that whetstone quality variance has always been bugged.

I have seen frequent and extremely unlikely bad luck streaks even with 100 imbue at 70SC, like 5% of 100 ql on a sample of 100

Then like 50% of 100ql still on a sample of 100.

This happened multiple times.

Relogging or switching the position of chisel and rockshards in the crafting window worked in the past to get back to the right creation chance.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Finnn said:

smells like bug report to me, either 1 thing or it somehow reuses gathering faulty code similar to woodcutting... and rolls at/over 100.. rerolling into something lower... that never got fixed there.. maybe here it's similar👏

Code wise i assume its just using the general item creator code like any other item is used for my guess its something to do with the imbue and not the skill or chisel or rock shard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is not unique to whetstones but is a result of how creation works and how rolls land when you start to get near 100, the code rerolls when you land over 100, up to 100 times. Without this cap your average roll at 99 skill with a 5 difficulty item would be around 113, but due to this cap and the high distribution you are unlikely to roll between 99 and 100 (~3% by my quick maths) and it is virtually impossible to roll a 100 (where the rounding is insignificant). The imbue works in a different way and adds to the ql, allowing it to be pushed to a 100 on a much lower roll.

 

Edit: Constructive suggestion

The difficulty is not the issue here but how creation works as a whole, you could add a bonus where titles provide +1, +2, +3 and +4 for 50, 70, 90 and 100 respectively ql (still capping at 100 obviously) to the roll which would increase the chance of a 100ql whetstone to ~15% at 99 skill. or something like add skill/20 or if you wanted to favor higher skills then something like skill^3/200000 (.6 at 50 skill, 1.7 at 70 skill, 3.6 at 90 skill and 4.9 at 99 skil)

 

This would be a major change in how creation ql is calculated and would obviously have several knock on effects.

 

Edited by Lethyria
Added a suggestion for creation of high skill items.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, have to add this for clarity:

While i'm sure there was at some point a bug causing what i described to whetstones, after looking again at your data, this is not the case, i'm not even sure that bug is there anymore cause i encountered it while grinding whetstones several years ago.

I'm too used to have imbue, but you can consider that with 100 imbue, every whetstone that you got above 83ql would have probably been 100ql if you had imbue, that would sum up to more than half being 100QL, that seems about right. no bugs there.

It's just extremely hard/nearly impossible to hit 100ql without boosts, and for some reason the bonus to QL from rarity was reduced from flat 1 to a very low amount at high values. (and i didn't remember that was the case even for whetstones)




 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Lethyria said:

This is not unique to whetstones but is a result of how creation works and how rolls land when you start to get near 100, the code rerolls when you land over 100, up to 100 times. Without this cap your average roll at 99 skill with a 5 difficulty item would be around 113, but due to this cap and the high distribution you are unlikely to roll between 99 and 100 (~3% by my quick maths) and it is virtually impossible to roll a 100 (where the rounding is insignificant). The imbue works in a different way and adds to the ql, allowing it to be pushed to a 100 on a much lower roll.

 

Edit: Constructive suggestion

The difficulty is not the issue here but how creation works as a whole, you could add a bonus where titles provide +1, +2, +3 and +4 for 50, 70, 90 and 100 respectively ql (still capping at 100 obviously) to the roll which would increase the chance of a 100ql whetstone to ~15% at 99 skill. or something like add skill/20 or if you wanted to favor higher skills then something like skill^3/200000 (.6 at 50 skill, 1.7 at 70 skill, 3.6 at 90 skill and 4.9 at 99 skil)

 

This would be a major change in how creation ql is calculated and would obviously have several knock on effects.

 

and that's why we BADLY need QoL for endgame... for such kind of actions and gathering skills (mining/woodcutting/digging).....

I only assume code is similar to gathering, that never got fixed.. mining at high skill with high ql tool is garbage experience.. what is the point of having high ql vein, high skill and high ql tool if rng just demolish the results *shrugs*, testing, quality, experience, off you all go through the window, rng is king *shrugs* 😩

 

what is the point to grind high skill if you get shanked and get terrible results.. but overall on average lower skilled player can get same or better avrg results(yes.. obviously cant achieve some of the highest rolls) on avrg score is similar, seems like bad balance, sorry I meant last of balance and testing

 

Some time ago tried Woodcutting with 99skill, rare hatchet and results for mid logs are disgusting, at ~90 skill - the ql rolls were better, more logs at high-er ql.. vs endgame and skill giving low ql re-rolls as mentioned above, that have been reported, it's still unpatched, why.. never had dev answer

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Finnn said:

and that's why we BADLY need QoL for endgame... for such kind of actions and gathering skills (mining/woodcutting/digging).....

I only assume code is similar to gathering, that never got fixed.. mining at high skill with high ql tool is garbage experience.. what is the point of having high ql vein, high skill and high ql tool if rng just demolish the results *shrugs*, testing, quality, experience, off you all go through the window, rng is king *shrugs* 😩

 

what is the point to grind high skill if you get shanked and get terrible results.. but overall on average lower skilled player can get same or better avrg results(yes.. obviously cant achieve some of the highest rolls) on avrg score is similar, seems like bad balance, sorry I meant last of balance and testing

 

Some time ago tried Woodcutting with 99skill, rare hatchet and results for mid logs are disgusting, at ~90 skill - the ql rolls were better, more logs at high-er ql.. vs endgame and skill giving low ql re-rolls as mentioned above, that have been reported, it's still unpatched, why.. never had dev answer

 

Yeah it is fair to say that the benefit of grinding creation skills super high is marginal at best. Imping it certainly makes a difference but there are 2 things about late game here that do matter somewhat. You are talking about stonecutting which has an endgame feature which is rune creation where very high skill can matter, and do you not consider imbues endgame content just because they are not grinding or because of how they are obtained?

Edited by Lethyria

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Lethyria said:

Yeah it is fair to say that the benefit of grinding creation skills super high is marginal at best. Imping it certainly makes a difference but there are 2 things about late game here that do matter somewhat. You are talking about stonecutting which has an endgame feature which is rune creation where very high skill can matter, and do you not consider imbues endgame content just because they are not grinding or because of how they are obtained?

I assume imbues are shortcut to easier achieved results, but not required step to utilize player skill and by no extend needed to do endgame content.

Alternative would make them needed in bulk.. as there are 2 to 5-6 different actions for some skills, where possible to bump all tools to which you could apply imbue.. some players will be using multiple tools or replacing normal/rare/supreme with better or worse one because of reasons...(broken/selling/trading/gifting/etc..)

Can you imagine the game having adequate supply for such needs?

 

When it comes to runes, players skill is mostly irrelevant, you obviously get somewhat better chance to craft them at excessively high skill, but main game changer when you craft runes is the rift material QL, higher ql significantly improves the creation chance and imo that is unnecessary, there should be 50/50 weight between skill and material ql to achieve good results, are you master at that skill or Tarzan and knock rocks; faith and being follower or priest of the deity and making a rune of theirs is supposedly giving 20% higher chance, often crafting windows shows identical % chance for every option, how much does that work... who knows...

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Finnn said:

I assume imbues are shortcut to easier achieved results, but not required step to utilize player skill and by no extend needed to do endgame content.

Alternative would make them needed in bulk.. as there are 2 to 5-6 different actions for some skills, where possible to bump all tools to which you could apply imbue.. some players will be using multiple tools or replacing normal/rare/supreme with better or worse one because of reasons...(broken/selling/trading/gifting/etc..)

Can you imagine the game having adequate supply for such needs?

 

When it comes to runes, players skill is mostly irrelevant, you obviously get somewhat better chance to craft them at excessively high skill, but main game changer when you craft runes is the rift material QL, higher ql significantly improves the creation chance and imo that is unnecessary, there should be 50/50 weight between skill and material ql to achieve good results, are you master at that skill or Tarzan and knock rocks; faith and being follower or priest of the deity and making a rune of theirs is supposedly giving 20% higher chance, often crafting windows shows identical % chance for every option, how much does that work... who knows...

 

 

 

I think your assumption of imbues is incorrect for creation, they are to achieve the best possible results but I take it you dislike this design.

 

No there is not enough blood for everyone to imbue multiple tools sure, there aren't that many creation tools and I'd also like to see additional sources of imbues.

 

I agree a higher weighting on skill could be nice for runes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now