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flonkulina

How about change km/h?

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Should ship speed be measured and displayed in knots then?

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1 hour ago, Coach said:

 

 

 

 

 

Some people understand tiles/minute as how many tiles have pass in a minute? like km/h as how many km have pass in a hour.
AB
CD
EF
GH
Each letter represents one tile. There are 8 tiles here. Assume walking a straight line from Tile A to Tile G is 4 tiles/minute. Same distance and same speed with a straight line with slope from Tile A to Tile H, u can passed through Tile A, C, E, F and H, so it's 5 tiles/minute.
So using tiles/minute might confuse people for representing speed.

If u understand the concept, u can get 6 tiles/minute from Tile A to Tile H with a curve line with same distance and same speed.

why complicate it? it is logical. Either use km and km/h or use tile and tiles/minute. To mix them as it is now. Makes it harder to calculate what time it takes from 1 point to another.

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4 minutes ago, Huserx said:

Should ship speed be measured and displayed in knots then?

as i said a world messurement in tiles/minute, solves the problems, no knots, no miles, no km. Just 1 speed

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Displaying speed in "tiles per minute" is problematic because of diagonals. I think that is the point that Coach was making.

Measuring from North to South, a tile is exactly 4 m across. But from NW to SE, for example, it's around 5.65 m — larger by the square root of 2.

A "tile" is only a good unit of distance if you define it in terms of metres... which ought to tell you that a more fundamental unit is available.

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53 minutes ago, Sheffie said:

Displaying speed in "tiles per minute" is problematic because of diagonals. I think that is the point that Coach was making.

Measuring from North to South, a tile is exactly 4 m across. But from NW to SE, for example, it's around 5.65 m — larger by the square root of 2.

A "tile" is only a good unit of distance if you define it in terms of metres... which ought to tell you that a more fundamental unit is available.

Thats a point. Then better make everything to km in the routing, and keep the "km/h"

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I like the idea of seeing tiles per minute, I doubt anyone would expect it to be an exact science, just an estimate of how many tiles you'd likely cover at the current pace.

 

Make it an option in the settings so people can choose their preference :)

Edited by HawkHawk

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9 hours ago, Sheffie said:

Displaying speed in "tiles per minute" is problematic because of diagonals. I think that is the point that Coach was making.

Measuring from North to South, a tile is exactly 4 m across. But from NW to SE, for example, it's around 5.65 m — larger by the square root of 2.

A "tile" is only a good unit of distance if you define it in terms of metres... which ought to tell you that a more fundamental unit is available.

Umm... i am not sure if i understand correctly in the last sentence. Let's explain it in numbers.

On the third and fourth sentences, From NW to SE as from Tile A to Tiles H(5 tiles/min) straight line with slope(A, C, E ,F, H), its still 16 m long(not the diagonal(it would be >16m) connecting two vertices)because people walk the same speed(16m/min) and same distance(16 m) as Tile A to Tiles G(4 tiles/min)(A, C, E, G).

 

Let's try another example. Each letter represents one tile. Assume each tile is 4 m x 4 m square. From Tile A to Tile G is 16 m long, request 1 minute to walk that 16 m distance, so its 4 tiles/min and 16m/min.

Imagine walking 16 m long distance using 1 min within only the Tiles A(4 m x 4 m sqaure), like circling in a square(1 tile), so its 1 tile/min and 16m/min.

AB

CD

EF

GH

So using tiles/minute might confuse people for representing speed because people walk in curve, S-shape, W-shape, circling, diagonal, irregular line, etc.

Edited by Coach

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6 hours ago, Coach said:

So using tiles/minute might confuse people for representing speed because people walk in curve, S-shape, W-shape, circling, diagonal, irregular line, etc.

 

So to clarify, when you drive a car in a circle at 30MPH, you're saying the speedometer shouldn't show 30MPH because you're not moving at 30MPH directly away from your starting point?

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15 hours ago, Sheffie said:

Displaying speed in "tiles per minute" is problematic because of diagonals. I think that is the point that Coach was making.

Measuring from North to South, a tile is exactly 4 m across. But from NW to SE, for example, it's around 5.65 m — larger by the square root of 2.

A "tile" is only a good unit of distance if you define it in terms of metres... which ought to tell you that a more fundamental unit is available.

This sounds so complicated while it's exactly meters per minute divided by 4, traveling in any direction, any curve.

We already know meters per minute because we know kilometers per hour...

 

I really don't care if this gets added to the game but the point is that it's very simple to do the calculations in to miles per hour or tiles per minute or any other unit of speed.

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3 hours ago, DeviledEgg said:

So to clarify, when you drive a car in a circle at 30MPH, you're saying the speedometer shouldn't show 30MPH because you're not moving at 30MPH directly away from your starting point?

 

2 hours ago, Locath said:

I really don't care if this gets added to the game but the point is that it's very simple to do the calculations in to miles per hour or tiles per minute or any other unit of speed.

 

No. If i drive a car in a circle at 30MPH, the speedmeter should show 30MPH, or 30x0.44704 for m/s, 30x1.609344 for km/h, 30x0.868976 for knot, 30x1.466667 for ft/s. As people say it's just a simple conversion of units of speed.
However, tiles(2-dimensional) is different from meters, kilometers, miles, nautical miles, feet(1-dimensional). Because meters, kilometers, miles, nautical miles, feet represent length, but tiles represent chunks(squares).
If i drive a car in a circle within a chunk at 30MPH, it is at 30MPH and 1 tiles/min. Like how many chunk have i step in a minute? only 1 because i was driving in a circle and i didn't step out the chunk. I stepped one tiles in one minute.

Edited by Coach

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1 hour ago, Coach said:


If i drive a car in a circle within a chunk at 30MPH, it is at 30MPH and 1 tiles/min. Like how many chunk have i step in a minute? only 1 because i was driving in a circle and i didn't step out the chunk. I stepped one tiles in one minute.

 

W.... what?

 

If you start your journey "here", travel for 17 thousand miles and end the trip in the same spot, your velocity was zero?

Speed has nothing to do with angle you travel at, curves or anything other than distance traveled in unit of time.

That unit can be 1m, 1km or 1 tile (4x1m). This isn't hard.

 

Distance does not equal speed.

 

Velocity is the prime indicator of the position as well as the rapidity of the object. It can be defined as the distance covered by an object in unit time. Velocity can be defined as the displacement of the object in unit time.

 

Both, Distance and Unit of time can be whatever you want them to be. If you have accurate measurements of a banana you can present the speed in bananas per hour. This doesn't mean that bananas were involved in any way in the actual travel.

 

Also, how come the game is able to show that i'm traveling at the SPEED of 20km/h if i only traveled 1/10 of a TILE LENGHT? I didn't travel 20km and i ended up in the same spot.

 

This could be easily done client-side.

Edited by Locath

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3 hours ago, Locath said:

That unit can be 1m, 1km or 1 tile (4x1m). This isn't hard.

The key point is here, u see 1 tile(4x1m) as the length of one side of a square, but 1 tile is actually a square.


BTW, velocity does not equal speed. Wurm online only displays player's current speed under the health bar.

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If you're on a straight east-west highway at "fourteen tiles per minute", you'll see fourteen catseyes go past per minute. On a diagonal highway at the same speed, you'll see ten.

 

This is an approximation, but hopefully it illustrates why people might still have problems with the "tiles per minute" measure.

It sounds human-friendly and very relatable, but the minute you try to use it in that way, you get a nasty surprise.

Edited by Sheffie

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I agree, and stand to my -1. The km/h is something intuitive for every player at least outside the imperial measure universe, and is used to measure speed of pedestrians, cyclists, and motorists. I would understand a suggestion to allow mph in profile for those feeling uncomfortable with in UK, USA etc. A tile per time unit measure would require to adapt and learn to link to a km/h or mph measure one usually thinks of when relating to speed.

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6 hours ago, Sheffie said:

If you're on a straight east-west highway at "fourteen tiles per minute", you'll see fourteen catseyes go past per minute. On a diagonal highway at the same speed, you'll see ten.

This is an approximation,

4m x 2.5 = 10m. 5.65m x 2.5 = 14.125m.

Some people see 1 tile as the length of one side of a square(4m).

Some people see 1 tile as the length of diagonal of a square(5.65m).

Some people see 1 tile as a whole square(4m x 4m).
With the different examples from Sheffie and me, hope people understand why tiles/minute shouldn't be added.

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I don't think players generally measure distance by diagonal tile length unless they're specifically measuring diagonally; a 2D grid is a fairly common concept. Deed dimensions are also given in tiles and no one seems to be having trouble with that unit of distance.
When looking at their speed, players are unlikely to be counting tiles as an absolute unless they're travelling across tiles horizontally as I think most payers understand that diagonals skew the measurement, plus there are plenty of other factors that require a player to change their route and speed. I personally just check the distance at the next waystone. Even if a player does want to count, metres are much harder to count because there's no clear marker for when you've travelled one meter. One tile being 4m across when perfectly flat isn't exactly common knowledge to a new player or consistent to count either. Tiles are the measurement most players interact with during gameplay because that's what the world is visually and mechanically divided into.

 

As a unit of distance in Wurm, metres are more abstract but technically more accurate, tiles are more intuitive but less accurate. When combined with a distance in the same units, both measurements give a relative idea of how long it'll take you to reach a destination. So irrespective of the opinions on tiles as a measurement, this suggestion seems to have evolved to be more about consistency in measurements and all the better if the player can choose metres or tiles. Considering tiles, measured by the length of a side when flat, is a simple conversion from metres which the game already supports, that seems reasonable.


So +1 for allowing players to select a measurement and using that for movement speed, distance on waystones and whatever else.

Edited by DeviledEgg

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On 8/9/2022 at 3:37 AM, MordosKull said:

I agree, being from the US and the game using a combo of tiles and kms for distance measures, it's not the easiest to get a feel for distance or speed.

 

Maybe make it a changeable preference what speed and route distances are measured in? km/mph/tiles

 

My favourite suggestion here - just make it a preference that can be selected. Very easy to implement too as the km/h number just needs scaling to different units.

 

It may be worth keeping one fundamental unit (e.g. km/h) always there on mouseover, though, so that people can quickly check how fast something is and tell others on a standard scale, even if e.g. mph is displayed to them. Also, everything on the wiki is in km/h, and so it's still important to have your km/h speed accessible easily in case you need it, without having to open the settings window.

Edited by Docterchese

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This is all getting way to advanced for me, can we just stick to the way Sheffie explained it?

15 hours ago, Sheffie said:

If you're on a straight east-west highway at "fourteen tiles per minute", you'll see fourteen catseyes go past per minute. On a diagonal highway at the same speed, you'll see ten.

 

I can see how this system is not going to be 100% accurate 100% of the time but I think the idea is just an estimate so you know roughly how long it will take to get somewhere.

 

Seeing as this would be an optional change you could enable in the menu and the glaring obvious thing to do if you don't like it would be to not switch it on, I really don't see a problem with it. If people are that worried about how someone else is calculating their speed perhaps the option should say "estimated tiles per minute" and calculate based on how many were crossed in the last 10 seconds multiplied by 6

 

 

 

 

Edited by HawkHawk

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