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wipeout

Do people really not get how auctions are supposed to work anymore?

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1 hour ago, Coach said:

 

As far as i understand, all these posts are circling one important point, current auction system can attract people who are just business partner(friend) bidding each others stuff to raise the value of items, to hide the "real" price. Because the bidder are too lazy to monitor the wurm economy to check the "real" price of items, the bidder might got scammed by the business partner(friend) easily. I believe the business partner(friend)are doing a tactic called Price fixing under the Anti-competitive practices.

 

I see something as OP see it too, people are doing tactics that ruin a proper economy. That's why i made a post(Discussion about auction with no pm-bidding) about why a method in auction shouldn't be added.


Back to this post, people need to define what is a proper economy environment. So that an auction system can be adjusted according to the ideal proper economy environment in wurm.
Feel like the conspiracy theorists can never bid a single item under the current auction system because there is always a chance people use alt forum accounts to push up the bid artifically under the current auction system.🤭

 

If an auction system doesn't fit the ideal proper economy environment from the person, of course it bothers the person. That's why people are hesitating to add the "max price increments".

 

Those go beyond assumptions and opinion and are accusations.

 

Consider:  You are wrong.

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On 8/6/2022 at 3:35 AM, Coach said:

the bidder might got scammed by the business partner(friend) easily. I believe the business partner(friend)are doing a tactic called Price fixing under the Anti-competitive practices.

 

I already attested that I - a nobody - have received a (too) large amount of silver for an item from one of the regular high-auction auction holders. That means the money is not kept within a small group of people.

 

So people should refrain from accusations. There is simply a number of players that think extravagant prices are fine. We should all be happy for that.

Edited by Cista

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Oh, everyone can be wrong. I was saying what i tried to understand from all those large amount of paragraphs from OP. Maybe OP didn't think the bidder might got scammed because the bidder are too lazy to price check, but maybe because the bidder have no time to check.
People can consider the post as "Hey, do i understand u(OP) correctly. Are u talking about anti-competitive practices from all those paragraphs."

Also, i don't know if OP see the tactics that people were doing as same as me. Maybe we see and think the different tactics, that's why i said there was a method(pm-bidding) in auction people was using. In other words, "Hey, have u seen this tactic."


And this is called communication.

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If you think that people are using underhand tactics to try to drive up prices for their friends' auctions, then by all means contact the staff with a specific complaint.

 

 

If we don't have good reason to believe otherwise, we have to assume that when a player bids X amount for item Y, they are actually happy to pay X. It is very difficult for any observer to say, "but Y isn't worth X!!!!" when someone is apparently willing to pay X.

 

Also, @wipeout, your long post about prices seemed inconsistent. You talked about a rare bone that receives only 3 bids and sells for 70s, and another one that receives many bids with smaller increments and eventually sells for a higher price. Later in the same post, you say that the auction with more bids gives a better indication of the "true price". I'm pretty sure that you also said these big bids were pushing prices up. Can you maybe go back and make sure that your post actually says what you wanted to say? Do you believe that a rare bone is worth 70s, more, or less?

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One way or another, the item being auctioned goes for what it should; either close to or at market value or far above because someone REALLY wanted it - even if there are underhanded tactics going on behind the scenes to try to drive the price. Underhanded tactics can also leave the seller without a real buyer except for their alt or whoever was trying to help, thus no true sale, and now they're just stuck with their item at the end of the day.

 

As others have mentioned, jumping out there with a high bid can be the result of numerous factors. Maybe the bidder won't be available at auction close and they're offering their best bid all at once. Maybe the bidder is present but just wants to cut to the chase and get the item up where it needs to be quickly and stop watching a chain of tiny increment changes in price. Maybe it's just the bidder's best offer and they're putting it out there by choice whether present for auction close or not. 

 

I'm not sure why any of this would upset anyone

 

Your main gripe seems to be that this method of bidding kills the excitement of a bidding war, but keep in mind, online auctions are less apt to have such a vivacious, low increment, heated bidding war because not all the bidders are present for the entire auction and the auction is not a quick 2-minute thing like in-person auctions. In-person, you're much more likely to have that sort of flurry of excitement that you're wanting, but online auctions, whether on Wurm forums or elsewhere, are just not guaranteed to be that way. It's the nature of the beast.

Edited by MordosKull
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13 hours ago, MordosKull said:

One way or another, the item being auctioned goes for what it should; either close to or at market value or far above because someone REALLY wanted it - even if there are underhanded tactics going on behind the scenes to try to drive the price. Underhanded tactics can also leave the seller without a real buyer except for their alt or whoever was trying to help, thus no true sale, and now they're just stuck with their item at the end of the day.

 

As others have mentioned, jumping out there with a high bid can be the result of numerous factors. Maybe the bidder won't be available at auction close and they're offering their best bid all at once. Maybe the bidder is present but just wants to cut to the chase and get the item up where it needs to be quickly and stop watching a chain of tiny increment changes in price. Maybe it's just the bidder's best offer and they're putting it out there by choice whether present for auction close or not. 

 

I'm not sure why any of this would upset anyone

It seems like u are satified with what the current auction system can offer u, without upsetting, unlike the OP.

But the underhanded tactics can also attract a real buyer which got scammed by the seller with alts, although the underhanded tactics can also leave the seller without a real buyer except for their alt or whoever was trying to help. A high bid can be the result of numberous factors, including maybe the bidders are the seller alts using the underhanded tactics.


These number of posts made me questioning. Is there something i have missed? How well the current auction system handle the underhanded tactics?

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17 hours ago, Coach said:

It seems like u are satified with what the current auction system can offer u, without upsetting, unlike the OP.

But the underhanded tactics can also attract a real buyer which got scammed by the seller with alts, although the underhanded tactics can also leave the seller without a real buyer except for their alt or whoever was trying to help. A high bid can be the result of numberous factors, including maybe the bidders are the seller alts using the underhanded tactics.


These number of posts made me questioning. Is there something i have missed? How well the current auction system handle the underhanded tactics?

 

 

????

 

Nobody is forcing anybody to bid.....

 

I don't understand how anyone bidding is a 'scam.' 

 

If the price is too much, don't bid.

 

Even in real auctions what you are describing is 'possible' - running up the bid. With no mechanisms in place about it one way or the other.  Because, at the end of the day, the last bid is the fair market value. No one MUST bid more than the last bid. They can always opt not to bid.  If it is run up to more than you want to pay, you are out nothing.

 

"Fair Market Value: a selling price for an item to which a buyer and seller can agree."

 

Just because it isn't what YOU think is the 'right' price doesn't mean it isn't.  To the buyer, it was. And the buyer is the ONLY opinion that matters. NO ONE else's opinion matters - at all. It is NO ONE else's business.

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Bidding itself to run up the price and bidding with underhanded tactics behind the scences to run up the price are two different concepts.

 

Edited by Coach

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Sometimes the tactic of opening high is "firing a shot across the bow" to shake off some of the less interested players.

 

Wurms economy and auction system are functional, but not optimal. There are purposeful innefficiencies and opportunites as a result of the decentralized and ad hoc market.

 

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opinion incoming...

 

Since there is absolutely no way to know who is selling, who is bidding, and whether the actual auction transaction even ever occurs once the high bidder wins, the auction system via the forums is not and cannot be an accurate representation of what something is worth in Wurm.  Who is stopping an alternate forum account of the seller, or a friend from bumping up the bidding?  How do you know the person who bid 50s for something actually met with the seller and completed the transaction?  I know, they would get reported on the forums as a bad cookie, I get it.  But if they win their own auction using an alt, we would never know it.  Worst yet, if a few players went together to artificially inflate prices by cross-bidding on each other's auctions, well we would never know that either.  Simply put, Wurm Online needs an in-game auction where players can auction items (for a small fee) and the game keeps track of bids, wins, mailings, and and payouts directly from one game bank to another and from one ip address to another.  At least there would be some validation that what is seen in the forums truly represents what Wurmians are willing to pay.

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I"m not sure if any of you have been to an auction in real life. The last one I went to, as a bidder, you have to 'register' first. You have to pay a fee ($50 cdn. for the last auction I was at) to get a 'bidding paddle' with a number on it. This is done to ensure there is minimal hanky panky. This way if anyone wants to bid up an auction, it costs them money before participating. It's a pretty good deterent, unsure if that could be applied here.

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On 8/7/2022 at 2:08 AM, Sheffie said:

If you think that people are using underhand tactics to try to drive up prices for their friends' auctions, then by all means contact the staff with a specific complaint.

 

 

If we don't have good reason to believe otherwise, we have to assume that when a player bids X amount for item Y, they are actually happy to pay X. It is very difficult for any observer to say, "but Y isn't worth X!!!!" when someone is apparently willing to pay X.

 

Also, @wipeout, your long post about prices seemed inconsistent. You talked about a rare bone that receives only 3 bids and sells for 70s, and another one that receives many bids with smaller increments and eventually sells for a higher price. Later in the same post, you say that the auction with more bids gives a better indication of the "true price". I'm pretty sure that you also said these big bids were pushing prices up. Can you maybe go back and make sure that your post actually says what you wanted to say? Do you believe that a rare bone is worth 70s, more, or less?


TLDR: Price fluctuations have increased due to bidding practices changing over the last 2 years resulting in higher prices across the board and inability to price check anything by using auction data because it has become to inconsistent.

I guess i need to give more specific examples

An auction where 2-3 people bid and then falls silent shows 1 thing the price has gone past the point where others feel worthwhile to bid on said item if it is a niche item its understandable not many would want it but something like a strange bone or a drake set they are wanted by many but the end result is that auction shows nothing other then the last bit was to high no one else wanted to bid for it thus the price must be lower but by how much we wont know just looking at auctions like that because the price jumps are to big.
The other thing that this does is it scares most people into not bidding as why try to do so when someone will almost instantly outbid with a giant price hike just to get that item.

An auction where there are dozens of bids being placed(even if its between 2 people) and its price steadily increases before it dies out shows either of 2 things 1. the other person bidding has run out of funds to give or 2 the items worth if reached and the other person isn't willing to bid more then the last bid posted

In example one no matter how many times this happens finding the true value is going to be hard if this is all you have to go by because the price will be inconsistent and bidding volume is low so no real useful anything can be gained from it when it comes to using those topics as past reference points for price checks or other things.

In example 2 you get a lot of bidders making small increases and with enough topics like this finding the right price for an item is easier for everyone as we have a reference to past topics that we can look at and find a decently accurate price, say there are 10 bones sold over 7 months and their price range falls within 20 silver of each other with lowest being 57s and highest being 77s with the average of 70 you know that you could sell the bone for 70 in a wts or lower if you want it gone quick ir auction starting 60 if you want to try for it to go higher and you got time.

The difference between few bids across many auctions with giant price jumps vs many bids across many auctions with smaller bids is the confidence that the 2nd one creates in finding an accurate value of an item resulting in a more friendly market where someone cant just scam someone out of a bone by using specific topics were it didn't sell well and call the 2 topics that had few posts as outliers and just friends trading with friends to increase the price.

What it comes down to in the end is that in my opinion watching the auctions over the last 2 years a lot more of them have started to have really big price fluctuations on items because the quantity of bidders has gone down due to a small group of people doing crazy price hikes on items they are bidding on.
Where as over the time prior to that auctions often had lots of bidders as people bid smaller number increases as they typically wanted to save as much money as they could so do min increases and bid often in hopes your pocket is bigger then the other person's pocket, that shift away from lots of bids to a few big bids has meant that prices have gone up overall across the board even on useless items in hopes that people are crazy enough to buy them.

In the end the result of this is that prices are going up for items specifically rarity related ones while the amount of bidders is going down leading to a somewhat barrier of entry where items that were once between 5-25s are now starting at 25s and going up to 40-60 yet sometimes going up to 1.5g at random for no real reason other then friends posting on it or someone really wanting it.

Anyway before i go in circles

We are seeing more of example 1 with big bidding increases(sometimes 50+s in 1 bid although rarely) then we do of example 2 yet example 2 is what creates more confidence in prices over time.
The other thing that also is happening that i havent touched on in this reply but just had to mention it again is first bid doing double asking price or more tactic it doesn't make sense beyond trying to prevent people from bidding on something you want.

But hey that's just what i observe by watching the auctions over years now that the last 2 years wurm's auctions have gone crazy with practices that are not healthy leading to price increases across the board to create a barrier of entry so big that most people wont be able to ever partake into it leading to less bidders leading to less price info on items thus lower confidence in it and creating a wilder priced market where 1 day a supreme forge can go for 1.51g and the other day for 45s(no it doesn't matter that one is regular stone the other is slate their function is the same and both can be created just as easily) to name a more recent example of this.

Edited by wipeout

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As a player who has held dozens of auctions, for both low- and high-ticket items, I will toss my two copper in.

 

First off, about me: I mainly play solo, have no close friends in game, belong to no alliance. No one has any reason to 'bid up' items at my auctions. Yet I am regularly surprised at the outcomes: sometimes items go for far less than I expected, sometimes far more (like a rare chess queen that went for 20s, to take a recent example). And, for what it's worth, I will say this to try to dispel some of the bad faith in this thread: after every auction I have run, the item was indeed sold to the final bidder for the amount of the final bid.

 

On further reflection, though, I am not really all that surprised by auction outcomes. They fluctuate for a variety of reasons. (1) The Wurm auction community is small and players dip in and out of it. Pick the wrong week to run an auction, and your few potential buyers might be away from game and overlook it. Pick the right week, and a multi-way bidding war may ensue. (2) Wurm auctions do not closely resemble real-world auctions, but they are strongly affected by the real-world economy. A lot of players have a moderate to high real-life income, with a monthly entertainment budget of hundreds of USD or EUR. They may think nothing of throwing some of this cash at unique or semi-unique items when they come up at auction. They reason: 100 silver for this supreme whatever that I may never get a chance at again, or dinner for two at a restaurant this Saturday, hmm . . . I'll take the supreme whatever. (3) This is a game and people are here to enjoy themselves. I have seen players outbid rivals as a flex or to prank a friend or because they are caught up in the thrill of the moment (been there myself). Frankly, they do not care about the historical prices or other players' perceptions of what prices 'should be'; they just want to have fun.

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Personally I often start auctions at 1s because I'd rather the bidders set the price but as a result its almost necessary that someone bumps rares by 10s at the start otherwise you'd need pages and pages of bids, and there are also just more people who try to quickly get to their limit because its what they are willing to pay so why not offer it.

I think the bigger difference with nfi auctions is the scarcity of rares compared to the old cluster along with normal fluctuating demand, when two people on nfi with some coin spare want something specific and it comes up they often will bid it up over the "normal" price, which is to be expected.

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Fun fact. Wikipedia shows over 30 variations on the basic idea of an auction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auction

 

Perhaps this thread should be retitled, "Do people really not agree how auctions are supposed to work anymore?"

Edited by Sheffie
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As someone who frequently pays well over the outdated "value" of items, I gotta shoot all of you down, you need a dose of reality and I do apologize for wording it so harshly 

 

SFI's economy is already dead

 

So many of you are so removed from reality I often think you only sell what you have and have never bought anything 

 

Buying basic materials like weapons and building material, I've gone through periods of advertising in trade chat for days without anyone messaging me.

 

I've tried buying on forums which can end in waiting days, weeks, and in one case months, to recieve an order at "value". Which is no fault of those merchants mind you, they're overworked.

 

The second I offer to buy those same materials at twice the value on trade? I get 4-5 people messaging me instantly to sell

 

Thats just common goods

 

Labor, you guys undersell yourselves so much I always pay well over what people charge. I had an entire boat canal dug through my deed and the total charged cost was like 5s, it took three people well over a week. So no, I forced them to take more than they asked and ended up spending around 1g on the entire project

 

Rare items you will see people search for months on end to find, some I've been waiting on for over year to even get a chance on. 

 

But guess what, you guys are blaming the wrong people. I don't want to pay that much for items and work, but I have to if I want to get them this century

 

It's supply and demand, the prices are high because we have high demand and low supply in nearly everything. Yet so many vendors sell themselves short to keep to prices that were good 10 years ago. 

 

Don't get me started on sorcery items, by all means any other game would have a player riot over how rare they are for the uselessness of them and the lack of player base

 

I do believe one solution is opening SFI and NFI to each other, cause guess what, NFI needs high level players to even out their economy, and SFI desperately needs low level players to even out there's.

 

Again I apologize for the harshness, but it frustrates me when someone spends an entire day making something like a rowboat and sells themselves short and goes "eh, 1c". It also frustrates me that items I could have gotten dirt cheap 5 years ago, cost an arm and a leg now

 

 

 

 

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