Tempering

[Eleraan 354]

From what I have been told the reason tempering sucks so much is water being always 100Ql is treated as 50ql for tool effectiveness.  Please let us use oils for tempering so we can go off the oil's quality for tool quality. 

 

This always comes to mind anytime I have to reimp tools. 

[Legios 497]

Makes sense, I know wurm does not like making sense but sometimes you just got to hold it and pry it's mouth open and put some sense in there.

[Raybarg 442]

I like this idea. Water is free and unlimited. Making oil requires resources, skills and work... and could behave like all other tools; use the oil QL and maybe even allow us to enchant the oil with Coc/Woa/Botd that would affect the tempering action.

[Stinboi 367]

Thats a terrible idea, to make high ql oil you need 2 high skills, forestry/farming and beverage.

For me personal it wouldnt matter, but it will make it harder to start for new players.

 

I will rather that water can scale after required skill needed to imp, for example if you imping BS tools with 90 BS, water should work as its 90 QL,

[Eleraan 354]

Yes it requires skill. But if no changes are made to water and it works just the same as now. It has no impact on those that don't/can't make hq oil while letting us that can/want to do so. I'd rather use the barrels upon barrels of 90+ oil I have stored up than keep bashing my head with the current water only tempering.

 

I don't think they are going to give us skill scaling water for tempering. From what I was told long ago, the reason water only counts as 50ql was it was deemed too easy and there was no way to make us work for it. 

[Ohana 907]

In smithing the water isn't really used for QL at all. The "Ql" of your tempering is the item you are tempering.

That is also why coc/woa on water doesn't work for tempering. In tempering, enchants on the item you are tempering are used instead.

 

[Eleraan 354]

Interesting. So, as an item gets higher quality it counts as higher quality water? Both nice and annoying that it doesn't allow any way to get above the items quality. But is still better than I had been told in the past.  Hmm Still wonder why tempering seems to suck so much. 

[Vorticella 958]

8 hours ago, Stinboi said:

Thats a terrible idea, to make high ql oil you need 2 high skills, forestry/farming and beverage.

 

I agree with this. It's tedious to grind beverages even though it's a lot easier now than it used to be. Having to train up beverages in order to make oil for smithing would take tedious to a new level, especially for the generalist players who like to do things for themselves.

[Raybarg 442]

45 minutes ago, Ohana said:

That is also why coc/woa on water doesn't work for tempering. In tempering, enchants on the item you are tempering are used instead.
 

This is half correct. Woa in the tempered item affects the tempering action timer. Circle of cunning does not affect the resulting skill tick.

I never had the opportunity to test Botd on this.

[Raybarg 442]

Just now, Vorticella said:

I agree with this. It's tedious to grind beverages even though it's a lot easier now than it used to be. Having to train up beverages in order to make oil for smithing would take tedious to a new level, especially for the generalist players who like to do things for themselves.

How would the fact that this suggestion change would not benefit you specifically due to your preferences (thus nothing would change for you and you could potentially go merrily on with your life..) be an argument against this change which would allow the potential new market for people who actually have all the skills and determinations to produce oil for other players to smith with because it sells because its better than water? On top of that the old crazy players who have topped every single of their skills to become even more juggernautish in the markets *grin*

Surely in perspective of market competition this suggestion is bad for everyone who does not want to make oil... but guess what? This suggestion is +1 for everyone who would like to make more oil due to it being more useful!

The remaining question is; Would this change be good for the game as is?

If we forget the player interactions and market competition and all that schenanigans... the disappointing thing about tempering action is, that every aspiring grandmaster smith has, at some point, been in CA HELP discussing the oddities and how Tempering action seems to be a drag when imping up to higher QL range. This is true with majority of smiths that gone as far as reaching approximately the half way of skill progression towards 100 skill. Resulting with each case the discussion, disappointment. Moaning of unfairness due to other skills are not impacted with this same 1/5 draggy action... even though they suffer from their own schenanigans like with carp and its subs, enchanted logs dont provide method of eternal enchant like smiths get with lump combining etc. In my case, I swallowed the disappointment about tempering long time ago, settling with the fact that each "toolset" in Wurm has one kind of drawback among one of the tools... well most of them do...

Would this "oil for tempering" feature then cause woodworkers come suggest that logs could be turned into "imp logs" which can be combined to provide base for eternal enchants? Or Harry Potterers come asking to be able to use a "pottery glove" that could be enchanted with woa+coc to provide effective QL and enchant powers to the Fux Moulder actions?

In TL;DR;
Potential benefit of this change for the game is solely based on the process and skills of making oil to make those skills and resource acquisitions potentially more diverse, interesting etc...
The selling point of this change is not to make smithing easier, although smiths based on their ability to produce good oils probably would welcome it and vote +1 on this suggestion solely based on that. Like me.

So mind you, I tend to type alot of text and I might have hidden some bias here. Although I consciously did my best to be rather objective.

[Finnn 3,321]

I'd rather not use oils...

Imagine the smithing.. farm cotton/corn or planter racks around the forge with fennel to make oils.. grind few side skills to make oil... just to watch it decay and deal with escape artist pegs, you'll end up making barrel rack and sealing small barrels or amphoras.. sealing kits lose ql with each use, pegs just vanish because wurmians are dumb to reuse them.. now you need bsb/crate with pegs.

 

In which world does any of that sound like good experience?

[Madnath 3,113]

-1 to using oils

+1 to a change to tempering to make it not suck

[Locath 533]

7 hours ago, Vorticella said:

I agree with this. It's tedious to grind beverages even though it's a lot easier now than it used to be. Having to train up beverages in order to make oil for smithing would take tedious to a new level, especially for the generalist players who like to do things for themselves.

 

I didn't read the OP as either/or solution. I assumed that oils would be added as an option to existing tempering with water, so, if someone doesn't feel like using oil for whatever reason, they could use water in unchanged mechanic as they do currently.

Oil could be an option for those who do want to manage few more things in their workshop?

[Yggdrasil 233]

15 hours ago, Vorticella said:

 

I agree with this. It's tedious to grind beverages even though it's a lot easier now than it used to be. Having to train up beverages in order to make oil for smithing would take tedious to a new level, especially for the generalist players who like to do things for themselves.

This is what makes it a good idea though

 

It incentives trade and rewards those who CAN make the high ql oils

[Stinboi 367]

12 hours ago, Yggdrasil said:

This is what makes it a good idea though

 

It incentives trade and rewards those who CAN make the high ql oils

Only problem is that this will for sure scare away more new players, considering how many that seems to start with smithering.

 

I take new players over new trade options any day.

[Stinboi 367]

However i do see where this is comming from and will give it a +1 as an addition to water and not replacement. 

[Yggdrasil 233]

3 hours ago, Stinboi said:

Only problem is that this will for sure scare away more new players, considering how many that seems to start with smithering.

 

I take new players over new trade options any day.

Let's not kid ourselves

 

You're not going to get to 50 blacksmithing and

 

A. Still be considered a new player in any fashion

 

B. Are still going to be unsure if you're wanting to continue playing wurm

 

I find it amazing how nearly every suggestion has players shooting it down saying it will scare off new players, while ignoring that the vast majority never leave the tutorial

[Lovelie 420]

32 minutes ago, Yggdrasil said:

Let's not kid ourselves

 

You're not going to get to 50 blacksmithing and

 

A. Still be considered a new player in any fashion

 

 

I mean, if oils are required for tempering instead of water, then there's absolutely no way a newbie will easily get anywhere near 50 skill, probably not even half of that while they're still considered a "newbie". I think it's fair of @Stinboito say that's way too much of an anti-newbie change, despite how much that reasoning gets thrown around in other cases. Like he said, blacksmithing is one of the first skills that newbies drift toward, and I highly disagree with making training "baby's first skill" more prohibitive in its early levels.

 

-1 for requiring oils

 

+1 for fixing/changing how water works while imping or adding oils as an option

Edited July 16, 2022 by Lovelie
clarity

[Eleraan 354]

I had no intentions of replacing water. Leave it working as is and add in Oils as an option that doesn't suck. 

 

Replacing water would be silly. Not only from a mechanics point but also from a historical point. Water has always been used to temper.  Oils have been used to temper for different reasons. 

 

In game I just want an option to not have a hellish time tempering.  If they want to improve water that would be great. But I don't see that happening.  I understand the devs logic that water is by default an endless source of 100ql resource.  

 

If they won't make water tempering better at least give us the option of using oils if we want to invest the time/money in making or buying it.  With the coffee beans anyone can get high beverage with just a little bit of pan filling. Also, there are now tons of high level beverage people.  Or you could just keep using the crappy water mechanics we have used for ever because anything that sounds like a QOL change be scary.  

 

Just because you don't want to put in the effort and would rather keep using the borked water temper rather than them add in the option of using oils is a poor reason to be against adding in oils as an OPTION. Not a replacement to water tempering. 

[Raybarg 442]

It never occurred to me that this suggestion would have been to replace water-tempering with oil-tempering because that is absolutely ridiculous idea. My support of this idea is to have an option to spend the effort of getting the oil and gain something from it; high QL oil determining tempering action QL (and as I suggested that enchants could work in Oil same as with any tool aswell.)

The idea sounds great for someone whose been close to 100 blacksmithing for almost 10 years; To make that special bucket of oil stored in LMC for those 99+QL imps.

Anyway, I did some googling about blacksmithing and oil quenching and it appears that its a thing in real life at most since around thousand years ago.. so hardly a medieval thing. At best the information available about blacksmithing and oil quenching is anecdotal and mostly the whale-oil period of our time in history is mostly suggested to be the earliest for blacksmith-oil-quenching although those opinions rely mostly on the idea of industrialization and oil use in steel manufacturing... But nothing I could google would suggest that oil-quenching would have been a medieval thing or more fitting to what is realistic in Wurm.

On the other hand, Oil quenching is apparently useful only when quenching very thin pieces because the property of oil quenching is to cool down the hot item slower than when quenching in water. There is also other historical information that all sort of liquids been tried as quenching medium for whatever properties of the steel or quenching was being sought for. One reason explained why its hard to pinpoint the historical use of oil quenching is that blacksmithing trade secrets were a real thing meaning if someone found a way to make very thin blades but extremely strong they would have not told anyone how and enjoyed the lucrative business of being able to make stuff that noone else could.

In a way, if we imagine that historically oil quenching would been used very early in human blacksmithing history, but being very well kept secret for only the best possible items, speaks for how Wurmians would probably utilize the oil quenching aswell; use the oil tempering actions only when imping at the silly ranges which are so slow that every little gain to make it easier/faster would be very welcome change.

[Stinboi 367]

6 hours ago, Eleraan said:

I had no intentions of replacing water. Leave it working as is and add in Oils as an option that doesn't suck. 

 

Replacing water would be silly. Not only from a mechanics point but also from a historical point. Water has always been used to temper.  Oils have been used to temper for different reasons. 

 

In game I just want an option to not have a hellish time tempering.  If they want to improve water that would be great. But I don't see that happening.  I understand the devs logic that water is by default an endless source of 100ql resource.  

 

If they won't make water tempering better at least give us the option of using oils if we want to invest the time/money in making or buying it.  With the coffee beans anyone can get high beverage with just a little bit of pan filling. Also, there are now tons of high level beverage people.  Or you could just keep using the crappy water mechanics we have used for ever because anything that sounds like a QOL change be scary.  

 

Just because you don't want to put in the effort and would rather keep using the borked water temper rather than them add in the option of using oils is a poor reason to be against adding in oils as an OPTION. Not a replacement to water tempering. 

I see, sorry for messing up your post :). thought at first you wanted to replace water.

This gets a thumb up from me atleast.

[topkos 504]

Bump, Bumpity, and another Bump.

No one is talking about replacing water.

Its about to make tempering not suck so much.

Creating a Market for those that can make High QL oils ( I can’t)

Also, Brine is used as a quenching material. (Salt + Water)

Please, and thank you

[Finnn 3,321]

rather not.. tie it to smithing itself or misc-items skill, 1's reasonable, other used when there's no other makes sense as template for actions with tool and no skill for it..

way more sense to utilize the two.. and way less annoyance, comapred to making tons of oils, remember metallurgy.. it's so tedious, it's rarely used;

let things scale normally with skill, there's rng to the action and difficulty of the action based on.. no reason to make it worse

 

 

 

[topkos 504]

23 minutes ago, Finnn said:

rather not.. tie it to smithing itself or misc-items skill, 1's reasonable, other used when there's no other makes sense as template for actions with tool and no skill for it..

way more sense to utilize the two.. and way less annoyance, comapred to making tons of oils, remember metallurgy.. it's so tedious, it's rarely used;

let things scale normally with skill, there's rng to the action and difficulty of the action based on.. no reason to make it worse

 

 

 

Don’t think there is much that can be done to make Tempering worse 🤣

[Finnn 3,321]

You consider turning a forge into forge-frier better?

Will be easier and better fit the game to tie it to any of the parent skills, everyone can grind them, base could be 50.. past 50, could start taking a buff for better odds.. changes nothing for the worse for anybody.. just improves the odds with time, if somebody wants better odds.. grind all sub skills, get higher parent, enjoy and be happy, no need for endless amount of oils.

 

If anything if there are oils or whetstone sharpening, etc.... let there be some higher damage buff for the weapons in turn of slightly lower durability(sharpen it too much it cuts with ease.. but also gets dull and needs maintenance sooner?)