AragornII

A suggestion to balance the game between free players and paying players

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On 6/25/2022 at 11:45 AM, Finnn said:

go to the store, see if you can get a bread w/o money.. it's subscription based game.

It’s advertised as free to play, not as a subscription based game. It’s simply not what it pretends to be. If it’s supposed to be paid, fine, set a reasonable price and have people buy the game after trying it (that can be as simple as having PVE be f2p with more balancing, while PVP is a DLC that you pay for, or the other way around), but don’t go advertise it as being  free and then claim ‘yeah, it’s subscription based, what did you expect?’

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On 6/25/2022 at 11:45 AM, Finnn said:

Alternative is aggressive microtransation model constantly tickling you with some new sparkles and shinies you just must have to be cool or keep a perk over other.(it's how other games use it)

A long, long time ago in the before-times, there were places to actually buy games. You went in there, bought a game for the price it was sold as and then, get this...you didn’t have to pay any more. Yes, really! No micro transactions. No ‘free games’ that weren’t free. As long as you didn’t somehow screw up the device to play on or lost all progress, the game was all yours. 

 

And this is good, in my opinion, because that way I can buy when it’s feasible to do so, without having to spend nearly 100 euros every year, whether my finances allow it or not. Wurm Online is the best game I’ve ever seen and honestly, I’d happily buy it like that as a gift to myself or others, but I can’t afford to constantly buy premium in combination with, y’know, RL stuff.

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, MordosKull said:

I agree - that's an extreme situation if you're going to potentially lose your real life home over a game or $8.83...

The way you’re wording it implies that the game is only 8,83, like you pay that, you get to enjoy the entire game. In reality the game is 8,83 a month, meaning that it costs 96 to play a year, and similar annual prices can cost people their house. Yes, a 100 euros can make that much of a difference (and 96 is only 4 euros less, so having those 4 euros more won’t make much of a difference). That’s not that extreme. Being willing to sacrifice your house for a game and saying that other people should do that too or they don’t like the game, that’s extreme.

Edited by AragornII
To clarify things

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You can still buy games. Just not ones with server upkeep and development updates, even slow ones.

 

There is a cost to online games so comparing them to my old Mario on Nintendo is a bit apple's and oranges.

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2 minutes ago, Eleraan said:

You can still buy games. Just not ones with server upkeep and development updates, even slow ones.

Why not? This is a sincere question. If they set a price that would cover the cost and allow them to pay their devs, well, considering the quality of the game it won’t take much to convince people to buy it. A short demo or something, hell, even offer them the option of current premium or paying the price. Considering the amount of hardcore fans this game has, I see no reason why they wouldn’t buy the game, meaning there’s virtually no risk of losing out on money.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/23/2022 at 8:42 PM, Davih said:

There is literally a section of this forum called "suggestions"

You do realize you’re in that part, right? It just sounded like you aren’t entirely aware of that.

Edited by AragornII
I thought my first response was a bit rude

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38 minutes ago, AragornII said:

Why not? This is a sincere question. If they set a price that would cover the cost and allow them to pay their devs, well, considering the quality of the game it won’t take much to convince people to buy it. A short demo or something, hell, even offer them the option of current premium or paying the price. Considering the amount of hardcore fans this game has, I see no reason why they wouldn’t buy the game, meaning there’s virtually no risk of losing out on money.

There is Wurm Unlimited.

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On 6/24/2022 at 9:35 PM, MordosKull said:

I'm not well versed on how wurm is advertised, but it should be advertised as "free to try up to xyz". If it's not, that's certainly deceptive.

I think this is the main issue here. When a game is advertised as "free to play" then that is what's expected. Most new players cruise along until they realize they need to pay premium at least once to go any further and continue to pay if they really want to get good. Many just quit at this point. And yes you can forage like mad and sell bulk items to earn in game coins to pay that premium but most new players don't know that. In fact "How do you earn coin/money here?" is the number one question I get asked. They are often under the impression that they can make stuff and sell it to the in game traders/merchants for coins like most other games, not that they need to sell to other players via trade chat or the forums. This does not appeal to most players, certainly not ones who already have it in their head that it said it was "free to play", only to find that they now have to spam mats then beg and barter with other players just to scrape up enough coins to pay to play. And then they realize they will have to continue to do so as long they want to stay premium on in game coins. It's at this point that even more of them quit. A change in the advertising could go a long way to clarifying this. They may not be so ready to just quit if they know upfront what they are in for. And it could also stop wasting the time of those who truly cannot afford it so they can move on to games that they can actually play for free. I'm not saying I wouldn't want it to be easier to play for free in Wurm, in fact I would be overjoyed by that since more people would be able to play, but then I also live in reality and know better.

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9 hours ago, AragornII said:

Why not? This is a sincere question. If they set a price that would cover the cost and allow them to pay their devs,

 

That price is the subscription itself. Are you suggesting a single-payment upfront life time subscription here?

 

9 hours ago, AragornII said:

well, considering the quality of the game it won’t take much to convince people to buy it. A short demo or something, hell, even offer them the option of current premium or paying the price. Considering the amount of hardcore fans this game has, I see no reason why they wouldn’t buy the game, meaning there’s virtually no risk of losing out on money.

 

But if they wouldn't lose out on money then it wouldn't save the players any money. Only, they'd have to come up with it in one go, instead of paying it over the years. That seems much worse. And if you can't afford a subscription then you *certainly* can't afford this.

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9 hours ago, garforl said:

There is Wurm Unlimited.

Wurm Unlimited seems to be a entirely different game from Wurm Online. Sure, the idea of making your own server is cool, but I want to play Wurm Online, not make my own server. That’s simply not my thing. I appreciate the suggestion though!

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Personally I think there is only 1 restriction that should be lifted for F2P players.

  • A player must have 20.1 mind logic to command the large cart.

By changing this to 20 or 19.99 I think free players pretty much still have the freedom to do most things in wurm. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Katrat said:

I think this is the main issue here. When a game is advertised as "free to play" then that is what's expected. Most new players cruise along until they realize they need to pay premium at least once to go any further and continue to pay if they really want to get good. Many just quit at this point. And yes you can forage like mad and sell bulk items to earn in game coins to pay that premium but most new players don't know that. In fact "How do you earn coin/money here?" is the number one question I get asked. They are often under the impression that they can make stuff and sell it to the in game traders/merchants for coins like most other games, not that they need to sell to other players via trade chat or the forums. This does not appeal to most players, certainly not ones who already have it in their head that it said it was "free to play", only to find that they now have to spam mats then beg and barter with other players just to scrape up enough coins to pay to play. And then they realize they will have to continue to do so as long they want to stay premium on in game coins. It's at this point that even more of them quit.

Exactly. It’s very difficult to hold onto premium through trading alone, and for obvious reasons it’s not exactly encouraged. But I think a lot less people would quit if their skills could get above 20, just slower than the premium players. Or at least that skills grinded in premium don’t decay back to 20 when you don’t play premium.  

Quote

 

A change in the advertising could go a long way to clarifying this. They may not be so ready to just quit if they know upfront what they are in for. And it could also stop wasting the time of those who truly cannot afford it so they can move on to games that they can actually play for free.

Exactly. That way, newbs wouldn’t expect a free game and get a subscription based one; they’d expect a subscription based game and decide for themselves if they can pay that and, after playing, if they think it’s worth 96 a year, assuming current prices. But I also think it could be at least paired together with a offer to pay the whole game for one price, so that people can choose to pay for the game or pay in increments.

 

Quote

I'm not saying I wouldn't want it to be easier to play for free in Wurm, in fact I would be overjoyed by that since more people would be able to play, but then I also live in reality and know better.

Well, I mean, the makers do need money to make a excellent game like this  🤷‍♂️ so getting rid of the money aspect would hurt the game overall, but that doesn’t mean f2p and premium can’t be more balanced, while still keeping premium a tempting but not forced offer.

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29 minutes ago, AragornII said:

Wurm Unlimited seems to be a entirely different game from Wurm Online. Sure, the idea of making your own server is cool, but I want to play Wurm Online, not make my own server. That’s simply not my thing. I appreciate the suggestion though!

 

You don't have to run your own server, there are many public servers as old ad WU itself.

 

 

You CAN play the game for free. I have several allies who have never paid real money for their premium and are playing for a decade. You CAN pay for your premium with ingame silvers. This is the free model.

You do NOT have to spend real money on subscription and many people are playing it that way.

 

Think this way: If you can and want to pay using your credit card instead of earning it in game, it's an option added to the free model which, for you, is the core subscription payment method. Paying on the website is an optional, convenient method to achieve the same.

 

At current price, WO is cheaper than pretty much any other MMO out there, with a hand full of exceptions amongst thousands of games available.

 

The "free" part in product description is not deceiving, it is a fact, people are playing for free and are premium. This isn't rocket surgery.

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@AragornII
Wurm Unlimited is a one time buy version of Wurm Online. It does not get updates as there is no income in that for the Wurm Online owners: Codeclub AB and Game Chest Group AB.
It is the same game pretty much, except it is several years old and has not gotten updates that WO got.
Instead WU server owners take in money to fund their servers in various ways.
People create mods for WU also, some that are simular to the updates WO gets.
If you want to pay one time then WU is the game you should purchase.

Wurm Online is still a game beeing developed after almost 20 years, this takes real cash to do.
Many players have played for years and years purely on in game cash.
The rest of us support the game owners by paying prem and upkeeps with real cash so they can keep this game evolving.
The best part of this game is that it actually keeps evolving.
It wont be AoE2 forever.

Chars skills are under the following skills: Body, mind and soul. Those you get to keep up to 30 when you go unpremed (and stay unpremed).
This was introduces in the QoL updates prior to the Wurm Online launch on Steam.
If you don't have 30 in skill at the time you go unpremed, they wont magically rise to 30 when you prem again.
You get back to the chars skills level you had when you went unpremed.

 

The other skills you normally have to at least gain one skill tick in for them to bump back to where they were when you went unpremed. (ie: you have to use the skill for it to go back up)
You are spreading wrong information on how the prem and skills works. Stop that.

 

 

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5 hours ago, AragornII said:

It’s very difficult to hold onto premium through trading alone, and for obvious reasons it’s not exactly encouraged.

 

I'm guessing the "obvious reasons" are that you think it doesn't make the devs money. If so, that's not true. Silver spent on subs is sourced from the web shop and sunk when the sub is paid. This actually makes the devs more real life money than directly paid subs.

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7 hours ago, AragornII said:

Or at least that skills grinded in premium don’t decay back to 20 when you don’t play premium.

Sorry, but that would lead those who have high skills to then stop paying premium but still have all the advantage high skills brings, like making decent coin selling their particular service.

 

I'm still fine with the system as it stands now. I'd be ok with lowering the ability to drive a large cart down to 20 though, but not the ability to ride a horse. The game is incredibly well priced for the amount of depth in the game and the continued support and development by our dedicated but small dev team. Quit trying to get out of supporting the best game I've ever played ya cheap ######s.

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6 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

The game is incredibly well priced for the amount of depth in the game and the continued support and development by our dedicated but small dev team.

^This

 

Not to mention that most, if not all other MMOs out there won't even let you log in once you stop paying the sub.

Oh, but before you can start paying the subscription, in most cases you first have to pay for the game itself which might or might not include some premium time for 2 weeks or a month in that price.

 

Here we get the client for free, we get to play it for unlimited time for free, we can put that time to good use and earn to pay the subscription from within the game, without ever reaching for the wallet. If we stop paying in game we STILL can play the game for free and it's somehow deceiving to put the word "free" on the box?

 

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10 minutes ago, Locath said:

^This

 

Not to mention that most, if not all other MMOs out there won't even let you log in once you stop paying the sub.

Oh, but before you can start paying the subscription, in most cases you first have to pay for the game itself which might or might not include some premium time for 2 weeks or a month in that price.

 

Here we get the client for free, we get to play it for unlimited time for free, we can put that time to good use and earn to pay the subscription from within the game, without ever reaching for the wallet. If we stop paying in game we STILL can play the game for free and it's somehow deceiving to put the word "free" on the box?

 

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I wouldn't call it deceiving, it's more of a bad choice to call it free.

Creating several thousands of planks/bricks in your first days is an awful gameplay cycle.

Same for foraging, It all takes ages with -20 skill.

So yes, this is all possible but you don't go tell a new player to go do this 1 task for 10-20 hours (wild guess), it's normal that many free players quit when getting told to do this.

Just call it a trial, it's pretty exactly that.

But yeah, I agree, this game is cheap when you compare it to other mmo's.

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8 hours ago, Lisimba said:

That price is the subscription itself.

No. A price is a price, like 1,99 for a newspaper. A subscription is paying a set price in advance to get that newspaper delivered every day/week/month/year. Those two are by no means the same. 

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19 hours ago, MordosKull said:

Exactly Finn.   How is $8.83 per month a debate here for unlimited/uncapped play? That's practically nothing.

 

I am glad it’s practically nothing to you. If I could afford it, I would. Unfortunately, it’s not practically nothing, as I’ve repeatedly explained. At this point, it would be really helpful if you could tell me if you actually read what I write. (Sincerity mode)

19 hours ago, MordosKull said:

 

It can be free too if you just produce enough in game to come up with 10 silvers. AND you get a sleep powder each month.

 

Which, from what I’ve seen, is exceedingly difficult - partially because the prems can make the same products I can, except faster and in bigger batches. I’ll do it, but I still see no reason to keep a clearly unbalanced and deceptively advertised system in place instead of balancing the game without devaluing or removing premium (see my post for how I think that will work and why premiums will still have the advantage). 

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19 hours ago, MordosKull said:

Like Lisimba said, your skills go right back to what they were once you prem up. You do not need to grind them back. Just come up with silvers in game or $8.83 irl

According to what I’ve read, the skills slowly decay back to 20. Do you have a source to prove this is incorrect?

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4 minutes ago, AragornII said:

According to what I’ve read, the skills slowly decay back to 20. Do you have a source to prove this is incorrect?

 

There is no skill decay in Wurm, no matter whether you're premium or not. If you re-prem your skill goes back to what it was without any penalty.

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1 minute ago, AragornII said:

According to what I’ve read, the skills slowly decay back to 20. Do you have a source to prove this is incorrect?

Skills do not decay. When you rejoin and reprem they go back to what they were. Skill decay was something old that was removed a long time ago (Longer than the Freedom servers have been up). I rejoined after a 4-year hiatus and all I had to do was rebuy premium to get my skills back.

 

It would be nice to give some other options to non-premium players. Being able to ride a large cart and horse would be a great way to allow them to explore and see all wurm has to offer. I do think there are plenty of ways to make in game currency to fund for premium. A rare tool (on SFI) is going for 4s+, depending on quality, enchants, etc. If you get a supreme tool that's a few months of premium right, there. But you also have bulk materials which you can make quite easily. Yeah, it takes some time, but it is still a viable option. I think limiting the skill gain is a little ridiculous. Some of these skills are hard enough to grind and making it harder would discourage new players. 

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9 hours ago, Lisimba said:

But if they wouldn't lose out on money then it wouldn't save the players any money. Only, they'd have to come up with it in one go, instead of paying it over the years. That seems much worse. And if you can't afford a subscription then you *certainly* can't afford this.

Let’s say (as you seem to assume) that they’ll have to pay some outrageous price in one go. The advantage of that, however, is that it’s a onetime big splurge that I can save up for. So I can buy the game when times are good, and have access to the game even when times are bad. Currently, I’d have to pay regardless of if I can actually afford to. How is that supposed to be the better choice?

 

Plus, with a bit more honest advertising, keeping the current premium, people can still choose to pay 8.88 a month OR buy the game. It’s not either/or, folks. The options can coexist. So, let’s say a newbie goes ‘whelp, that’s a lot of money for a game’, they can try it out for those 8,88 euros and decide if they’d rather keep paying that every month or if they want to save up and buy the game. And since most people here think it’s nothing, subscription would still happen. Nothing is lost, the only difference is that there’s options and that they’ll have to be more honest in their adds.

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2 minutes ago, brattygirl said:

I think limiting the skill gain is a little ridiculous. Some of these skills are hard enough to grind and making it harder would discourage new players. 

Perhaps that wasn’t my best idea. I was just thinking about a way to give premium players a advantage in terms of skill without having the hard cap. Do you have a alternative for free players?

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