Mino_Pressingbuttons

Working as intended?

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Posted (edited)

Working as intended? Why is LiBila traveling to a tile we already occupy?

 

20220623023911_1.jpg

Edited by Mino_Pressingbuttons
Correct spelling error

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Posted (edited)

This is a clearer picture. What we want to know is why Libila has not won the scenario even though Libila is on the home tile with enough collectibles? 

AYq65NV.png

 

Edited by Anglomango

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Posted (edited)

IF Mag can fight and win on home tiles then he can win EVERY scenario if directed there because he is stronger (and that will snowball him stronger).
= players must join MR to participate in winning
= 90% of players join MR (other 10% mad AF)
= no opposition
= no pvp
= trully dead server. 
RIP

Edited by Omar

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Just give lib the win so we can get a new scenario, bringing enough collectibles to your home tile has given you instant wins before 

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So magranon just defeated libilia in our already won scenario…

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You cannot win with an enemy on your home tile from a quick peek at the code, so does not seem like a bug. Go chase after mag he will be weak after the fight.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Darklords said:

You cannot win with an enemy on your home tile from a quick peek at the code, so does not seem like a bug. Go chase after mag he will be weak after the fight.


He is still a lot stronger, always is...    you should know that. It's been broken for years 



Or I just quit the game because I don't want to join MR. It's clearly broken. Mag can win every scenario, just direct Mag to the home tile of anyone that will collect the tokens first, easy.

Edited by Omar

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1 minute ago, Omar said:


He is still a lot stronger, always is...    you should know that. 

Or I just quit the game because I don't want to join MR. It's clearly broken. Mag can win every scenario.

The flaw to him being there is you respawn next to him and he is damaged from the last fight for awhile. Balance wise we are open to suggestions if the feeling is one god need some kinda toning down or buffs to others.

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4 minutes ago, Darklords said:

The flaw to him being there is you respawn next to him and he is damaged from the last fight for awhile. Balance wise we are open to suggestions if the feeling is one god need some kinda toning down or buffs to others.


Even if they were fairly balanced a god can snowball if they are stronger and can do this.      Stronger = can camp enemy home tiles = more mission doing players join the stronger side = stronger. 

I suggest as soon as a god hits their home tile they win. And undo the last move so Lib can win. 

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@darklords, this has not been the case before. We have won soon as we touch our home, same for them. Has there been a ninja patch?

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Yeah this does seem a bit off. Is there a better explanation for or some more ideas how this happened?

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Posted (edited)

I had wondered the same as posted here, even made a ticket ingame because I thought Valrei was stuck (Lib not updating their target after moving, could use clearer messaging!). CM responded this is intended behavior, after consulting devs, basically same as Darklord said above - Libilia was waiting for the tile to become clear before winning the game - which is fair I guess, gives more options to intervene besides running after the god.

 

As far as this mechanic is concerned, I think its fair to call it a design decision, it doesn't favor anyone, anyone can be in either position of the mechanic.

 

As far as the current scenario is concerned (and I'm playing for Mag, just for the record) I'd have preferred Libilia win instantly and start fresh, because now we are going home with Mag, and Fo is likely camping our home, and Lib may catch up and kill Mag before. Lots of risk, plenty of opportunities to lose, long way ahead, draws out the scenario unnecessary for my taste, but that doesn't make the mechanic unfair.

 

As far as Magranon being "slightly stronger" is concerned ... yes it feels like he is, but its still a dice roll at the end of the day, we could just as well have lost - this has happened before enough times already, playing Mag's side doesn't make it a guaranteed success. In fact, most of the times we are just winning scenarios because enemy kingdoms don't take Valrei as serious as we do and aren't working on their missions when they should. In fact, Lib could have reached her home tile before us reaching it and getting the instant win, had BL put more effort into Valrei.

 

If devs are going to touch the balancing I'd suggest they make themselve a tool to simulate lots and lots of combat to see how balanced it _really_ is. People are biased, including myself, and always recognize failure higher than success - thats just how people work - without statistics you are not going to see the truth, and statistics need large numbers, so this isn't doable by players (unless someone extracts the code from WU and builds a simulator and tries to figure out how to balance better). If they are doing a rebalance I request the devs doing their homework so they have confidence in their change, and not do it solely on player suggestions, because any such suggestion will inherently be biased to themselves.

 

> this has not been the case before. We have won soon as we touch our home, same for them. Has there been a ninja patch?

 

It has been the case before I think, after having this whole discussion it started feeling familiar. Unfortunately its not easy to find any logs about it since there are no keywords to search for. Anyways, having the home tile camped is a very rare edge case so it doesn't happen often. Instant wins are normal, yes, but usually the tile is empty. Without evidence to back it up I'd say this has always worked this way, the explanation seems reasonable. Anyone who has technical knowledge is free to check the code of WU by the way - (it is not encrypted/obfuscated and free to download without having to buy the game, explained on the wiki how to do it, of course you need to know how to unpack it and read it so you do need technical knowledge)

 

> Yeah this does seem a bit off. Is there a better explanation for or some more ideas how this happened?

 

IMHO the explanation is perfectly reasonable. What do you think is bad?

 

> Even if they were fairly balanced a god can snowball if they are stronger and can do this.      Stronger = can camp enemy home tiles = more mission doing players join the stronger side = stronger. 

 

Camping is not reliable. Combat rolls aren't either. When you camp you spend about the same time off-home as on-home unless you intentionally avoid doing missions vs. spamming missions, and then there will always be that one bad mission that ruins your tactic.

 

> Stronger = can camp enemy home tiles = more mission doing players join the stronger side = stronger

 

I have not seen one single player join MR because of Valrei. Most people, coming from pve, don't even know what Valrei is. MR is just as underpopulated as Defiance is. Its a dead server with a handful of people playing niche games, each kingdom filling different niches. We are passionate about Valrei, not because MR is stronger, but because its a nice metagame and gives purpose where most other activity are currently terribly unbalanced and mostly unplayable.

 

> Mag can win every scenario, just direct Mag to the home tile of anyone that will collect the tokens first, easy.

 

You apparently didn't even follow the last scenarios, which JK won several of without us being able to reach them in time. The main reason why MR wins most Valrei scenarios is that other kingdoms just don't do much. JK became active on Valrei recently for a while and quickly won those 2 or 3 scenarios with nothing we could do (I think in one of them we reached them but lost the combat roll). The most important aspect is the initial roll of chests, there were several scenarios in the past where Lib could have had a quick win but nobody bothered.

 

TLDR: I agree that valrei could be balanced better, the thread linked by Omar has lots of valid points, but I don't like the way this particular thread of discussion is going, because its neither productive nor looking for fair balancing

Edited by Gavaldor
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LOL, mag is stronger.. yes, mag is strong as there always been MR players doing missions and scenarios over the years to make him strong. Asking to nerf Mag is the same as me asking to nerf 15 year old no life grinder account skills as hes much stronger then me playing 6 months lmao. 

 

As for not winning upon hitting your home tile - its bullpoo as that has never been the case. You used to win as soon as you hit your home with enough items, didnt matter whos on the tile waiting. I bet its in the code now as code was changed about 18 months ago, same time as rewards been nerfed and ever since giving nothing or lumps at best if your not top participant, making tome fragments not existent no more

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Posted (edited)

[edit] initially misread above post, so editing that now for future readers, sorry - the general wording remains but I changed the adressing

 

> You used to win as soon as you hit your home with enough items, didnt matter whos on the tile waiting.

 

Nope, as far as Defiance is concerned you would be making that up from biased memory, I'm literally following every scenario and the last time someone was on a home tile was months ago. One time they moved off before we moved on it (by stopping doing missions to delay ourselves) so we didn't get to know what the rules were. I think another time we may actually have observed this very behavior but I forgot about it and can't find it in the logs, but the discussion feels familiar. Its very rare that the last step is on an occupied tile.

 

I get that Lib/BL players are angry but they have only yourself to blame for being lazy and stop doing missions (or blame the RNG if it gave them a mission they couldn't solve, but we are getting those all the time in MR, so nothing to call unfair). They were way ahead, before the server restart on tuesday we were locked in a traitor mission we couldn't solve for several days even though we tried, we went through several trap tiles which doubled our walking time multiple times - I'm surprised we reached them at all.

 

I agree with rebalancing being needed on basis of the points in the old thread linked by Omar, with proper statistical analysis to make sure its fair, and adjusting of the map to make sure everythings reachable in a fair way - but the thing happening in this thread so far seems to be mostly whining over a lost scenario (that isn't even lost yet), not productive discussion.

Edited by Gavaldor

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2 minutes ago, Gavaldor said:

you said something.

 

firstly, I am MR and always been for the last... emm.. well since 2012. Numerous times scenario was won reaching home tile with items even Wurm was camping it. In not talking for the last 4 months.. I'm talking about a ninja nerf they did to rewards and the rest about 18 months ago, when the valrei became fully bugged after some update and not functional for about 3 weeks, then they "fixed" it and it was never the same again.. Scroll back in twitter 2 years back worth of feeds and you will see that each scenario gave the winners 1 full, 6 frags and 3 lumps, depending if there were more than 10 participants..  What it gives now? 1 full and rest nothing, or 1 full and 5 lumps for people with 30k+ contribution? Anyways.. 

 

Balancing is done in scenario. Bring home to win not only items, but collect source too. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Well, sorry then for misunderstanding your previous post. I got annoyed by everyone bashing a mechanic thats inherently neutral and whining about the particular scenario. Should have read more carefully, my mistake.

 

I've got only Defiance to experience, since Valrei was enabled it was always this way for us, so I can't say what was before like you describe. According to the patch notes there should be more (but optional) reward tables and I agree I have never ever seen them drop. Unfortunately thats nothing I can report and we always had to assume we were "just unlucky" so I just ignore it and hope sometime something drops or someone reworks it. Valrei has been broken since release for us in a few different ways and the general understanding was that nobody dares to touch that code anymore.

 

So as far as this topic is concerned, I still think its a valid design decision and either way is "ok", instant win or letting the one on the tile fight it out, as its a neutral mechanic. I don't think there's a bug as far as this case is concerned. As mentioned before I agree that other things need fixing or rebalancing.

Edited by Gavaldor

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From what I see in the code this has been how it has been intended to work as far back as I can check, so if it allowed you to win with an enemy on your home tile that would have been the bug not this.

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Posted (edited)

@darklords If common practice have been bringing loot home has given you the win, regardless of what sits there.  So if you have "fixed" it. maybe update the code into the way it has been working?

Edited by feldoh

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6 hours ago, Omar said:


Even if they were fairly balanced a god can snowball if they are stronger and can do this.      Stronger = can camp enemy home tiles = more mission doing players join the stronger side = stronger. 

I suggest as soon as a god hits their home tile they win. And undo the last move so Lib can win. 

Is that why now Lib has lost the fight to mag... JK are leading the scenario? 

 

I do agree Mag is far over powered, any fight is balanced to mag with them being base standard stronger, as well as being home, next to a strength tile and access to more tiles in less moves. 

 

JK have a trap and a slow tile next to our home, so extremely limited move options from the start.

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Just now, feldoh said:

@darklords If common praxis have been bringing loot home has given you the win, regardless of what sits there.  So if you have "fixed" it. maybe update the code into the way it has been working?

Nothing was fixed or changed with this mechanic, the no enemies on your current tile to win check has existed in the code for over 7 years from what I can see.

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4 minutes ago, feldoh said:

@darklords If common praxis have been bringing loot home has given you the win, regardless of what sits there.  So if you have "fixed" it. maybe update the code into the way it has been working?

you got to beat the goal keeper to score

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30 minutes ago, Gavaldor said:

Valrei has been broken since release for us in a few different ways

 

I can bet that's because on Defiance you got a direct "copy-paste" code from Epic. Would explain why people complain Mag is too strong, as if you compare it just from the Defiance start 4 months ago, then it defo feels broken. On Epic god stats were built up over 10 years by each faction and MR being most active made the Mag stronger. Straight copy that code into defiance and you got stronger god to start with lmao. As for the rest - balancing will never work as long as there will be RNG. 2 items total spawn on scenario with 1 being a tile away from Lib? Ofc libila will win in 2 days, same would go for any other. A lot of scenario fates are determined at the very start when randomly items spawn..

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1 minute ago, Mino_Pressingbuttons said:

You were my hero >.>

 

4 minutes ago, Trash said:

you got to beat the goal keeper to score

 

4 minutes ago, Trash said:

you got to beat the goal keeper to score

 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Darklords said:

Nothing was fixed or changed with this mechanic, the no enemies on your current tile to win check has existed in the code for over 7 years from what I can see.

 

Does that include rewards mechanic? As I can dig out the proof if needed that it wasn't like it is now, yet, none of the patch notes ever mentioned anything about reworking valrei rewards

Edited by Skatyna

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