Madnath

The V-Files: The Rolls Are Out There

Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, Lethyria said:

The worse thing is that it also polls rarity before adding it to your queue so any "You are too busy" actions also consume your rare roll. At least from a brief readthrough]

I don't believe this to be true, if I understand what you're saying correctly. I dug through my logs and found countless instances where I over-queued actions, received the "You're too busy" message, and still landed a moi on the first action.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Synjor said:

I don't believe this to be true, if I understand what you're saying correctly. I dug through my logs and found countless instances where I over-queued actions, received the "You're too busy" message, and still landed a moi on the first action.

I think you misunderstand what I meant, if you queue 5 actions, filling your queue then click the button again 5 seconds later and get a "You're too busy" if a rare window started after the initial queue but before the one that doesn't fit in your queue you would waste a rare window. Its unlikely to happen too often since it would pretty much have to occur while filling up you queue exactly as it ends. It still seems bad to me though.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/25/2022 at 4:19 AM, elentari said:

Side note, how is everyone's affinity experience? Have they been stealth nerfed? I haven't gotten 1 affinity in the past 6 months...I think my character is really bugged since he's not getting moi's from mining , not been getting affinities even. Either that or the RNG might actually make me quit or take another long break. 

 

1 affinity that went to Soul on my way to 70 prayer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Gumbert said:

1 affinity that went to Soul on my way to 70 prayer.

It's just odd that I also have that 10% more affinity windows and 10% more rare windows from journal goals and doesn't feel like they work at all. Feels like the contrary more like it tbh. Wonder if those journal goals actually do the opposite and those "buffs" actually lower the chance for rare windows, both for affinities and Moi's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, elentari said:

It's just odd that I also have that 10% more affinity windows and 10% more rare windows from journal goals and doesn't feel like they work at all. Feels like the contrary more like it tbh. Wonder if those journal goals actually do the opposite and those "buffs" actually lower the chance for rare windows, both for affinities and Moi's.

 

The randomness and RNG have always been a major trouble in Wurm... and yet the devs still highly rely on it despite the countless issues we are still facing. In the hand it's a major issue of luck... and a large amount of us are not THAT lucky.

 

Another issue is the fact that Rolf said we should have one rare window per hours... but statistically, as proven by OR, we are closer to one every 2 hours or so... which also means that the game is either no longer working as intended by Rolf... or never was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or you just don't understand probability

 

RNG is a factor in every game out there, deciding its a problem in wurm is just wanting to have an issue with wurm, it's like being annoyed with fish because they're wet 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. will doing things in a separate window (like posting this) delete a rare window when I switch back to the game?

 

2. Will examine delete a rare window?

 

3. how about in game chat?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I might be way off on this, @Oblivionnreaver, or someone else smarter than me may be able to add clarity/confirm, but it’s my understanding that anything that increments either the ‘actions performed’ or ‘right click menus’ under the Interface statistics under Statistics (default keybind is F4) can consume a rare window.

 

So tabbing out and in/clicking back in/etc. shouldn’t, chatting shouldn’t, examine would, either via right click>examine (both a ‘right click menus’ action and an ‘actions performed’ action) or hotkey/double click (an ‘actions performed’ action).

Edited by nineol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Archaed said:

Or you just don't understand probability

 

RNG is a factor in every game out there, deciding its a problem in wurm is just wanting to have an issue with wurm, it's like being annoyed with fish because they're wet 

 

It is, but the way it is used matters a lot. It's like a spice, a bit of it can enhance things, sure. But a lot of it just screws over your dish.

 

One problem with RNG is that if you just do random rolls for an entire game population, which is by far the most used implementation, you end up with a "long tail" of people who have incredibly bad luck, which is frustrating for them, especially because there's also a tail of people who have incredibly good luck. For example, if you have one 10% chance each day of getting a widget, and there are 1000 people (and these numbers are approximate of course):

  • First day: 100 people get it, 900 don't.
  • Second day: 10 of the 100 people who got it yesterday got it again, 90 people who didn't have one yesterday did get one today. Also, 810 people still have nothing. (total population is 10 with 2 plus 90 with 1 first day plus 90 with 1 second day plus 810 with 0 = 1000)
  • Third day: one of the 10 people who got two now gets another, and has three total. They're accused of hacking by the 729 people that still have nothing.
  • Fourth day: someone might get their fourth today but with a population this size, chances are against it. There are likely to be more people who get their third. 90% of the people that had zero yesterday still get nothing, so 656 people are without.
  • Well, it keeps going.
  • Seventh day: now a week in, 478 have nothing, while some people have started showing off a curated collection. There is unrest on the forums.
  • Fourteenth day: 228 people with nothing.
  • 21th day: 209 people with nothing. There are starting to be people who have seven.
  • 28th day: 52 people with nothing. People complain their character is bugged.
  • Etc.
  • There's a reasonable possibility that one or two people still have nothing after two full months, if they haven't given up by then. That takes one-in-a-thousand bad luck, but with a thousand people someone's going to get that.

This would be a crappy and often unfun way of distributing said widgets.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, nineol said:

I might be way off on this, @Oblivionnreaver, or someone else smarter than me may be able to add clarity/confirm, but it’s my understanding that anything that increments either the ‘actions performed’ or ‘right click menus’ under the Interface statistics under Statistics (default keybind is F4) can consume a rare window.

 

So tabbing out and in/clicking back in/etc. shouldn’t, chatting shouldn’t, examine would, either via right click>examine (both a ‘right click menus’ action and an ‘actions performed’ action) or hotkey/double click (an ‘actions performed’ action).

 

"yeah it's anything that's right click menus or actions performed"

Confirmed by Silakka/OR.

 

He also requested I post Big Chungus which I declined.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 6/24/2022 at 2:25 AM, Madnath said:

[...]

  • Edit 1: I think I touched on it in the OP but just so we're sharing all the info we have, there have been a very few instances we saw where a rare roll was triggered during a queued imp, like you'd think the system would work before reading this. Now, these are incredibly rare, to the point where they likely make up 4% or less of the overall rare rolls that were counted.
    [...]

 

From my experience this is due to queuing multiple actions before all previous actions have finished.

Example with 20 mind logic (max. 3 queue):

Que 3 actions;

Finish two actions (one left in queue);

Que 3 actions (queue overflows; following the 'you are too busy' prompt);

Finish the third action (no rarity);

Finish the fourth action (first on second queue) with potential rarity;

Finish last two actions without rarity.

 

Whilst it may seem that the seemingly 'second' action after creating the second queue turned rare, it is actually the first action of the second sequence, as the action prior was already (still) running. Like what is described below:

 

On 6/25/2022 at 9:56 AM, Lethyria said:

I think you misunderstand what I meant, if you queue 5 actions, filling your queue then click the button again 5 seconds later and get a "You're too busy" if a rare window started after the initial queue but before the one that doesn't fit in your queue you would waste a rare window. Its unlikely to happen too often since it would pretty much have to occur while filling up you queue exactly as it ends. It still seems bad to me though.

 

And about this:

On 6/24/2022 at 8:19 PM, elentari said:

[...]

Side note, how is everyone's affinity experience?

[...]

RNG. Spent ten four years without a single affinity (of which 18 10 months prem) after which I got four in two weeks (two months ago).

EDIT: forgot about the 'recent' change in affinity gains four years ago.

Edited by Rishy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rishy said:

Spent ten years without a single affinity

Could this be because randomly gained affinities were only added 4 years ago?

Before that we all had one, beginning affi and only way to get more was in PvP, by killing and getting it from another player.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RNG is what most games are based on, saying RNG is bad game mechanic doesn't make much sense.
If you "actually" think that your character is bugged, and not as a joke/complaint just because you didn't get a 10% 28 times in a row, you just have poor understanding of statistics.

There might be a few expections where RNG goes too far, like... idk, the chances of making a fantastic item that are ridiculously low, i complained several times about that, i made about ~3000 rare items over the years.... and 0 fantastics, not even a dirt. While at the same time they keep getting spawned from staff for random nonsense/events and even randomly spread as decorations over starting towns (seriously wtf, lol)

More on topic, I'll add to the infos contained in this thread this tip about improving rare/supreme tools.
If you don't want to waste your moi while imping rare/supreme tools. Just get 2 tools with the same improving set, quickly queue up "imp-repair-imp-repair" non rare tool first, rare tool second , wait for the queue to end, repeat, that way you'll imp the rare tool aswell with 0 chances of wasting your moi on it, or even wasting them in general, as the total queue is shorter than 30secs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Rishy said:

From my experience this is due to queuing multiple actions before all previous actions have finished.

 

Yeah getting rare rolls when staggering the input has been posted here, in this instance we are talking specifically times where actions with the same input time together are giving that rare roll later in the queue. That's why it's an oddity to us currently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Davih said:

RNG is what most games are based on, saying RNG is bad game mechanic doesn't make much sense.

 

Misconception there.

 

Games are not based on RNG. Games are based on static mechanics that are at a later date, balanced by using RNG. 

 

Baldur's gate for instance had a lot of RNG but the core mechanics were static. You had for example a sword that did 1d8 damage. That's RNG. However to that you add static mechanics for example : your body strength, an enchant, a poison to the blade, perhaps a backstab if you're a thief, etc. 

 

RNG as @Lisimbasaid is a spice. If your main mechanic is RNG then you just end up with a shitty game like diablo immortal. 

 

And if your main mechanic is RNG then you gotta ask...is your RNG made to help the player or work against him? 

 

If it's working for the player, the only question is to balance out rewards.

 

If it's made to work against the player then we are entering gacha games / casino games/ diablo immortal type games where the RNG is sinister and psychologically devised to encourage the player to invest RL money to force the RNG to work in the player's favour. 

 

RNG in wurm tbh feels more often than not that it works against the player. Especially with these mechanics people have pointed out thus far. 

 

So the dumb question I can ask....where's the token I can buy to force a rare MOI to get a map? Oh, we have no such thing. 

 

But we can buy maps with RL money from people...ah I get it now (obviously by buying silvers). Answered my own question. Nevermind. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, there is currently no way to invest RL money to force the RNG to work in the player's favour, mostly just knowledge (like this thread proves).

Sure,  you can buy maps with silvers, but where those silver come from is not a reponsability of the game, if you consider the fact that current maps price are already low enough to make money on top of the cost, you really just need an initial investment of 2-3 silvers to start selling the loot (sleep powder + some common enough valuable things like compasses, good chess pieces, rare bone fragments). And i'm pretty sure that considering that maps are pretty easy to get, and people are already getting tired of running around to collect mediocre rewards, prices will go down to adjust a bit under the value of those possible valuables average value.

Real money becomes a part of this equation only if you really want it. Even in the rare cases where high quality tools that you can help you with RNG; you can buy them with silvers, and silvers aren't necessarely real money.


The only expection to this might be buying years and years of premium to get a few random (and probably useless) affinities, but you can also do that with silvers, it's just less efficient, and we are really talking about something with already very, very low efficiency, lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can selecting an item on the toolbelt waste an MOI?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Skullripz said:

Can selecting an item on the toolbelt waste an MOI?

No

 

You can open the Statistics menu (default keybind F4, otherwise it’s buried in the menus) and play around with various actions.  Only those that increment the ‘right click windows’ and ‘actions performed’ counters can consume a window.

Edited by nineol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does posting on the forums waste inspiration? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Archaed said:

Does posting on the forums waste inspiration? 

 

That comes from a separate pool, the same as is used for shitposting in global chat. Your MoI rolls are safe, assuming you can multitask enough not to miss them entirely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

So I received a PM from a good friend that just covered some additional stuff to mention. We’ve seen some bad info in some game channels about our findings and we want to nip it in the bud a little. 

There’s an assumption that you shouldn’t queue actions at all, and you shouldn’t click anything. This isn’t correct and I’ll give a better explanation below:

 

Let’s say you start an improve action, and you decide to examine the item. This will not close the rarity window. This is because the action was input first, even though the examine is an instant action. This is because it’ll still work off that input time of the action, as the rare roll is tied to that action, it will honor that unless you stop the improve action. 

 

This was tested via prayer. Between each prayer done for rare rolls, the altar was examined and it didn’t affect the rate or chance of getting the rare roll when praying. 

 

The big takeaway for this is if you want to comfortably hit your rare windows and get those rolls, don’t let an action go over 30 seconds, stagger your input time, and bind your keys if you can. Avoiding the right click context menu for things is not only better for your sanity and hands, but makes everything much more comfortable.

Edited by Madnath
  • Like 5
  • Cat 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

while imping, is it best to instantly queue a repairing action immediatly after an improving action or is this harmful ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Cyrix said:

while imping, is it best to instantly queue a repairing action immediatly after an improving action or is this harmful ?


If you were going to get a rare roll on the imping action, the repair action will not “intercept” or otherwise stop it from occurring.  
 

When targeting rare rolls I like to queue things like repair/eat/drink/etc. immediately after the initial action (or queue of actions, staying under 30s); keep them as close to the initial set as possible to minimize spreading sending queued actions out over a longer period of time.  If you sent an imp action and then your rare window opened the next second and then repair was sent then the repair would waste a moi but keeping them close gives you the best chance to catch as many as you can.

 

Feel free to PM me here/in-game if I’m not being clear enough. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/24/2022 at 9:19 PM, elentari said:

Side note, how is everyone's affinity experience? Have they been stealth nerfed? I haven't gotten 1 affinity in the past 6 months...I think my character is really bugged since he's not getting moi's from mining , not been getting affinities even. Either that or the RNG might actually make me quit or take another long break. 

Ever since that feature was released i have gained only 2 affinities and those were between 2 weeks of each other and some years ago :) SO i would say you have been super lucky if you normally get one per half year :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Ame said:

Ever since that feature was released i have gained only 2 affinities and those were between 2 weeks of each other and some years ago :) SO i would say you have been super lucky if you normally get one per half year :D

Affinities are way easier to gain if you perform fast and repeated actions, the easeist being repairing, fileting fish, etc but even having 2.5secs mining timers is a pretty good way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now