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Madnath

The V-Files: The Rolls Are Out There

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Posted (edited)

us-ecjKOVXFJkkejDetPs4g9CvBqE2-WCwu6m3L37xFHBMAGt3s4GuEz7QRbdHkzFuwwHbZK4CwrDMHkcCAYgLrfdL0bphnLJKhgG4QCxU8H7XriZzjM_DFK4934-Ds0ViFJEhizyeOPhXtc

 

Do you want to believe? 

 

 

Hi everyone, Madnath again. After the last thread got dumpstered, I’m going to take a different approach to this one to ensure I don’t get on anyones bad side again. Satire will be clear and marked as such, and cut down on. This post does aim to get the truth across, just in a silly-ish kinda way. 

 

Part 1: The Lead Up

 

As you may be expecting, what really started this off is the recent exploration update. If somehow you don’t know, rare rolls on certain actions will now give a treasure map. This has got a lot of people attempting to farm rare rolls to get maps whenever possible, and as you probably expect, a lot of people frustrated they aren’t getting them. But what if we’re all going about it wrong? Surely this type of thing would be well known and documented by now, right? Well…

 

Part 2: Realization & Research

 

This all kicked off initially with Nineol. You may know him as the madlad behind a fair few 100 titles and an insane skill record on Niarja, alongside always being there at Stanlee slays, working hard to ensure things go smoothly. Nineol is well versed in the game and a lot of its mechanics, including something important here, knowing how to farm rare items via crafting. 

 

If you’re not familiar with it, you can read much more about it in Oblivionnreaver’s “grindin everything” thead in the Game Guides subforum. It’s formatted really badly, much like this thread is. But in summary, you do a single craft or imp every 25 seconds or so with full deed rarity window, you can expect a rare every 2 hours and a supreme every 24 hours, of course the wait time for these essentially lower with the more accounts you can have doing it. Just be warned that trying to do this with more than 5 accounts will result in a similar APM and RSI to a Starcraft 2 pro.

 

Anyway, Nineol got to work on update day as he was eager to try the update on live and get some cool loot. The desire to take a break from grinding must have really set in. He set about to have his main on a tar patch digging away, while he also had 2 priests praying, 1 mining and another digging. Using the logic above, he expected to get a rare roll about every 2 hours across all accounts, getting him a nice haul of maps. 

Well, what happened? He got one rare roll the entire day.

He tried again the next day. And the day after. Same results both times. 

 

6LH1928yIhipNPNuqFODmt-p9IGfrRVesbd2pOchjlJxrQpCrR6kRqBjOf06b3p18Z5SiVuvOFY6Ibm63XqsCObBwx8VlVnQgxm-33odKml5eMB3R8ksdJvdLq_PFwM0FXsl48SYti7kE1TRnzX2BamEw2CTZGjRKccCB2BaC2k3j_MJONylUAvQ8-HJ4zpAVJQltToVvxJWJp5IqGw3OIJoG3HSS2mPl_9EXkLqKs1poK7nRPYvZxXhKHDz32fj00IqNe4alndkMtmAb3n10NXrLYLHBqYw6LH1928yIhipNPNuqFODmt-p9IGfrRVesbd2pOchjlJxrQpCrR6kRqBjOf06b3p18Z5SiVuvOFY6Ibm63XqsCObBwx8VlVnQgxm-33odKml5eMB3R8ksdJvdLq_PFwM0FXsl48SYti7kE1TR

 

Nineol starts to question his sanity at this point. A lot of questions just racing through his mind. Has Rolf returned purely to mess with the Niarja number 1? Did he expect there to be a treasure hunting skill that he simply must get 100 in? Have the invisible duck contrails messed with the rarity system? This is a big thing, it has the potential to rock the Wurm world. We must dig deeper….

 

END OF SATIRE. 

 

So Nineol decides to take a look in his event log, to see if he’s maybe overlooking something about the rare rolls. There must be something, right? 

Right. There’s a realization that all but one rare roll came from the first action in a queue. Curious. So he sends a message out to Stanlee and others, and they all return a very similar result. Most of their actions are coming from the first in the queue and not the rest, with only a few exceptions here and there. 

 

At this point, Stanlee contacts myself and Oblivionnreaver due to his extensive knowledge. However it seems that Oblivionnreaver didn’t respond so was unable to get any player based confirmation of what’s being seen.

 

Things go silent for a few days. Until Stanlee contacts me again. He lets me know that Nineol has switched up how he’s trying to get the rare rolls based on the findings detailed, and it works. Very bloody well, as he’s now finished the treasure hunting journal already. 

 

Part 3. Conclusion & Notes

 

At this point we’re very comfortable saying this is pretty much confirmed, given the solid evidence behind it. A dev reply to this thread confirming or denying it seems quite unlikely given how impactful this info can be to the general playerbase. Players could most likely try this themselves and verify it if they give it enough patience. You might get shafted on RNG with this, it’s the nature of the game but what we have documented is VERY telling, while also a bit too much to post in a single thread. 

 

If you want a shorter digest on how rarity windows work, here’s a very rough rundown.

At basically any moment, a rare trigger can happen which causes a rare window. This is by default 20 seconds, but can be upped to 30 seconds via deed rarity bonus. If you input an action within that time, the action becomes rare and the rarity window ends immediately. What we’ve gathered from the above info, is that all the actions done in a queue are done at the initial input time when you queued them up. This means a rarity window can happen in the time you’re doing queued actions, and that rarity window will pass because you’ve not technically inputted within that time even though you’re doing actions. Oh, and guess what? There’s a long list of things that will also immediately snap that rarity window closed. Including trying to do an imp action with the wrong tool. You can read about it in slightly more depth below. 

https://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/183756-rarity-windows-get-consumed-by-actions-that-dont-go-through/

 

EDIT: Staggering your input queue works too, but when you queue actions it uses the imput time and not when the action itself started. See spoiler below for an example. Thank you Shy for providing this.

Spoiler

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/794396539421327360/987905566691196938/unknown.png

 

I’m sorry this thread is rather dry on humor, but it’s pretty hard to make some important info like this funny. I hope those of you who bother to read this in full, or even partly, found it helpful and will use it to get some proper actions going and nice new rare items. 

 

And remember, the truth is out there.

Edited by Madnath
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i can safely agree that this is fact, I've been saying so for years but no one ever believes me lol.

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Posted (edited)

rarity window being wasted is a thing.. been there for years.. and tips from people grinding and making rares have been with stuff like .. do not do stuff you don't have to.. like improve/repairing on item if you don't need to repair it...

along with other code gems that were rumored and sound broken, but that's wu code and rumors, some of that should be reviewed and patched hopefully.. one day..

--edit

along all that there was a report from obi and gorski about right click menu or I think also any kind of server interaction/call or w/e, idk the details.. but server communication calls from the client seemed to interrupt and waste the rarity window, which sounds broken, proven to be a thing already for actions that do nothing and can not utilize rarity window but consume it.. that additionally kills some hope for better odds and non-botting(not just timing precise actions to ensure (chances for)better rewards) 

--edit

 

what I got so far from mining 10k rockshards is 4 chests; digging 18k clay produced 2 chests, and from sowind/tending/harvesting twice ~800 tile farm, on 2nd round got 2 chests within minutes;

 

many actions does not mean better chances..

sadly new content is just a farm of rarity window spamming and farming it with alts or what I call 'bot content', anything less than optimizing that and using alts to get more and better rewards or at least chances for that is definitely putting you behind and there's no way to catch up;

 

Edited by Finnn

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Posted (edited)

Dude, that's some shite..

 

Now I know why I can often play a few hours a day for several weeks without a single fakkin MOI.

 

Wow.

 

Thanks a bunch for this.

 

So I guess it comes down to a choice of maximizing skillgain/productivity over your time of game play or maximizing rare rolls.

Edited by MordosKull

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New meta: minimising mind logic for better rare farming

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Thanks for clearly marking the satire. I was really worried that someone was going to get hurt, but you made it safe for all of us.

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3 hours ago, Archaed said:

New meta: minimising mind logic for better rare farming

 

Quick, someone give me a head wound. 

 

Also, does this mean the old theory "newbies get more rare rolls" is softly confirmed now? Less mind logic, less skill.... 

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noobs don't multitask.. they have bigger spans between actions.. 

oh I need a small nail - make one, oh I need a plank - craft, oh ...

all actions are slow -> easier to get out of 1 window and into another

 

endgame.. lol

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Posted (edited)

This has been "kinda" known for years, i think i even pointed it out several times in various game chats and PMs, but the RNG behind rare creation has ALSO pretty blatantly been played around with several times in the past, i made this thread shortly after NFI release:
 



Please note that when i made this thread i was already aware of this "bug" or "feature" and i always religiously taken it into consideration when spamming for rares. Results were still abysmally lower than expectations for a certain time frame.

From when i made this thread, it has been tuned again, i'm now convinced that they are just tweaking it every now and then without making any of those changes public.

Please keep in mind that my sample size is huge, i have made to this date more than a thousand rare items over the years, and it's way beyond bias territory, so don't get me started with the bias talk again because... please just don't.


In case you didn't know, anyway, this issue is less effective in digging / mining and a few others skills anyway.
While you can delete a window by clicking, or queuing a a repair (or literally anything) while already improving, if you get a window opened while digging and you just press "dig" or "mine", you won't delete the window, in fact you can get rare dirt /shards on queued actions this way, they are harder to mess up with

Edited by Davih
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Hmm, I remember ages ago when trying to find out about rare creation seeing that one should only do one action every rarity window and never que up multiple actions.

 

Also, remember Retro saying something like people would be upset if they knew how many MOI were wasted by right clicks.

 

An exception to the one action is raise ceiling with mining. Possibly flatten floor too. We have gotten lots of rare rockshards mid level/flatten. Also, we all have atleast one mining affinity from doing this as it seems to check each rock shard not just the qued action. 

 

Probably shouldn't have mentioned that last part. Nope shouldn't have done that. 

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Affinities work in a completely different way, in fact repairing is one of the easiest way to get an affinity, every "skill check trigger" is a potential affinity.

I have an hard time understanding how the OP could mess up mining/digging so bad to only get a rare/day, unless he was literally rightclicking the terrain to click mine/dig

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1 hour ago, Eleraan said:

Also, remember Retro saying something like people would be upset if they knew how many MOI were wasted by right clicks.

 

i'm already upset because i'm quite sure i've wasted a few... (i right click, examine, etc things a LOT) :(

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Davih said:

have an hard time understanding how the OP could mess up mining/digging so bad to only get a rare/day, unless he was literally rightclicking the terrain to click mine/dig

 

That’s easy.  Digging for skill, not for resources.  Queue 10 actions with a ql1 shovel, 3-4 rare windows potentially missed, 1 potentially hit.  ~2 minutes later, queue up another 10 actions, 3-4 rare windows potentially missed, 1 potentially hit. ~3 minutes later, queue up another 10 actions, 5-6 potential windows missed, 1 potentially hit. ~4 mins later queue up another 8 (end of stam), 7-8 potential windows missed, 1 potentially hit while the last 8 actions run out.  Around 12-13 minutes of actions with 4 windows potentially hit via queueing.

High stamina goes a long, long way.

 

A lot of folks, myself included, were under the impression that the actions were being checked for rarity when the action started, not when it was queued.  That’s what this post is spelling out for folks who didn’t realize the ‘actions performed’ counter goes up when the action is sent, not when it begins.  This is something that someone wouldn’t intuitively pick up on when sending 1 action every 28s or so to spam out rares via creation.

 

The solution to this while grinding is to stagger when you send the actions so that you’re queueing at least one every 30s to ensure that you’re hitting every potential rare window.

Edited by nineol
words; I didn't know either
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3 hours ago, Davih said:

This has been "kinda" known for years, i think i even pointed it out several times in various game chats and PMs

 

Yeah, full disclosure, Nineol told me at some point this has been information that was known but has seemed to fade away in the knowledge of the community. And it's certainly something I didn't really, properly know. Resources saved is one part of the benefits talked about when rare spamming and I think a fair whack of people took that as one of the biggest reasons why, other than just maxing out rare window potential. I'd still think rare rolls would happen with queued actions honestly.

 

4 hours ago, Davih said:

In case you didn't know, anyway, this issue is less effective in digging / mining and a few others skills anyway.

While you can delete a window by queuing an improve or a repair (or literally anything) while already improving, if you get a window opened while digging and you just press "dig" or "mine", you won't delete the window, in fact you can get rare dirt /shards on queued actions this way, they are harder to mess up with

 

Interesting. I'm noting this personally but not in the OP,  since I already think it's way too large and dry on things to make it an entertaining read.

 

3 hours ago, Davih said:

I have an hard time understanding how the OP could mess up mining/digging so bad to only get a rare/day, unless he was literally rightclicking the terrain to click mine/dig

 

I know he's already responded, but sadly I'm not Nineol. But his explanation is on point, and points why we felt this thread needs to be made. Info like this should be shared, even if to some it's already well known and understood.

 

 

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3 hours ago, nineol said:

 

That’s easy.  Digging for skill, not for resources.  Queue 10 actions with a ql1 shovel, 3-4 rare windows potentially missed, 1 potentially hit.  ~2 minutes later, queue up another 10 actions, 3-4 rare windows potentially missed, 1 potentially hit. ~3 minutes later, queue up another 10 actions, 5-6 potential windows missed, 1 potentially hit. ~4 mins later queue up another 8 (end of stam), 7-8 potential windows missed, 1 potentially hit while the last 8 actions run out.  Around 12-13 minutes of actions with 4 windows potentially hit via queueing.

High stamina goes a long, long way.

 

A lot of folks were under the impression that the actions were being checked for rarity when the action started, not when it was queued.  That’s what this post is spelling out for folks who didn’t realize the ‘actions performed’ counter goes up when the action is sent, not when it begins.  This is something that someone wouldn’t intuitively pick up on when sending 1 action every 28s or so to spam out rares via creation.

 

The solution to this while grinding is to stagger when you send the actions so that you’re queueing at least one every 30s to ensure that you’re hitting every potential rare window.

That makes perfect sense, thanks for clarifying, i'm totally not used to deal with such high amount of body stamina and action queues

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Posted (edited)

Truth be told, i'm still trying to confirm this (cause it's uncomfortable for multiacc and was never really important to me), but i think that if you queue up some improve actions (total queue shorter than 28secs) and then, like 25 seconds later add another improve action to the queue while the queue is still running (NOT a repair one first, though, cause repair will 100% delete it) without clicking anything in the meantime, You can still hit a window that opened in the last 25 seconds and get a rare roll on a queued improve action.

Edited by Davih

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Davih said:

Truth be told, i'm still trying to confirm this (cause it's uncomfortable for multiacc and was never really important to me), but i think that if you queue up some improve actions (total queue shorter than 28secs) and then, like 25 seconds later add another improve action to the queue while the queue is still running (NOT a repair one first, though, cause repair will 100% delete it) without clicking anything in the meantime, You can still hit a window that opened in the last 25 seconds and get a rare roll on a queued improve action.

 

Yep - 100% correct

 

edit - you could queue up actions that would take longer than 28-30 seconds to run out and hit windows as long as you are queuing more actions less than 30s since the initial actions that you queued.  It’s all about when the actions get queued/sent.

 

e.g., queue 10 imp actions, wait 28 seconds and queue another bunch, wait 28 seconds, queue more, etc.

Edited by nineol

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Posted (edited)

Hi folks, me again. Just want to do another digest post with some parts that may have been worded poorly by myself or not initially very clear.

 

  • This post isn't to enforce any playstyle or method over another. I'm just highlighting some important info on how to make sure you're getting the rare rolls if you're specifically looking for them.
  • What makes stagger queueing work is the input time, rather than when the action happens. By that I mean when you queue it, rather than when the action starts in event log. There is an edit in the OP to show what a stagger queue looks like now, so if you're not quite having it click in your mind, give it a quick look and it'll make sense.
  • If stagger queueing works for you is gonna depend on a lot of things, but mainly casts on what you're using to imp with and your body stamina. If stagger queueing isn't working for you, don't sweat it, just let stamina regen. With max deed rarity bonus, the windows last for 30 seconds so you've got a fairly good buffer time to do an imp, and regen stamina if needed. Binds are a good idea as right clicking will snap the rarity window shut, as wil repairing.
  • Edit 1: I think I touched on it in the OP but just so we're sharing all the info we have, there have been a very few instances we saw where a rare roll was triggered during a queued imp, like you'd think the system would work before reading this. Now, these are incredibly rare, to the point where they likely make up 4% or less of the overall rare rolls that were counted. Issue is, the rarity system being like it is, we can't really pinpoint why that is and why it'd be happening. I'd highly suggest following the post above me and the post it's replying to, as it may offer some sort of insight into it, maybe?

 

 

If you've got any questions, please feel free to ask here. No judgment, we're happy to explain and give input. We're happy the info is out there now and people are finding it useful, and we want to make sure we can help everyone who might still have questions about this.

Edited by Madnath
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7 hours ago, Madnath said:

Edit 1: I think I touched on it in the OP but just so we're sharing all the info we have, there have been a very few instances we saw where a rare roll was triggered during a queued imp, like you'd think the system would work before reading this. Now, these are incredibly rare, to the point where they likely make up 4% or less of the overall rare rolls that were counted. Issue is, the rarity system being like it is, we can't really pinpoint why that is and why it'd be happening. I'd highly suggest following the post above me and the post it's replying to, as it may offer some sort of insight into it, maybe?

 

When you fill your queue you are still sending a series of discrete actions to the game. A guess: there's a chance that some of the actions arrive at the server and get processed and queued up in one game tick, and the rest arrive at the server and get processed and queued up in the next game tick, and there's a small chance that a window is opened in between there (as one can open on any game tick), which would immediately be consumed by the first action that's processed in the second tick.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, nineol said:

e.g., queue 10 imp actions, wait 28 seconds and queue another bunch, wait 28 seconds, queue more, etc.

Yep, the problem with this would be that the rare outcome gets queued for that specific action, and you have to actually get that action done to "receive" the rare result.

This could end wrong in few ways, like:
- You run out of stamina before that action
- You hit rock (digging)
- you break the wall or it becomes non mineable for some reason before that action (mining)
- The tree gets felled before that action occurs (woodcutting)
- You queue an improve that ends up being wrong (like improve succeedes and the rare queued one becomes the wrong tool for the improve)
- You cancel that action later for any other reason
- etc, you got the idea i guess.

Edit : oh yeah, also queue size exceeded

 

Edited by Davih

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This is something really quite interesting, and totally correct from the wurm unlimited code, whenever an action is sent to the server is when the polling happens on the rare window. The worse thing is that it also polls rarity before adding it to your queue so any "You are too busy" actions also consume your rare roll. At least from a brief readthrough]

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40 minutes ago, Lethyria said:

This is something really quite interesting, and totally correct from the wurm unlimited code, whenever an action is sent to the server is when the polling happens on the rare window. The worse thing is that it also polls rarity before adding it to your queue so any "You are too busy" actions also consume your rare roll. At least from a brief readthrough]

hilarious, guess how normal high ml player mines with no hardware macro, press mining keybind.................. release once you see too busy 10/10 code 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/23/2022 at 4:15 PM, Davih said:

This has been "kinda" known for years,

No it hasn't. Actually the majority of people I've spoken to have no clue how the rarity system in wurm works. Only a handful of people actually know these things.  Most people (including a lot of 5+ year old vets) didn't even know OR's post how rarity spamming works. 

 

17 hours ago, Madnath said:

Now, these are incredibly rare, to the point where they likely make up 4% or less of the overall rare rolls that were counted. Issue is, the rarity system being like it is, we can't really pinpoint why that is and why it'd be happening. I'd highly suggest following the post above me and the post it's replying to, as it may offer some sort of insight into it, maybe?

Can confirm a few days ago I queued up 6 prayers on my alt. 2nd or 3rd prayer got her a supreme map while the 5th prayer got her another supreme map. There was a 42 second interval between the 2 supreme rolls. These rolls happened when I alt tabbed to watch a youtube vid so no other action was taken to influence the outcome. I think this is one of those 0.000001% chances of ever happening to me again. 

 

However I do suspect that queuing up is actually working against the roll windows from personal experience. This makes me a bit sad because I do not want to change my playstyle on my priest alt to stagger prayers. I kinda want to do destinations unknown on her by spamming prayers to finish up the journal goal. 

 

I don't know, just don't like this system, feels like it was made to be botted or people crafting scripts to bot this stuff. 

 

Side note, how is everyone's affinity experience? Have they been stealth nerfed? I haven't gotten 1 affinity in the past 6 months...I think my character is really bugged since he's not getting moi's from mining , not been getting affinities even. Either that or the RNG might actually make me quit or take another long break. 

Edited by elentari

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