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Serzane

Cadence Community Map Proposal

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On 6/24/2022 at 11:07 AM, Lovelie said:

asked (as courtesy) if it was cool to post their deeds for the community map.

 

You didn't ask my permission

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23 hours ago, SmeJack said:

 

You didn't ask my permission

Quote the entire sentence:

 

Quote

As another aside, in my travels I have found about 10+ un-mapped deed owners online in Harmony and asked (as courtesy) if it was cool to post their deeds for the community map.

 

Were you online and at your deed at the same time I was?

If you were present and I simply didn't see you in local, that's my fault and I apologize.

If you weren't online and present, then there was no-one for me to ask. I don't know who owns what settlements and I've discovered over 50 un-mapped deeds, so unless I'm having a chat or getting a tour with the online deed-owner, I only stay a few minutes to locate the settlement token and then leave to find the next. I don't research or chase down offline people because the traveling alone is already very time-consuming!

 

Everyone on every server still retains their choice to Opt Out. Simply contact the map managers (who I believe are currently tpikol and minikilljoy for Harmony) and they will remove your deed from the map for you, forever if you like. Cheers :)

 

p.s. i like your radiohead avatar!

Edited by Lovelie
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My point is, why is it a courtesy only if they are online? If you do not need permission then why bother at all? It's not a courtesy unless you make an effort for all, otherwise its just a thinly veiled attempt to make yourself look better for something that you don't think is a bad thing and need not bother saying is a courtesy at all. The opt out option is also ridiculous:

 

On 6/27/2022 at 11:14 PM, MiniKilljoy said:

If you are the mayor of a deed on the map and you feel that you have a good reason to hide your settlement from the community, please send me a PM, requesting your deed to be removed from the map ("Opt-out"). Please include a reason.

 

Why should the owner of a deed that does not want to be on the map be required to have a reason let alone a "good" one? who is the judge on what is or isn't a good reason? Not to mention that the people in this thread in favour of this option basically vilify those who dont like it as being anti community and hateful people who want to ruin other peoples fun. But yeah sure "just opt out"

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9 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

My point is, why is it a courtesy only if they are online?

 

Because if you find a deed and say "hey, you ok with adding this deed to the map" when there's nobody online to hear it, it's kinda pointless.

 

9 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

If you do not need permission then why bother at all?

 

Because it's currently an opt out map. If they end up not wanting to be on the map, they can opt out after they are put on. If they happened to be online, you can ask them directly and if they don't want to be on you save both of you a little effort.

 

9 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

It's not a courtesy unless you make an effort for all,

 

The courtesy is letting people know about it, and possibly saving some effort. You're thinking of "mandatory", which this is not.

 

9 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

otherwise its just a thinly veiled attempt to make yourself look better for something that you don't think is a bad thing and need not bother saying is a courtesy at all.

 

Note that a courtesy is generally something you give above and beyond what is required.

 

If it were up to me there'd be no opting out at all. Everything goes on the maps.

 

9 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

The opt out option is also ridiculous:

 

Why should the owner of a deed that does not want to be on the map be required to have a reason let alone a "good" one?

 

This has been discussed *very* extensively in this very thread.

 

9 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

who is the judge on what is or isn't a good reason?

 

In this case, the map maker, who has the final say on what goes on the map they make.

 

9 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

Not to mention that the people in this thread in favour of this option basically vilify those who dont like it as being anti community and hateful people who want to ruin other peoples fun. But yeah sure "just opt out"

 

I've not seen a single good reason for not wanting to be on the map, and a whole lot of good reasons for having a complete map.

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20 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

My point is, why is it a courtesy only if they are online? If you do not need permission then why bother at all? It's not a courtesy unless you make an effort for all, otherwise its just a thinly veiled attempt to make yourself look better for something that you don't think is a bad thing and need not bother saying is a courtesy at all. The opt out option is also ridiculous:

 

 

Why should the owner of a deed that does not want to be on the map be required to have a reason let alone a "good" one? who is the judge on what is or isn't a good reason? Not to mention that the people in this thread in favour of this option basically vilify those who dont like it as being anti community and hateful people who want to ruin other peoples fun. But yeah sure "just opt out"

To address your final point, I am a "people in this thread in favour of this option" and I don't believe I have vilified anyone.

 

I also have never used my choice to Opt Out so I do not know how easy or difficult it is to do so. Judging from the replies of the people who I believe are map managers in here, it didn't appear or sound hard to me. "I might be wrong".

Maybe you ought to talk to or tag the map managers to find an answer to your question "why".

 

And finally, it is a courtesy for that exact reason your wrote: I don't need permission. A courtesy is to be nice and display conventionally polite behavior in a social situation.

If a person is present, I ask them to be polite and potentially save them a step in case they prefer to Opt Out (and in my travels one person did say he wanted to hold off, and then he gave me a tour).

If a person isn't present, there's no-one to ask.

In the end, the onus is on the deed-owner to take that step to Opt Out.

 

From the way it sounds, a deed-owner can preemptively Opt Out and their deed will never show up on the map, even if I happen to discover it next week, it will never show on the map. I defer to the map managers again because I'm not actually affiliated with the map. I'm just a traveler.

Edited by Lovelie
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A courtesy is manners and respect, which means you only have that respect for those you dont have to put a little extra effort into

 

4 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

In this case, the map maker, who has the final say on what goes on the map they make.

 

Then its no longer "opt out" if you have to plead your case and hope it passes.

Edited by SmeJack
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I am starting to find that this whole opt out opt in thing is really exposing a lot of selfish players that are putting treasure chests and knowing the location of  everyone at all times above someone elses wish that you pretend their deed doesn't exist. 

 

Still going to continue to say that Opt In is better, has worked on all the other maps since before a lot of you have even started playing.

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2 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

A courtesy is manners and respect, which means you only have that respect for those you dont have to put a little extra effort into

I believe that by acting in accordance to what is acceptable by the map managers' rules and by asking an online-and-present deed-owner for their blessing or to save them some time, I am showing courteous behavior.

 

If you expect me to research all 50+ deeds and deed-owners and google their usernames to find their forum identity, their social media, or to constantly attempt whispering them at various intervals throughout the day to try and learn who owns what settlement and contact them... Well, I think that behavior is not categorized under "courteous" and I also believe it's antithetical to the desires of a person who wishes to Opt Out from a community map. 

 

This has already teetered beyond personal and past the topic at hand, so if you want to discuss my behavior and how it made you feel you can message me!

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Its not personal, its a different point of view which oddly enough is what is required for a discussion otherwise its just a bunch of yes men in an echo chamber validating each other and patting themselves on the back.

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11 minutes ago, Blazecraze said:

I am starting to find that this whole opt out opt in thing is really exposing a lot of selfish players that are putting treasure chests and knowing the location of  everyone at all times above someone elses wish that you pretend their deed doesn't exist. 

 

We don't need to know anyone's location for anything.

 

We want to map the world though. This is an open world multiplayer game, and so the world is shared. And several game mechanics require or at least heavily nudge you to know the landmarks in this shared world, so no, I'm not going to pretend that deeds don't exist. If you build something in this shared world then that becomes fair game for being public knowledge.

Edited by Lisimba

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6 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

Its not personal, its a different point of view which oddly enough is what is required for a discussion otherwise its just a bunch of yes men in an echo chamber validating each other and patting themselves on the back.

I have been categorized as someone who vilifies others and calls others hateful, and described as someone who doesn't respect others if it is not directly convenient, all in the span of an hour, which I find to be both false and pretty personal.

 

Let's talk about the Community Map instead of about people, please.

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You think your actions are fine, others may not but everyone is entitled to an opinion. If you were not one of the people vilifying and hating on others then you have no reason to take it personally so yes please stop.

 

I don't see what harm it does to anyone to let both sides enjoy things the way they like. There's enough info from the ones that want locations to respect those that want to remain uncharted.

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Some of these discussion points are getting into very weird territory.

 

You may feel that you're entitled to a reasonable degree of privacy. But you're not entitled to secrecy. There's a huge difference between Personally Identifiable Information and the name/position of a mayor/deed. Forum moderators may be required to remove the former information from posts, but not the latter. 

 

Having said that: As I understand it, the policy going forward will be...

  • deeds not connected to the highway won't be added to the map unless the mayor requests it to be added
  • deeds on the highway will be added to the map unless the mayor asks for it not to be
  • anyone can ask for their deed to be removed for any reason, or for no reason

Is this really so unreasonable? Am I wrong in my understanding? Is someone proposing a Star Chamber that will hear the petitions of those who wish to be removed from the map? Will removal be refused if they don't make a strong enough case? Maybe I missed something.

Edited by Sheffie
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Changes to Map Policy have been implemented.  Cadence is now an Opt-Out map the same as Harmony.  You're all welcome to continue to weigh in here, but it's a bit moot at this point.

 

Even with Opt-Out, you can be off the map.  If by chance, you are mapped, you can post in the Community Map thread to be removed.  Once removed, you will not be added again as there is a field in the excel spreadsheet that puts your name into a "do not add" category.  In previous posts, I had mentioned a compromise, but being as the vote in favor of opt out was 3 to1, the decision was made to keep things consistent and simple.  No one seemed to embrace the compromise anyway.  I by the way, have no official role with the map other than creating this OP.

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39 minutes ago, Blazecraze said:

Still going to continue to say that Opt In is better, has worked on all the other maps since before a lot of you have even started playing.

this means nothing but judging by when you made your forum account i was making opt out maps long before you started playing, so even if you want to play this nonsense you lose.

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5 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

I don't see what harm it does to anyone to let both sides enjoy things the way they like. There's enough info from the ones that want locations to respect those that want to remain uncharted.

 

For finding your way after you're lost, yeah. If I encounter a deed that's not on the map I can look for another and chances are I'll eventually find a recognizable landmark.

 

If a treasure map clue mentions being near your deed though, I need to know where that is. Doesn't help there to have other deeds mapped. Also if your deed isn't mapped I'll end up charting it anyway because I'll have to find it one way or another.

 

If I'm looking for new locations to do archaeology, it helps to know that what I see on the map is an active deed. That way I can go elsewhere. Having more deeds mapped out helps on average but it's still useful to know the rest.

 

If there's a deity mission up that mentions being near your deed, it *really* helps if it's on the community map as those require you to search a very big area otherwise. Having any other deed mapped does not help at all.

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I dont know why this is discussed still. Its quite clear that someone just made a map where it says that anyone that dont want their deed on it would have to send a pm to the map editor. To be honest im quite disappointed about that, even tho i particularily dont care. Why is the voice of people who want to know other peoples deeds location stronger than the voice of people who dont want their own deed on the map?

 

I want to know your location, i win.

I want to not be on the community map, i loose.

Edited by Nordlys
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15 minutes ago, Sheffie said:

anyone can ask for their deed to be removed for any reason, or for no reason

 

1 hour ago, Lisimba said:

In this case, the map maker, who has the final say on what goes on the map they make.

 

They directly say that they will decide this based on their own preferences and attitude towards specific players.
Wash victory and power hit them in the head.

 

In this case this is no longer a community map. And i see no reason why it should be on official forum. If they want the map where the opinions of other people doesn't matters, then they should make their own forum and ask people there to post data for map.

Edited by DzhoDzhok

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9 minutes ago, Nordlys said:

 

I want to not be on the community map, i loose.

How do you lose if

9 minutes ago, Nordlys said:

anyone that dont want their deed on it would have to send a pm to the map editor.

?

 

Anyone can get their wish if they really don't want to be on the map. It even prevents it from showing up on the map forever easily, as others explained earlier. Just Opt Out if you wish to Opt Out. I am not understanding how anyone is winning or losing (besides the vote -- which doesn't matter anymore).

Edited by Lovelie

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1 hour ago, SmeJack said:

It's not a courtesy unless you make an effort for all, otherwise its just a thinly veiled attempt to make yourself look better for something that you don't think is a bad thing and need not bother saying is a courtesy at all.

 

9 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

If you were not one of the people vilifying and hating on others then you have no reason to take it personally so yes please stop.

 

You can't imply someone is acting in dissonance with what they're saying and evaluate it in a negative light without making it personal--Lovelie didn't take it personally on a whim, rather your direct conclusion of "thinly-veiled attempts" and non-courteous behavior was certainly a personally-oriented one. Have you had these conversations as mentioned with Lovelie? If not, your second-hand evaluations don't carry weight anyway, being purely theoretical--she's actually remarkably courteous and makes concerted effort to go above and beyond regularlyspoken from experience.

 

That said, I don't want to belabor the point after the request for keeping on-topic, so I'll do just that now:

 

I feel like having a "good enough" reason for opting out would be something as simple as being more comfortable not being on the map--but I don't know what the map maintainer's criteria are for making that determination. Maybe would be good to have some clarity on that point.

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Dec, I think its a pretty loose criteria and if someone doesn't want to be on the map for whatever reason, they won't be on the map.  i think as long as you simply provide any reason, it's going to be respected.  I for one and really happy that we haven't been dealing with the Cuban Missile crisis here.  

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1 minute ago, Serzane said:

Dec, I think its a pretty loose criteria and if someone doesn't want to be on the map for whatever reason, they won't be on the map.  i think as long as you simply provide any reason, it's going to be respected.  I for one and really happy that we haven't been dealing with the Cuban Missile crisis here.  

 

 

You're right, I just saw Sheffie's response too so yeah I'm good and clear on that part now!

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9 minutes ago, Decafon said:

I feel like having a "good enough" reason for opting out would be something as simple as being more comfortable not being on the map--but I don't know what the map maintainer's criteria are for making that determination. Maybe would be good to have some clarity on that point.

to be as real as it gets, the reason the topic says that is because we used a reduced version of the old harmony map topic which was a copy of a topic yaga made for deliverance and we just didnt think about if keeping that part of it makes sense or not.

 

that is the one and only reason that thing about "the good reason" is there.

Edited by Tpikol
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It may be time for this topic to be closed, but that is up to the chat moderators.  I am not sure that every single argument hasn't already been raised here, although it's good to have the clarity that Tpikol just provided.

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3 minutes ago, Tpikol said:

to be as real as it gets, the reason the topic says that is because we used a reduced version of the old harmony map topic which was a copy of a topic yaga made for deliverance and we just didnt think about if keeping that part of it makes sense or not.

 

that is the one and only reason that thing about "the good reason" is there.

 

Then remove this phrase from the post.

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