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Serzane

Cadence Community Map Proposal

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1 minute ago, Tpikol said:

100% of deed that fall are  raided now,  how could it posibly be any easier? will 150% of deeds by raided if we change the policy?

Obviously not, but as I mentioned before time is of the essence. So if a deed falls none knows about and thats not on the highway it would took quiet a while for the raiders to find the deed, right? So if the deed fell due to real life issues friends of that person or themselves may have at least a chance to safe stuff. That's all I am talking about.

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1 hour ago, Morbidae said:

So if a deed falls none knows about and thats not on the highway it would took quiet a while for the raiders to find the deed, right? So if the deed fell due to real life issues friends of that person or themselves may have at least a chance to safe stuff. That's all I am talking about.

if you assume that raiders didnt already know it was close to falling and have been waiting for it to fall  with prepared buildings made by alts so they can move everything worth taking into their own nearby building while they wait to move it , which is what raiders usually do. dedicated raiders wont be affect at all, casual ones may be.

the only way that works to stop your friends deeds being raided when you know they want to come back but cant right now is to help them by adding to their upkeep.

Edited by Tpikol

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I only live on Harmony so I abstain from voting, but as someone who has put in a LOOOOT of time and effort into riding around, finding, and submitting Guard Towers and Deeds for the mapmakers of Harmony, I wanted to chime in... 

 

In an Opt-Out community map, you always have the power and choice to Opt Out. (Hence the name :)) If you care strongly and you really don't want your deed on the map, you simply tell the mapmaker and they will keep your deed off the map and private.

 

In an Opt-In community map, the map will probably be missing many deeds, towers, etc. of people who don't check the forums and/or don't care strongly one way or the other. These people aren't necessarily hiding or trying to be private. Maybe they just never got around to submitting. Maybe they don't like forums. Maybe they don't know they have to manually submit deeds. Maybe lots of things. As a consequence, a lot of missing info.

 

Anyone who cares strongly about their privacy still can remain private if they so desire. I feel like a lot of people are missing this aspect.

Good luck Cadence~

Edited by Lovelie
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40 minutes ago, Lovelie said:

In an Opt-In community map, the map will probably be missing many deeds, towers, etc. of people who don't check the forums and/or don't care strongly one way or the other. These people aren't necessarily hiding or trying to be private. Maybe they just never got around to submitting. Maybe they don't like forums. Maybe they don't know they have to manually submit deeds. Maybe lots of things. As a consequence, a lot of missing info.

 

Anyone who cares strongly about their privacy still can remain private if they so desire. I feel like a lot of people are missing this aspect.

In general correct, but those who would wanna stay private and don't know about the map can't cuz they just get put on it.
Which is why I mentioned that this post should be publicised on freedom chat on Cadence several times a day so everyone has a chance to speak up.

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1 hour ago, Morbidae said:

In general correct, but those who would wanna stay private and don't know about the map can't cuz they just get put on it.
Which is why I mentioned that this post should be publicised on freedom chat on Cadence several times a day so everyone has a chance to speak up.

 

you're welcome to publicize it.

 

I did so for the first day.  I won't quibble with your response much, but I do believe the majority of players are aware of the community map link and have been using much more since the treasure update.  i think if they were to see their deed on that map and object, they could opt out.  having a deed on harmony as well, i can tell you that Lovelie is spot on.  The community map is widely used there and hardly a day goes by without someone posting the link to it in chat.

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Opt-in and Opt-out map both provide an option for the deed owner to choose whether they want to appear on a third party map or not. This is the similarity, the deed owner can choose to be private or public on the third party map.

The discussion should be focused on the differences between Opt-in and Opt-out. Which is, Who got the right to put my deed name appear on a third party map.


The Opt-out supporter should say everyone have the right and the deed owner have the final right because of...

  • 1)The final right to private their deed on third party map are still depend on the owner(Counter: How can u make sure that every owners aware they have the final right? Cannot expect every owners to check it because it's a third party map, they have the right to stay silence or refuse to give any attentions to a third party program that people didn't sign it up to play wurm)
  • 2)The Opt-in map would probably be look emptier than an Opt-out map(Counter: The in-game map are more emptier, the map like that are compulsory when people sign up to play wurm. And they didn't sign up for a third party map and it's an option, There is no compulsory to have a deed names everywhere map. IDK maybe some people consider a third party map to track every deeds is some kind of cheating? even though the wurm team allows it.
  • 3)Treasure hunt finding easier and faster.
  • 4)Increase the amount of people to raid a disbanded deed before the friends of the owner come to save the deed because it increases the amount of people to find and raid a deed more easier and faster. Increase the efficiency to raid people to punish the disbanded deed owner for not putting wurm on the first priority. 


The Opt-in supporter should say only the deed owner have the right because of...

  • A)People should not expect people to check third party map because when u press M in-game, the third party maps are not showing. The third party maps are not build in-game. They did't sign up for that. Because of this, there is a chance the deed owner are clueless about the right to make their deed name private or not on third party map.
  • B)People cannot post a deed name on a third party map without the consent of the deed owner.
  • C)Some people stay on cadence because of the Opt-in rule, No other way to migrate to other PVE NFI because they are all Opt-out rule. Guess the only way is to restart on SFI Independence, Pristine, Release, Xanadu, not sure about Celebration and Exodus(guess towards Opt-in too? unlike the clear rule of Deliverance). Provide variety in wurm, an Opt-in map option for NFI people to choose in a sandbox game.
  • D)Reduce the amount of work of either the third party map owner or the deed owners. They might need to input the deed names to check whether the deed want to be private by compare on a toggle-off list. IDK how Opt-out map work, but if the the third party map owner don't check the toggle-off list, then the deed owner have to keep track their deed name pop up on the map or not. This increase the workload of the deed owners who want to be private on the third party map instead.

 

I obviously didn't stay silence, but there are people who choose to stay silence or refuse to give any attentions to a third party program that isn't compulsive to sign up to play wurm. And they have the right to do that. 
I like the benefit of a Opt-out map. But I respect the right to stay silence or refuse to give any attentions to a third party program and the people who are the clueless about the right to make their deed name private or not. So i choose Opt-in in final.

Edited by Coach
edit the C) part from people to some people

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Overall its easy to focus on the community map but I think a lot of people keep maps of their own either in their head or even shared amongst friends, this is evidenced by just how quickly even deeds not on the community map are raided when they fall. At the end of the day its an online multiplayer game and people will find you no matter if you like it or not.

 

This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion but regarding fallen deeds I'm not sure I believe in any kind of legacy entitlement once your upkeep has run out. I appreciate there is an argument for real life getting in the way sometimes and almost certainly people do unfairly lose their deeds because of this. The counter point when a deed falls however is that the rest of the server should not be made to wait for someone who more than likely is never going to come back, ultimately the game mechanic is that you pay for your land claim and if your not paying anymore then its not yours.

Maybe a solution on this front regarding friends being able to salvage items in the event of an emergency would be allowing Alliance members to see upkeep if they check the token.

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On 6/21/2022 at 11:51 PM, Hegemon said:

I vote no.            I would like to ask the official Wurm team to take steps to ensure that my game play is not represented beyond the official game without my consent.   You do not have it.    

 

https://twitter.com/WO_Cadence/status/1450942975077502983

 

Bit too late for that. Foundings, slayings, disbands, completion of certain things, etc. are all broadcast on twitter, which in turn is picked up by the discord bot, and by google and whoever else feels like monitoring that stuff.

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2 hours ago, Lisimba said:

 

https://twitter.com/WO_Cadence/status/1450942975077502983

 

Bit too late for that. Foundings, slayings, disbands, completion of certain things, etc. are all broadcast on twitter, which in turn is picked up by the discord bot, and by google and whoever else feels like monitoring that stuff.

Last I checked the location of deed was not part of the broadcast. Did that change?

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Some great discussion, but no clear additional votes in either direction, so vote is still at 16/6.

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4 hours ago, SirMuttley said:

Last I checked the location of deed was not part of the broadcast. Did that change?

 

No. But foundings, disbandings, slayings, etc. are all gameplay that's already represented beyond the official game. Intentionally so, as the game itself puts it on Twitter. And from there it goes into Discord, ends up on Google, is indexed by Niarja, and so on. So having some of your activity recorded externally is already a longstanding practice, contrary to the post I replied to there.

 

This game is a shared, public sandbox. As a player you do not have a duty to announce everything you do, but neither do you have the right to forbid other players from sharing what they discovered, just because the thing they discovered is something you happened to touch. The people who make the maps have been leaving out deeds as a courtesy, but it's time for that to end.

 

I did a number of treasure hunts over the last few days, and active deeds do get named in the clues. And whenever I had to reorient myself it was a big help to find the nearest deed or guard tower and look it up on the map. Having those on there would have been valuable even without the exploration update. Seriously, having guard towers on the community maps is great.

 

So, you can find the location of deeds on the map dumps by looking at the shape of roads and other marks. You can find the name and location of deeds with the Reveal Settlements spell. You can find deeds by just randomly walking around and waiting for the game to announce in the events window that you entered one, complete with name the moment you cross the border. Deed foundings and disbandings are announced on Twitter and Discord, and with server wide messages. Deeds are not private entities, both by design and in practice. Honestly there should not be an opt-anything, just put everything you find on the map so everyone who actually likes to get off their deed and explore the world can make use of the information collectively gathered by others, just like you explore a world collectively made by others.

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30 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

This game is a shared, public sandbox. As a player you do not have a duty to announce everything you do, but neither do you have the right to forbid other players from sharing what they discovered, just because the thing they discovered is something you happened to touch. The people who make the maps have been leaving out deeds as a courtesy, but it's time for that to end.

 

But as a player, you have an obligation to respect other people's wishes and interests.

 

This whole topic boils down to the fact that those who are "opt-out" just want to make their lives easier. In search of treasure (which negates the efforts of developers in creating interesting content), in looting abandoned settlements. But your desires end where other people's rights begin. Privacy is one of the main rights in normal communities. And your desire to spend 10 minutes less searching for treasure, finding a way, or plundering a settlement faster cannot be more important than the desires of other people to maintain their privacy. That makes all your arguments for "opt-out" irrelevant.

 

Respect other players, and respect game developers.

 

And by the way, the expressions "opt-in" and "opt-out" do not correspond to the meaning of your desires. They mean that a person must initially know that some action will be done that concerns him. And in this case, most players remain in the dark about your arbitrariness.

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59 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

 

No. But foundings, disbandings, slayings, etc. are all gameplay that's already represented beyond the official game. Intentionally so, as the game itself puts it on Twitter. And from there it goes into Discord, ends up on Google, is indexed by Niarja, and so on. So having some of your activity recorded externally is already a longstanding practice, contrary to the post I replied to there.

 

This game is a shared, public sandbox. As a player you do not have a duty to announce everything you do, but neither do you have the right to forbid other players from sharing what they discovered, just because the thing they discovered is something you happened to touch. The people who make the maps have been leaving out deeds as a courtesy, but it's time for that to end.

 

I did a number of treasure hunts over the last few days, and active deeds do get named in the clues. And whenever I had to reorient myself it was a big help to find the nearest deed or guard tower and look it up on the map. Having those on there would have been valuable even without the exploration update. Seriously, having guard towers on the community maps is great.

 

So, you can find the location of deeds on the map dumps by looking at the shape of roads and other marks. You can find the name and location of deeds with the Reveal Settlements spell. You can find deeds by just randomly walking around and waiting for the game to announce in the events window that you entered one, complete with name the moment you cross the border. Deed foundings and disbandings are announced on Twitter and Discord, and with server wide messages. Deeds are not private entities, both by design and in practice. Honestly there should not be an opt-anything, just put everything you find on the map so everyone who actually likes to get off their deed and explore the world can make use of the information collectively gathered by others, just like you explore a world collectively made by others.

 

This was exactly my motivation for wanting a change to the way the Cad maps are done, which is different from all other servers save one.  I was out treasure hunting, attempting to find a deed on the map that was on the highway system that was close to the area I had to hunt for the treasure.  The deeds on the community map were not on the highway system and deeds on the highway system were not on the map.  Having deeds on both Harmony and Cadence now, I was struck by how much better the Harmony community map is and then found out why.   Opting out still gives those who want it the option not to be placed on the community map, however if you use the community map, is it honestly fair for you to use my deed location and not allow me to use yours?  That put aside, i simply believe that an opt out map would benefit the community at large.  I have not included my vote in the tallies, which by now I think is rather obvious, so I'm including it now. I vote yes for opt out.

 

It was mentioned in one comment on this thread that my original question was phrased unfairly and I admit that, however if anything I think it likely did damage to my cause if anything besides, I think folks on this forum are intelligent enough to understand their own position regardless.  I believe the discussions here have generally proven this to be true.

 

The vote is 17/6 with in favor of an opt out map at 17.

 

All of this being brought up, it is still up to Yaga and the Cadence Community map volunteers whether or not this change gets implemented at all.  I am not sure of the total of active deeds on Cadence, however I believe it to be around 125ish, and roughly 500 players recorded on Cad, although those include alts.  There will not be 100% of folks weighing in on this for a few reasons.  Some don't bother with the forums.  Others honestly don't care what how the map is managed.  I know that those who are against are primarily against because of deed raiders.  I would just say that it is very difficult to actually "hide" your deed.  It is easy however to protect a majority of your items from ransacking immediately by simply placing them in a building or underground, so a deed falling and being completely looted one day after is pretty rare.  If you like your things outside, you can secure and lock them.  If you could truly easily just loot and run, there wouldn't be a large magic chest sitting in the middle of the highway still. :)

 

I am going to wait for more votes to come in if they are going to through next Monday,  that would have left this open for one week.  At that point, whatever the outcome, I will ask those involved directly with the Cadence Community map to consider the changes weighed in on here.  I can pretty much assure you that the map keepers I do know don't really have the time to roll all over Cad to map deeds that aren't on the highway system.  I really do appreciate that the discussion has been largely civil and I know this subject has been broached many times in the past, but given the new update, the Community Map could use this change in my personal opinion.

 

 

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1 hour ago, DzhoDzhok said:

 

But as a player, you have an obligation to respect other people's wishes and interests.

 

This whole topic boils down to the fact that those who are "opt-out" just want to make their lives easier. In search of treasure (which negates the efforts of developers in creating interesting content), in looting abandoned settlements. But your desires end where other people's rights begin. Privacy is one of the main rights in normal communities. And your desire to spend 10 minutes less searching for treasure, finding a way, or plundering a settlement faster cannot be more important than the desires of other people to maintain their privacy. That makes all your arguments for "opt-out" irrelevant.

 

Respect other players, and respect game developers.

 

And by the way, the expressions "opt-in" and "opt-out" do not correspond to the meaning of your desires. They mean that a person must initially know that some action will be done that concerns him. And in this case, most players remain in the dark about your arbitrariness.

 

You don't have a right to "privacy" outside of your personal identity in a public MMo sandbox, or any game you actually play honestly.  your deed is announced on founding, announced on disbanding, broadcast on twitter and discord and then ported into Niarja.  your deed is on a public server, anyone who passes by knows your location.  if you fail to maintain upkeep on your deed, your previously deeded land is now wurm land.  your deed may appear on a treasure map.  By even offering opt out, players have an opportunity to remain off the community map.  The one thing in your statement I agree with here, is yes, the entire point of the community map IS to make our wurm lives easier. It's a very useful tool, maintained by volunteers.  if you USE the community map for anything and hold this opinion that is quite hypocritical honestly.  

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32 minutes ago, DzhoDzhok said:

 

But as a player, you have an obligation to respect other people's wishes and interests.

 

Within reason. There is no way to resolve anything but the most trivial situation in such a way that everyone's wishes are respected.

 

32 minutes ago, DzhoDzhok said:

This whole topic boils down to the fact that those who are "opt-out" just want to make their lives easier.

 

Yes, that's the point of most community efforts. We build tunnels and canals so we can get around easier. We build highways for the same reason. We maintain a wiki so it's easier to find out how something works. There are markets run by players, to make it easier to buy and sell. Impalongs get people's gear to decent quality (while having a lot of fun in the process), which makes their lives a lot easier. We also collectively build maps of the servers, making it easier to get around.

 

You say this like "making our lives easier" is a bad thing. It's not. Cooperating to make our lives easier is at the core of some of the very best things in Wurm.

 

32 minutes ago, DzhoDzhok said:

In search of treasure (which negates the efforts of developers in creating interesting content),

 

There is zero chance the developers didn't have the community maps in mind when making the treasure update. They provided a map dump of the test server, which was frequently referred to in the testing threads. People discussed how it would be easier on live.

 

And, having done a number of maps over the past few days, I can conclusively say that it feels most fun when the stuff the map clues refer to are on the community map. There is plenty of challenge in matching the maps to the world, in navigating the world, in planning routes, in fighting enemies, and so on. On the other hand, there was a tower that was not on the community map that I spent over two and a half hours searching for, in hilly terrain. That was getting pretty frustrating. So no, it doesn't negate the efforts of the developers, the content appears to be tuned around it.

 

32 minutes ago, DzhoDzhok said:

in looting abandoned settlements.

 

The looters already know where you live.

 

32 minutes ago, DzhoDzhok said:

But your desires end where other people's rights begin. Privacy is one of the main rights in normal communities. And your desire to spend 10 minutes less searching for treasure, finding a way, or plundering a settlement faster cannot be more important than the desires of other people to maintain their privacy. That makes all your arguments for "opt-out" irrelevant.

 

You need to have privacy in order to maintain it. And you don't have it. What you have is the idea that somehow, if your deed's name is not on a map, you are invisible. This is on the level of kids thinking they can't be seen if they cover their eyes. Your deed is out there for everyone to find and can be discovered in a multitude of ways, and regularly is. Both the location and name of your deed are completely public.

 

The people who are searching for treasure, are out hunting, are navigating to a rift, are looking for a new spot to live, are finding a new mount or fresh livestock, are searching for uniques, are harvesting what's in season, are visiting a friend, are looking for markets, or are just exploring and seeing the sights? Those people are actually playing the game, and they all benefit from sharing landmarks and other navigational info, just like we'd have done in real life in a setting like this.

 

32 minutes ago, DzhoDzhok said:

 

Respect other players, and respect game developers.

 

What you want gives you no actual benefit while making things worse for other players. I see no reason to respect that. That does not mean I don't respect you as a person, but this particular idea is pants.

 

32 minutes ago, DzhoDzhok said:

And by the way, the expressions "opt-in" and "opt-out" do not correspond to the meaning of your desires. They mean that a person must initially know that some action will be done that concerns him. And in this case, most players remain in the dark about your arbitrariness.

 

I'm advocating for an opt-nothing. People can put whatever they want on a map, and share it with whoever they want.

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1 hour ago, Lisimba said:

What you want gives you no actual benefit while making things worse for other players. I see no reason to respect that. That does not mean I don't respect you as a person, but this particular idea is pants.

In your understanding, you need to respect only what brings you benefits?

 

1 hour ago, Serzane said:

By even offering opt out, players have an opportunity to remain off the community map.

It doesn't matter to me that I can unmark my deed. It is important for me that someone decides for me initially whether my deed will be marked or not.

 

1 hour ago, Lisimba said:

There is no way to resolve anything but the most trivial situation in such a way that everyone's wishes are respected.

So you decided not to respect the majority of the community, but to do what is more convenient for you?

 

1 hour ago, Lisimba said:

There is zero chance the developers didn't have the community maps in mind when making the treasure update.

Did they personally tell you this?

 

1 hour ago, Lisimba said:

You need to have privacy in order to maintain it.

People have their privacy until someone will add their deeds on community map without permission. That level of privacy people wants. Is it so hard to understand? Even if their deed will be on community map for 10 minutes, their desire for privacy will be violated. You can't be half pregnant.

 

I will write this again. You (17 players) can't decide for all comunity (>600 players). Unless you asked all and everyone what they want, the desision you will make in thread irrelevant. People may have a thousand reasons to not to be on the map and you have only two to forcemark them there - loot faster and not lost in the woods. And they don't have to explain you why they don't want to. The community map already have a rule that only mayor can add deed to the map. And that rule was written because people decide so.

As long as you use the official forum of the gaming community, you must follow this rule and respect it.

 

P.S. There is no democracy here. This is an authoritarian system under the leadership of GM and moderators. Read the rules. Therefore voting is doubly meaningless.

 

P.P.S. When i integrate my deed in highway system there was no rule that my deed will be marked on official forum community map without my permission. And because of that you can't use highways system as a reason to mark all deed connected to it. And, as i said before, even in game players can be connected to highways system, but hide their deeds from the list. So that means that they want privacy

Edited by DzhoDzhok

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2 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

Did they personally tell you this?

I think this is a little obtuse. The devs give us map dumps which are widely known and used for the community maps hosted by yaga for years now, publicly posted and shared in official forums, on official discord, on the internet, and in the actual game.

And when the devs beta-tested the treasure hunting mechanic, they released a map dump for the testers to use while treasure hunting.

If you want to split hairs, then maybe Lisimba was wrong in saying there is "zero" chance that the devs didn't think about community maps, perhaps it's more like 0.0001% chance.  

 

2 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

P.S. There is no democracy here. This is an authoritarian system under the leadership of GM and moderators. Read the rules. Therefore voting is doubly meaningless.

 

Well, when it comes to a community-run resource, it's nice to have a vote in that community isn't it? GMs or Mods are free to delete all community map related threads and try to make use/sharing of them illegal, yes, and honestly whoever has control over updating the maps can even do whatever they want if they're okay with people getting angry or annoyed at them. The vote is for courtesy, whether that is meaningless or not. 

 

 

 

As another aside, in my travels I have found about 10+ un-mapped deed owners online in Harmony and asked (as courtesy) if it was cool to post their deeds for the community map.

Only 1 asked me to wait because they wanted to finish building their deed more, then post it later.

Every single other has said variations of "Yes, add it"; "Why haven't i been added to the map already yet?"; or "Okay, i don't care".

 

I'm still inclined to believe that the people who strongly care about keeping their deed off any map would use their ability to Opt Out. :)

Edited by Lovelie
sorry, spelled your name wrong Lisimba ^^
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11 hours ago, Serzane said:

however if you use the community map, is it honestly fair for you to use my deed location and not allow me to use yours?

OMG, If the Person A don't aware there is a third party map, Person A don't even know Person A can allow u to use Person A's deed location or not, not to mention whether it's fair or unfair honestly. 
Instead, If Person B upload Person A's deed name to a third party map that Person A didn't aware of, even if just type the x,y coordinates which is not a feature in-game, Person A later find out Person A's info got upload to a third party map that Person A don't want to share it. I believe Person B violated the privacy of Person A. Imagine people order pizza to ur house by upload ur address to the worst pizza restaurant without noticing u.

Opt-in provide an opportunity to ask the mayor's will and be responsible to let the mayor aware. To show u care about what the players are thinking. This is a very important to make a game succeed. Especially Cadence is being advertise to attract newbie and newbie mostly didn't aware of anything, such as third party programs.

I believe that's why we have DO NOT POST DEEDS THAT AREN'T YOURS OR HAVE APPROVAL TO POST BY MAYOR, IF you find your deed has been added without consent, please post here, policy

in the first place. 

 

9 hours ago, Serzane said:

By even offering opt out, players have an opportunity to remain off the community map.

Opt-in also provide players to have an opportunity to remain off the community map. The different is Opt-in care about the people(e.g. newbie) who are clueless about the third party map and the people who stay silence or refuse to give any attentions to a third party program. Cannot expect they know they have the opportunity when they aren't aware of the third party map.

 

12 hours ago, Lisimba said:

This game is a shared, public sandbox. As a player you do not have a duty to announce everything you do, but neither do you have the right to forbid other players from sharing what they discovered

In any third party program, I believe asking the permission from the person is the best because they might not expect any third party programs that are sharing info in public. Don't know what they will think after they find out. Third party programs ain't compulsive to sign up to play wurm, don't expect people to use it. Some might consider third party programs are some kind of cheating tools and they refuse to give any attention to them.

I believe that's why the third party map owner set up a DO NOT POST DEEDS THAT AREN'T YOURS OR HAVE APPROVAL TO POST BY MAYOR rule to forbid players from sharing what they discovered.

 

11 hours ago, Serzane said:

 I know that those who are against are primarily against because of deed raiders.  I would just say that it is very difficult to actually "hide" your deed.

 

9 hours ago, Serzane said:

your deed is on a public server, anyone who passes by knows your location.

 

9 hours ago, Lisimba said:

What you have is the idea that somehow, if your deed's name is not on a map, you are invisible. This is on the level of kids thinking they can't be seen if they cover their eyes. Your deed is out there for everyone to find and can be discovered in a multitude of ways, and regularly is. Both the location and name of your deed are completely public.

It's very easy to hide ur deed name on a third party map. Just vote Opt-in. I don't think people are expected to hide their deed in-game since this is a MMO but might not expected to show their deed name on a third party map. And we are talking about hiding name on third party map, not hiding in-game.

 

12 hours ago, Lisimba said:

Deeds are not private entities, both by design and in practice. Honestly there should not be an opt-anything

 

9 hours ago, Lisimba said:

I'm advocating for an opt-nothing. People can put whatever they want on a map, and share it with whoever they want.

Is that a new option called opt-nothing to add now? We got three choices? Opt-in, Opt-out and Opt-nothing?

 

Edited by Coach
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Kind of tired of commenting honestly, but to respond to the post right above.  Hey I was being sarcasticly snarky with my comment (mainly because I've felt like I've received a bit of snark, my bad) about fairness in using a community map.  it is a community map after all.  My goal with this entire thread is simple to make the map better for all.

 

to the second comment, it's also easy to opt out.  people have done that quite easily on the other islands.

 

I'm going to just do my best to track the votes moving forward and let everyone else try to change people's opinions that aren't going to be changed.

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8 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

I will write this again. You (17 players) can't decide for all comunity (>600 players). Unless you asked all and everyone what they want, the desision you will make in thread irrelevant. People may have a thousand reasons to not to be on the map and you have only two to forcemark them there - loot faster and not lost in the woods. And they don't have to explain you why they don't want to. The community map already have a rule that only mayor can add deed to the map. And that rule was written because people decide so.

As long as you use the official forum of the gaming community, you must follow this rule and respect it.

I don't think anyone is pretending to vote in favor on behalf of the whole community, this is a proposal which means its inviting discussion, not forcing a specific decision either way.

 

Regarding the thousand reasons people have to not be on the map please could you elaborate? I would also like to correct you on the two reasons for all deeds being on the map as I can think of a few more in addition.

 

Help exploring the map - often people get lost while exploring and coming across a deed not on the community map is really no help here, with an opt-out policy its highly likely a lost player can check the map and see where they are based on the deed they have come across while exploring.

 

New Players - If new players were to view the community map this would be much more inviting when it comes to allowing them to find a new spot to build, obviously it may not be 100% up to date but they can see a spot they can aim for rather than wandering around for hours and probably not picking a particularly good spot when they finally do find one.

 

Improved Community Events - In particular for Slayings which do not always spawn in easy locations, having all deeds on the map will make it much easier to advertise and direct people to public slayings.

 

Locating friends - "Hey can you help me out? I'm near to this settlement" "sure! Let me just check on the community map where I need to go then I'll head over"

 

I personally have not taken part in the new Treasure Map content, nor do I rush over to loot deeds when they disband. I was also going to avoid putting a definitive point of view forward on this but I think at this stage I would say yes I am in favor of a opt-out community map.

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8 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

In your understanding, you need to respect only what brings you benefits?

 

Think about it. You aren't respecting the desire of other people to build a complete map of the server because of a perceived benefit it brings you not to be mapped. We can't both get what we want. That's why this discussion exists. Framing this as who respects what is meaningless.

 

8 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

So you decided not to respect the majority of the community, but to do what is more convenient for you?

 

You don't get to claim people that haven't weighed in on this as part of your majority.

 

Lovelie's sample a few posts back suggests 9 out of 10 people are fine with it (some even wondering why they weren't on there yet), and the other 1 out of 10 are fine if delayed a bit. That won't be the real numbers either, sure, but it heavily suggests that the vast majority is on the side of mapping everything.

 

8 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

Did they personally tell you this?

 

Go look in the testing threads.

 

8 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

People have their privacy until someone will add their deeds on community map without permission. That level of privacy people wants. Is it so hard to understand? Even if their deed will be on community map for 10 minutes, their desire for privacy will be violated. You can't be half pregnant.

 

Refer to my previous post on why that does not, in fact, give you privacy. It's nothing more than a security blanket.

 

And yeah, I understand that you don't like to be on the map, but I weigh that against the benefits for everyone else to have a good, complete map. And since you don't gain anything but a false sense of privacy, but the community gains a lot from having a good map, that brings me down on the side of mapping everything.

 

8 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

I will write this again. You (17 players) can't decide for all comunity (>600 players). Unless you asked all and everyone what they want, the desision you will make in thread irrelevant. People may have a thousand reasons to not to be on the map

 

I've only seen "I'm worried about raiders when my deed falls". Raiders already know where you live.

 

I had already mapped out many deeds in my general area before the exploration update, and I'm not even a raider. It's just fun to explore occasionally and to mark the things I find.

 

8 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

and you have only two to forcemark them there - loot faster and not lost in the woods.

 

"Not lost in the woods" is a grabbag that itself contains thousands of reasons. Think of all of the gameplay that doesn't involve sitting on a deed. I listed a bunch in my previous post.

 

8 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

And they don't have to explain you why they don't want to. The community map already have a rule that only mayor can add deed to the map. And that rule was written because people decide so.

 

Yeah, the whole point of this thread is to change that rule.

 

8 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

As long as you use the official forum of the gaming community, you must follow this rule and respect it.

 

The forum is just where it's organized. The maps are a player run resource. The rules for them are player made, and can be changed by the same players.

 

8 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

P.S. There is no democracy here. This is an authoritarian system under the leadership of GM and moderators. Read the rules. Therefore voting is doubly meaningless.

 

I just checked the rules, to be sure, and there's nothing in there about sharing map info.

 

Rules: 

 

 

8 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

P.P.S. When i integrate my deed in highway system there was no rule that my deed will be marked on official forum community map

 

There was also no rule that said this would not happen in the future.

 

8 hours ago, DzhoDzhok said:

without my permission. And because of that you can't use highways system as a reason to mark all deed connected to it. And, as i said before, even in game players can be connected to highways system, but hide their deeds from the list. So that means that they want privacy

 

It means they don't want to be findable via a highway marker, which is itself probably something that should be removed, at least on PvE servers.

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2 hours ago, Coach said:
12 hours ago, Serzane said:

however if you use the community map, is it honestly fair for you to use my deed location and not allow me to use yours?

OMG, If the Person A don't aware there is a third party map, Person A don't even know Person A can allow u to use Person A's deed location or not, not to mention whether it's fair or unfair honestly. 

1 hour ago, Serzane said:

Hey I was being sarcasticly snarky with my comment (mainly because I've felt like I've received a bit of snark, my bad) about fairness in using a community map.  it is a community map after all.  My goal with this entire thread is simple to make the map better for all.

I know, i was just saying about if the sentence change to: if you are clueless about the community map, is it honestly fair for you to use my deed location and not allow me to use yours?
It won't make sense because they also clueless about the opportunity to forbid people to use their deed location. Opt-in is about concerning the clueless people. Ur sarcastic snarky comment obviously didn't concern the clueless people, mostly newbie. That's why i made that sentence. Some people just don't use the community map because of clueless.

 

Hey, we got common. My goal is the same as ur goal that u have just mentioned. 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, HawkHawk said:

Regarding the thousand reasons people have to not be on the map please could you elaborate? I would also like to correct you on the two reasons for all deeds being on the map as I can think of a few more in addition.

 

Another one: it's doubly useful for archaeology.

 

Getting around in general is important for obvious reasons. But when doing archaeology in a new area, I like to find potential targets via the community maps by looking for the "footprints" of villages with no name attached. Those will be either disbanded and therefore a source for archaeology, or a deed that hasn't been put on the map yet. If the map is more complete, it becomes easier to find good arch sites.

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43 minutes ago, HawkHawk said:

Help exploring the map - often people get lost while exploring and coming across a deed not on the community map is really no help here, with an opt-out policy its highly likely a lost player can check the map and see where they are based on the deed they have come across while exploring.

New Players - If new players were to view the community map this would be much more inviting when it comes to allowing them to find a new spot to build, obviously it may not be 100% up to date but they can see a spot they can aim for rather than wandering around for hours and probably not picking a particularly good spot when they finally do find one.

Improved Community Events - In particular for Slayings which do not always spawn in easy locations, having all deeds on the map will make it much easier to advertise and direct people to public slayings.

Locating friends - "Hey can you help me out? I'm near to this settlement" "sure! Let me just check on the community map where I need to go then I'll head over"

On 6/23/2022 at 1:21 PM, Coach said:

4)Increase the amount of people to raid a disbanded deed before the friends of the owner come to save the deed because it increases the amount of people to find and raid a deed more easier and faster. Increase the efficiency to raid people to punish the disbanded deed owner for not putting wurm on the first priority. 

I like the all those benefits from an Opt-out map. But I respect the right to stay silence or refuse to give any attentions to a third party program and the people(e.g. newbie) who are the clueless about the right to make their deed name private or not. So i choose Opt-in in final. Also, some people consider the benefits are some kind of cheating because they are only sign up for wurm, but not sign up for a third party program to play wurm.

Edited by Coach

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I think a lot of people travel around the map and check on deeds anyway, you can see a deed is potentially running out of upkeep by how much damage walls are taking. A deed may not be on the community map but that doesn't mean someone is not watching it waiting for it to disband so they can take the loot.

 

While it doesn't save livestock its worth keeping in mind items secured in locked buildings are still protected until the building takes enough damage to lose its permissions, giving time for the original owner to salvage the contents, or perhaps even a friend if they have or can get permission.

 

I would admit "private" deeds not on the map may be harder to find for raiders, but we're in the territory of speculation and what-ifs at this stage. Sure if your friends deed disbands you can run over and get the loot, but who is to say other people do not know the location regardless of if its on the community map or not? Also what if that deed was to go pop just after bedtime? It would probably have been looted by someone on the other side of the world by the time your awake and realize whats happened.

 

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