Cadence Community Map Proposal

[Nordlys 1,425]

I just cant see any reason anyone would want to know where my current deed is, except the actual moment it disbands from upkeep so one could go there and loot whatever i left behind.

If it was a map of old deeds that people need for treasures or archaeology id understand it.

I can see the argument of looking for places to settle, but this would also be countered the moment a deed disbands, but is not removed from the map.

 

[Coach 196]

On 6/28/2021 at 1:02 AM, Maiya said:

I dont see any reson to a deed-owner should need to keep track of maps and ask to be taken off 

I prefer that those that want to be on a map they ask to be there  

 

On 7/4/2021 at 8:52 AM, Pingster said:

There's a lot of people who wish their privacy to be respected, and you can not justify it by saying they can opt out, if they never agreed to use the service in the first place.

 

On 6/29/2021 at 5:37 PM, Minnie said:

Players should not be required to opt out.  The burden should be on *you* to obtain consent from mayors before publishing a deed's location.  The majority of Cad deed owners will not even see this thread, and will have no idea that you've taken it upon youself to make their location public without their consent. 

 

There are plenty of reasons people don't want their deeds on a community map.  One is that if a player takes a break from the game, gets distracted by RL and forgets to add upkeep and the deed falls, other players will consult the map the moment the disband is announced, head over, and grab everything that is not nailed down.  If someone wants to try and avoid this type of situation by keeping their location private (or if they have other reasons for their decision), that is their prerogative.  Please don't mess with it.

 

On 7/13/2021 at 7:03 PM, TheTrickster said:

Arguments that people playing an MMO shouldn't want privacy are not really valid.  Individuals have individual priorities and approaches.  An individual player's right to do what they want ends where they encroach on another player.  A deed belongs to a particular player, and they have the right to decide whether or not it is publicly listed or displayed.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 5:16 AM, SirMuttley said:

I find it humorous that folks like to pass this off as a grandiose adventure map, when in reality it's just a map to enable raiders to destroy a fallen deed within hours... even before the friends and allies of the deed owner have a chance to reach out or help. Call it what it is guys, a scavengers treasure map.

 

On 9/9/2021 at 12:21 PM, TheTrickster said:

On 9/9/2021 at 4:26 AM, Synoeca said:

As an explorer I am drawn to unmarked locations on maps.  I love finding beautiful little nooks in the wilderness and I'm probably not the only one. 

Same here.  In fact I have found some wonderful areas on Cadence that I WON'T be identifying to put on a map, simply because IMO they are better as discoveries not destinations.

 

8 hours ago, Tpikol said:

10 hours ago, Coach said:

But not ready for people to spot it on third party map. And idk what people would think if their deed appear on a third party map without noticing that.

then you and those other people can opt out, to stop it from ever appearing.

People who keep checking the map can opt out. However, people who don't check third party program would not stop their deed from ever appearing because they didn't even notice that.

A third party program is an option. It's not a compulsory to play wurm. I don't think there is any agreements to sign that people must use third party program to play wurm, when they press the play button.  So people should not expect every wurm people to check the third party map.   

 

[Serzane 34]

4 minutes ago, Nordlys said:

I just cant see any reason anyone would want to know where my current deed is, except the actual moment it disbands from upkeep so one could go there and loot whatever i left behind.

If it was a map of old deeds that people need for treasures or archaeology id understand it.

I can see the argument of looking for places to settle, but this would also be countered the moment a deed disbands, but is not removed from the map.

 

 

Just to provide some info:  Disbanded deeds are systematically removed from the Cad map when notices about disbanding are posted in Discord.  Personally, I thought about proposing an addition to the community map of a filtered disbanded deeds section, however imho this defeats the purpose of archaeology and wouldn't really be in the spirit of the update, not to mention the amount of work that would take the map updaters.  I really think it comes down to more of an ability to orienteer while out looking for treasure, not so much putting you right on the spot.  For example, yesterday I was out looking for treasure.  I was on the highway system and there were a multitude of deeds in a 4 grid area that were not on the map, but on the highway system.  These deeds obviously didn't care about being found, but it made it much more difficult to put myself in the general spot to go on my search.   I'm pretty thrilled that this thread is getting some attention and some much needed debate.  I think that in the spirit of fairness, this should go for about a week, maybe a bit less and then I can determine the % in favor/against and the "election" can conclude and if changes are to be made, they get made.  Of course, not everyone on cad reads these forums and will be voting which may seem a bit unfair, however even in modern democracies not everybody votes so....   I do hope everyone understands I am proposing this only based on my experiences on both Har and Cad so far and that anyone not wishing to be found via the highway system and/or a community map will still be able to opt out and in fact anyone here who has voted no, automatically would not be included on the Community map.  I'm doing this with the best of intentions simply to try and help folks better orient themselves on Cad.

[Tpikol 1,057]

9 minutes ago, Coach said:

people who don't check third party program would not stop their deed from ever appearing because they didn't even notice that.

if you are never going to notice how is it hurting you? your deed will be there in the map dump with no name anyway. no matter what happens with the comunity map.

 

9 minutes ago, Coach said:

I don't think there is any agreements to sign that people must use third party program to play wurm, when they press the play button.  So people should not expect every wurm people to check the third party map.   

then dont check it, where is the problem? map or no map no deed is ever secret since they started releasing map dumps from after server openings, and that fight was lost many years ago.

 

21 minutes ago, Nordlys said:

I just cant see any reason anyone would want to know where my current deed is, except the actual moment it disbands from upkeep so one could go there and loot whatever i left behind.

this will happen anyway, it does all the time. there is no way to stop it.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Tpikol

[Nordlys 1,425]

4 minutes ago, Tpikol said:

this will happen anyway, it does all the time. there is no way to stop it.

I know. I still cant see any other real reason for why anyone would need to know where my deed is. I cant see any other reason for me knowing where your deed is either.

If need people to know where my deed is, now thats another story. I could just put it on the map. 

[Zakiah 66]

Having brought this up in local server chat recently, I personally feel that if a deed is connected to the highway system, and hence very easily findable, then it should appear on the map.  At that point you're not trying to hide by living out in the middle of nowhere; you've made a conscious effort to join the public highway network.

I would be satisfied with just that.  More is a bonus but not necessary IMO.
 

[Tpikol 1,057]

15 minutes ago, Nordlys said:

I know. I still cant see any other real reason for why anyone would need to know where my deed is. I cant see any other reason for me knowing where your deed is either.

If need people to know where my deed is, now thats another story. I could just put it on the map. 

il do what coach did and just copy paste the response to your argument from the other topic.

On 7/5/2021 at 8:03 AM, Vorticella said:

Nobody forces you to keep your deed on or take it off the maps, but when you require opt-in you do force the rest of the community to live with incomplete, outdated, useless maps. That's all there is to it.

thats what everybody loses by having an opt in policy, what does anyone gain? even you said that it doesnt protect you from raiders so what does it do?

[Nordlys 1,425]

1 minute ago, Tpikol said:

il do what coach did and just copy paste the response to your argument from the other topic.

thats what everybody loses by having an opt in policy, what does anyone gain? even you said that it doesnt protect you from raiders so what does it do?

I dont know why you choose to argue with me out of all the people commenting here. I have nothing against being added to the map, i just dont care. Ill disband and move to another place to prevent it if i cared. I just said i cant see a reason for it, other than knowing where to loot.

[SouthPaw 30]

38 minutes ago, Nordlys said:

I know. I still cant see any other real reason for why anyone would need to know where my deed is. I cant see any other reason for me knowing where your deed is either.

If need people to know where my deed is, now thats another story. I could just put it on the map. 

Sometimes I get lost and when run across a deed, nice if i can look on community map and figure out where the hell I am. Now that I been playing for a bit, doesnt happen as often but still happens.

[SouthPaw 30]

my vote., drumroll.... 

 

 

🥁 yes for Opt Out 🥁

Edited June 21, 2022 by SouthPaw

[Coach 196]

56 minutes ago, Tpikol said:

if you are never going to notice how is it hurting you? your deed will be there in the map dump with no name anyway. no matter what happens with the comunity map.

then dont check it, where is the problem? map or no map no deed is ever secret since they started releasing map dumps from after server openings, and that fight was lost many years ago.

Imagine u expect people are respecting ur private info for 10 years. One day u discover ur private info wasn't private at all, it was showing on the third party program for 10 years that u didn't sign up. Does it hurt u then?

Imagine u expect ur card number stay private and secured for 10 years. One day u discover ur card number were showing on the net for 10 years and people were stealing ur money that u didn't notice because u didn't check it. It won't hurt u if u don't check it because u are not aware of it.

But one day u discover it, i guess it hurts? Lost faith in people? There is always a chance to discover it one day.

 

The map dump is official without deed names. The third party program isn't official and may have deed names. A deed name might show who were living there.

 

A third party program is an option. A map dump is compulsory because when u press the play button people just need to deal with whatever the team are dropping. I don't think there are any agreements to sign that people must use third party program to play wurm, when they press the play button.  So people should not expect every wurm people to check the third party map.

Hope people can see the problems and differences. 

[kronoterra 0]

There is a lot to say for sure about how we each play the game. There are also many things we each worry in regards to our hard work. But yeah, being connected to the highways is putting your address out there in public, course that doesn't mean that if you want privacy you have to disconnect form road. The reality is we are all connected and our deed becomes findable. best way to have privacy is making a perimeter wall and that's it. 

The map data is useful for many things, and yes it could be used to less friendly things, yet that can happen at random too. 

[Rayen 43]

I vote for opt-out.

 

This is a 3rd party tool managed by a small team of select individuals, so those that want to be isolated hermits can easily be added to a blacklist of deeds to deny being added to the map.

 

The average player may only be on 3 hours a week, on Fo knows which time zone. That makes it difficult to get approval from a mayor who may be on less than 2% of the time. And what would they notice if people dropped by, anyways? They aren't there to be bothered.

 

I think if we do decide to switch to opt-out, we should have a period where hermits can have their deeds added to the Yaga teams' blacklist so they never get added without consent.

 

Plus this would greatly counter the argument "butT THeRe's NOwHerE 2 deEd!"

[Nordlys 1,425]

54 minutes ago, Zakiah said:

Having brought this up in local server chat recently, I personally feel that if a deed is connected to the highway system, and hence very easily findable, then it should appear on the map.  At that point you're not trying to hide by living out in the middle of nowhere; you've made a conscious effort to join the public highway network.

I would be satisfied with just that.  More is a bonus but not necessary IMO.
 

This "on highway = on map" solution seems to be the best option for everyone imo.

[Serzane 34]

1 minute ago, Nordlys said:

This "on highway = on map" solution seems to be the best option for everyone imo.

 

I know the folks who are updating the Cad Community maps are a bit overwhelmed at the moment fixing the highway system information. While I was intending to hold this thread open for some time, perhaps based on the positive responses so far to an "opt out model" vs the no's...a compromise to the highway system would accomplish what is necessary in and of itself.  i think I'll still wait for more to weigh in since the map folks are busy and then revisit this thought since its a pretty good suggestion.

[Coach 196]

Just now, Nordlys said:

This "on highway = on map" solution seems to be the best option for everyone imo.

It's a conscious choice, to link to highway by the mayor of the deed to join the public, to not link to highway for privacy. Similar idea to Opt-in. This is quite good.

But idk if people only want to be public ingame but expect not to be on a third party map? Maybe they only want to be found from highway but not from map. Showing on highway, hiding on map?

[Tpikol 1,057]

44 minutes ago, Coach said:

Imagine u expect people are respecting ur private info for 10 years. One day u discover ur private info wasn't private at all, it was showing on the third party program for 10 years that u didn't sign up. Does it hurt u then?

imagine you expect very public information about you to be private and it turns out it isnt. does that hurt you? it probably would hurt you, but why did you expect public information to be private? your deed is never private unless you play WU on singleplayer mode.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Coach said:

Maybe they only want to be found from highway but not from map. Showing on highway, hiding on map?

there is no hiding in wurm and there is no such people when it actually happens in other servers there is no people who complain because they expected their deeds to be private because everybody knows that no deed is private in wurm.

 

44 minutes ago, Coach said:

don't think there are any agreements to sign that people must use third party program to play wurm, when they press the play button.  So people should not expect every wurm people to check the third party map.

where is the agreement that says your deeds location is private and cannot be used by others?

 

 

this doesn't have to be only discussed in theory, we have years of opt in maps happening and nobody complaining.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Tpikol

[Coach 196]

35 minutes ago, Tpikol said:

imagine you expect very public information about you to be private and it turns out it isnt. does that hurt you? it probably would hurt you, but why did you expect public information to be private? your deed is never private unless you play WU on singleplayer mode.

there is no hiding in wurm and there is no such people when it actually happens in other servers there is no people who complain because they expected their deeds to be private because everybody knows that no deed is private in wurm.

where is the agreement that says your deeds location is private and cannot be used by others?

I think we need to define what is public and what is private in different situations.

There is no hiding in-game. But there is hiding name in third party map which makes it as private.

What private mean in the third party map is DO NOT POST DEEDS THAT AREN'T YOURS OR HAVE APPROVAL TO POST BY MAYOR. The deed name on the third party map can be private because there is rule to forbidden people to add someone deeds to the third party map without permission.

We are focusing on talking about the privacy on a third party map, not in-game. This whole discussion is about a third party map.

On 12/3/2020 at 5:03 AM, Gawain said:

DO NOT POST DEEDS THAT AREN'T YOURS OR HAVE APPROVAL TO POST BY MAYOR.

IF you find your deed has been added without consent, please post here.

 

[Serzane 34]

As I read the votes so far, the Yes votes are 12, the No votes are 2.  This seems pretty overwhelming in favor of changing to an "opt-out" which would bring Cadence in line with every other NFI community map.

 

A compromise position was mentioned and doin that would turn the vote to nearly unanimous.  That position is to add any deed that is highway connected to the Community Map.  The only thing with doing this, is that those highway connected may still wish to opt out for whatever reason, so honestly with that said, I believe opt out has passed.

 

I know the map keepers have been monitoring this thread.  No, they did not put me up to this, so if you have a bone to pick, its with me.   With that, I am going to communicate to the Map Keepers that they should begin adding deeds to the community map, unless obviously someone opts out.  They can begin with any deed connected to the highway system, although as mentioned earlier they are very busy with some highway corrections that look truly awful to accomplish as the maps use an excel data format that has to be input numerically.

 

I really want to acknowledge the map keepers as well as Yaga who created the system and who has surely saved me from certain death repeatedly.

 

If you haven't weighed in yet, you still can and if this vote goes back in favor of an opt in model, it can always change back.

 

Thanks for all of your thoughtful comments and the civil discussion even with the disagreements.  I am sure the forum mods appreciated that.

 

Best MMO Ever.  

[Minnie 178]

15 hours ago, Serzane said:

Yes for "Shall we change the Cadence Community Map to an opt out model?"

 

No for "No, leave me alone, I am not to be found, ever,"

 

You realize that this phrasing you’ve chosen is not exactly neutral, right?  That you’re putting a negative connotation on the choice to vote no?  And that because of this, the poll results don’t necessarily mean all that much?

 

Let’s imagine you’d phrased it differently.  For instance, you could have said this:

 

Question:  Shall we change the Cadence Community Map to an opt out model?

• I vote Yes.  It would benefit me if things were this way, and that's pretty much all I care about.  But perhaps my views would be best expressed in visual form:

 

• I vote No. Just as I wouldn’t be too thrilled you walked past my house, saw my name on the mailbox, and took it upon yourself to publicly post my address, I am not in favor of this proposal.  Would it make any difference to me in the above scenario if you oh-so-graciously bestowed upon me the choice to opt out of my address being publicly posted?  No, it would not.  Especially since I may very well have zero idea that any of this is even going on.   And especially since if I go on sabbatical, have a family emergency, etc. and forget to pay my rent, y'all can just pop on my by place and rob me blind since you know exactly where to find it.  Not to mention, whatever my reason might be for wanting to keep my deed location to myself, it's valid.  Valuing privacy is not a crime or a character defect.

 

Alternatively, you could have said the following (preferably without all the preamble concerning your personal opinion and snarky comments about witness protection initiatives):

 

Question:  Shall we change the Cadence Community Map to an opt out model?

• Yes
• No

[Tpikol 1,057]

do you know that this is diferent in harmony,melody and almost all other servers? do you see a lot people complaining about having no privacy on harmony,melody,deliverance etc? they have the same privacy we have here now, which is none.

[Minnie 178]

16 minutes ago, Serzane said:

As I read the votes so far, the Yes votes are 12, the No votes are 2.  This seems pretty overwhelming in favor of changing to an "opt-out"

 

As long as we assume there are 14 deed owners on Cad.

 

Edit:  And as long as we assume everyone who voted is a Cad deed owner.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Minnie

[Serzane 34]

Guilty.  Do I think it actually influenced those voting.  No, sorry.

 

[Serzane 34]

4 minutes ago, Minnie said:

 

As long as we assume there are 14 deed owners on Cad.

 

if only everybody voted in a Democracy.  i left the door open to this changing back should votes go in favor of a no.  so is it 12/3 now? you didn't say.

[Hegemon 38]

I vote no.            I would like to ask the official Wurm team to take steps to ensure that my game play is not represented beyond the official game without my consent.   You do not have it.