elentari

Would you like to add maps MOI's for other action types? (ex. carpentry, smithing, etc)

Would you like to add maps MOI's for other action types? (ex. carpentry, smithing, etc)  

55 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to add maps MOI's for other action types? (ex. carpentry, smithing, etc)

    • Yes I would like them.
      31
    • No, I prefer the system as is.
      24


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18 hours ago, Odynn said:

 

And that's where the whole system is wrong. Yes, we could bruteforce them with alts, untill the devs decide it's an exploit and nerf it forward, making it even harder for players playing the game the "normal' way to have a chance at them.

 

Might as well fix the system right now and get something decent for everyone, instead of pushing for more abuses. Traders got nuked into the ground because they were abused by a handful of players, leaving a large amount of us with nothing but loss. Rares were also nerfed  into the ground because players abused the heck of the creation roll. Sorcery items were wiped from uniques because someone through treachery and cheating manage to get all of them within a few months, leaving the rest of us trying to get them through years now. And we have so many more issues like that...

We shouldn't validate a system preaching for abuse but fix it instead and open it to a larger player base... and if possible make it less dependant on the RNG.

I agree and exactly why i suggested that and i am guessing exactly why the OP opened this topic for

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11 hours ago, Tor said:

I agree and exactly why i suggested that and i am guessing exactly why the OP opened this topic for

Pretty much. 

 

The core issue with RNG is that it's the most unrewarding game design ever thought of. 

 

RNG isn't "earning" something. It's just getting lucky. Over and over again so you feel special. It's a dopamine hit nothing more. 

 

I don't feel I am "earning" caskets. I feel like the game is throwing caskets at me to soften the pain from queuing up so many prayer actions for 2 weeks now. And the reason for that is my main has only gotten 1 casket, while my alt has gotten 12 from praying. I don't see any reason at this point to even bother with the rest of the skills like mining/ digging / foraging, etc. 

 

I want a game design revolving around effort, earning, doing stuff that isn't RNG and isn't down to sheer luck.

 

For me at the moment "earning" caskets is pretty much the definition of insanity. Doing the same action over and over again...

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Why not just play the game? 

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3 hours ago, Archaed said:

Why not just play the game? 

 

I wish you took your own advice before complaining and wanting guaranteed casket every 5th failed roll for mining, the easiest to be afk/botted action and labeling a least Afkable and actually having to pay attention actions in the game as abusable.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Tor said:

 

I wish you took your own advice before complaining and wanting guaranteed casket every 5th failed roll for mining, the easiest to be afk/botted action and labeling a least Afkable and actually having to pay attention actions in the game as abusable.

Wat

 

You have both misinterpreted my post, and also put words in my mouth about something being abuseable. 

 

Are you sure you're reading my posts? 

Edited by Archaed

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The four that come to mind that could benefit from MOI rolls -

 

Woodcutting is an obvious no brainer.

Fishing.

Drops on Monsters (not animals).

forestry (gathering from trees/bushes).

 

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On 6/22/2022 at 8:28 PM, elentari said:

Pretty much. 

 

The core issue with RNG is that it's the most unrewarding game design ever thought of. 

 

RNG isn't "earning" something. It's just getting lucky. Over and over again so you feel special. It's a dopamine hit nothing more. 

 

I don't feel I am "earning" caskets. I feel like the game is throwing caskets at me to soften the pain from queuing up so many prayer actions for 2 weeks now. And the reason for that is my main has only gotten 1 casket, while my alt has gotten 12 from praying. I don't see any reason at this point to even bother with the rest of the skills like mining/ digging / foraging, etc. 

 

I want a game design revolving around effort, earning, doing stuff that isn't RNG and isn't down to sheer luck.

 

For me at the moment "earning" caskets is pretty much the definition of insanity. Doing the same action over and over again...

While I agree, I don't think wurm could do it any other way efficiently.

 

Although honestly it feels like this should have been rolled up into the archeology profession as treasure hunting, which is digging for clues of treasure.  Would make sense.

 

Anyway, I would say it rolls in quite nicely with the existing game.  I have to do these tasks here and there, get a map, and I save them for the weekend.

 

Works out great for a side distraction.  I think some people want to do just treasure maps 24/7 and that's not really what they're meant to be.

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Posted (edited)

I'd love to get maps while improving or creating items.

I mean, even more profit from already profitable rare-creation abusable activities?

Yeah, don't do that, lol.

On a more generic lore-related kind of thinking, i'd keep that to most of the activities that are usually done outside of houses and could be on some level at least vaguely associated with exploration.
Finding a map while you are sitting in a house doing repetitive improves doesn't make much sense.
Sure, woodcutting makes sense.

Edited by Davih

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Finding a treasure map while imping/crafting is too much of a stretch for the rp perspective. Say what you want about video games don't need to be realistic etc but there is a certain framework that has to exist in order for us to accept and be immersed in an imaginary world. Woodcutting is a stretch imo, but I suppose someone could have hidden the chest up in the branches or something. To me it makes sense that the maps are found the way they are now.

 

However I do like the idea of having them drop from humanoid mobs, especially at rifts. Even butchering non humanoid hostile mobs could work, eg. you could find it in a bear's stomach while butchering.

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27 minutes ago, Vorticella said:

Woodcutting is a stretch imo, but I suppose someone could have hidden the chest up in the branches or something.

 

Might also be in a hollow bit of the tree, that's a common fantasy trope. Or from some earth that got disturbed when the tree dropped.

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17 hours ago, sweatygopher said:

The four that come to mind that could benefit from MOI rolls -

 

Fishing.

 

The maps are already gained via fishing

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On 6/24/2022 at 8:57 AM, Vorticella said:

Finding a treasure map while imping/crafting is too much of a stretch for the rp perspective. Say what you want about video games don't need to be realistic etc but there is a certain framework that has to exist in order for us to accept and be immersed in an imaginary world. Woodcutting is a stretch imo, but I suppose someone could have hidden the chest up in the branches or something. To me it makes sense that the maps are found the way they are now.

 

However I do like the idea of having them drop from humanoid mobs, especially at rifts. Even butchering non humanoid hostile mobs could work, eg. you could find it in a bear's stomach while butchering.

 

I just wanted to post in support of this point about immersion, or believability versus impossibility.

 

I've seen a lot of people over the years using some form of that argument: "Stop saying this would never happen! It's a fantasy game!"

There's a huge difference between a writer or game designer asking us to believe in something impossible, and asking us to believe in something stupid.

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3 hours ago, Sheffie said:

There's a huge difference between a writer or game designer asking us to believe in something impossible, and asking us to believe in something stupid.

As a Terry Pratchett fan I can tell you the only difference between those two is how much work and humor you can put into them to make them believable. Anything is possible if you write it in with care. 

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I'd have liked to see this poll in maybe 4-6 month or longer time instead of now. This is the 1st part of exploring, lets play it as it is for now, then lets get the essential bugs fixed we already know (like missing moves in the chess game etc), and likely will find a few more of too.Then allow time to get it fine-tuned if needed by the developers as it is, wait for the next part of exploring - see what that brings. 

 

As of now i've voted to keep as is, it's all still very new. I'm sure as the dust settles players will return to their normal play instead of hunting maps because its new. Maps and caskets will find their way to the players eventually, through the rng, trade etc - over time :).

 

Let's not forget it's treasure maps either, i've not had much luck sofar. Plenty MOI's but only 2 caskets sofar (other than journal caskets), but i'm sure my luck will change - if i got a map on every MOI i'd probably not think of it as a treasure map at all.

 

Because of this I agree with Archaed here

 

On 6/23/2022 at 2:39 AM, Archaed said:

Why not just play the game? 

 

 

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On 6/22/2022 at 6:28 PM, elentari said:

The core issue with RNG is that it's the most unrewarding game design ever thought of. 

 

Au contraire! RNG is psychologically the most motivating reward system a game can have, according to the linked article, which says "Players will play the most consistently when they are on a variable-ratio schedule because they know that some kind of a reward should happen sometime soon."

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/using-psychology-games-depth-perspective-troy-dunniway

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To quote the article you just linked and pretty much also summarizes why Wurm's current RNG leads to this more often than not. (aka quitting)

 

"The moral here is that reducing the level of reinforcement is not very motivating for players and can act as an impetus for them to quit the game. This must be done carefully and gradually, or there could be an undesirable backlash. Sudden loss of reward is very aversive and should be avoided whenever possible." - 

 

Wurm doesn't seem to do "...sudden loss of reward should be avoided whenever possible". It doesn't care if it doesn't reward players. It can "punish" a player by rewarding his effort with nothing. Or can randmly reward a player for his minimal efforts. 

 

And RNG Isn't the most rewarding system a game can have fyi. The most rewarding system is a hand crafted one where rewards are carefully balanced. See old school RPG's like Gothic 2, Fallout 1 or 2 (or even New vegas) where rewards were hand crafted so if you entered a "high level area" at a lower level but managed to survived it, you usually got a powerful armor set, a weapon, a scroll or rare potions. You were rewarded for taking risk and using your player skills and RL skills (problem solving). 

 

RNG is quite the opposite, the worst "rewarding" system possible since it's actually the easiest and also dehumanized system that can be coded. An algorithm decides if you get lucky or not. Not a game designer. Not a person. There's nothing human in RNG. 

 

RNG is the opposite of a meritocratic hand crafted rewarding system. 

 

It's also the main mechanic that enforces negative behavior found in gacha games, gambling games, casinos and generally the worst type of predatory behaviour in the world.

 

I'll stop.

 

I am tired of repeating the same argument.

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"Rewarding" can mean different things.

 

RNG is certainly the most addictive mechanic. But it's usually not the most fun or fulfilling.

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3 hours ago, Keridwyn said:

 

 

Au contraire! RNG is psychologically the most motivating reward system a game can have, according to the linked article, which says "Players will play the most consistently when they are on a variable-ratio schedule because they know that some kind of a reward should happen sometime soon."

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/using-psychology-games-depth-perspective-troy-dunniway

what if that reward never comes or you end up having worst rng and spend more time, burnout and retention is a thing

you cant put a spinner bottle and kill half of your population by chance, sure.. if you're lazy, that's a job well done..

but else.. there's plenty of ways to keep things interesting and handle the unpleasant situations

 

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3 hours ago, Finnn said:

what if that reward never comes or you end up having worst rng and spend more time, burnout and retention is a thing

you cant put a spinner bottle and kill half of your population by chance, sure.. if you're lazy, that's a job well done..

but else.. there's plenty of ways to keep things interesting and handle the unpleasant situations

 

Mate, you've gotten like, 10 maps lol

 

What are you saying the reward never comes 

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2 hours ago, Archaed said:

Mate, you've gotten like, 10 maps lol

 

What are you saying the reward never comes 

who's talking about maps

he's linking an article and I spin the "every rule.. have an exception.."

context... context... read, troll later

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Well, lets look at the actions that are going to give you a treasure map...

 

-----

Farming/Harvesting - Rares are useless and have no value


Botanize/Forage Actions - Two stub skills that offer nothing with regards to rares (or much else!)


Digging - A chore at the best of times, and once your deed is done you usually avoid it - rares are 99% worthless


Mining/Surface Mining - A skill that is rewarding in its own right, rares are of dubious value though as there is a lot of processing steps between  the rare and the outcome


Investigating Archeology Sites - This one is the odd one out, rares here often have great value.  Then again, its a skill that involves some travel.


Fishing/Dredging - Rares here have 0 value; also the skill does not have much use


Praying - pointless skill that offers little, 0 value in rares

-----

 

Barring one skill (maybe 2 if you consider mining rares good, which is debatable), treasure maps essentially appear to acting as a buff to skills that offer pointless rares.  Adding it to most crafting skills I would be againt, as most crafting rares are a valuable reward in their own right.

 

However, adding it to fighting/butchering isn't really objectionable as the rares obtained from 99% of butchering are also worthless.

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11 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

However, adding it to fighting/butchering isn't really objectionable as the rares obtained from 99% of butchering are also worthless.

 

Can you get rares from butchering? I've never seen one.

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5 hours ago, Lisimba said:

Can you get rares from butchering? I've never seen one.

Got a rare pelt once. It's not impossible just so randomly difficult. 

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seen it.. it's really rare.. finding good ql rare pelt is lottery... at best....

that alone needs to be reworked so here and there pelt could be rare/supreme/fantastic.. it's not like you're going to create items with it and benefit too much.. it's another improving tool, at that.. and that's non-improveable/maintainable item..

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On 6/25/2022 at 8:19 PM, Elrohiir said:

I'd have liked to see this poll in maybe 4-6 month or longer time instead of now

we just released something that was poorly designed and has some obviously flaws we could fix in a few minutes, but lets wait 6 months first and then maybe we will fix it(screw everybody in the meantime). that mentality is the biggest problem in wurm.

 

On 6/27/2022 at 10:49 PM, Etherdrifter said:

Barring one skill (maybe 2 if you consider mining rares good, which is debatable), treasure maps essentially appear to acting as a buff to skills that offer pointless rares. 

because rare trees or rare rolls where you dmg a tree without cutting it down are SOOOO useful.

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