adolphus

Heavier Penalties / Harder requirements to change religions

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8 hours ago, Benediction said:

Let's get to the Elephant in the room.  Some players, in fact, do think they are entitled to dictate to other players.  It is that simple. They hide it behind the "benefit for the most", and so on.  Asking people to be reasonable and think of others is a very hollow platitude when a month or two ago, a group of priests discussed on Freedom chat casting the Vyn rite,  summoned other priests to participate, and actually cast the rite without permission.   All of them got messages from Sinnjinn banning them from all his unique slayings.  

 

This  captures the hidden attitude and the real problem.  As long as players believe they can, ... what is a good word...   I guess bully  other players well, you're going to have resentment.   I suspect that many people have been treated this way on some occasion or another and are so intimidated that they do not even post here or use another account.  Imagine, that I have to actually use another account to discuss this if I want to keep playing the game consequence free.      This is the real problem

 

 

 

And it's just not because of rites or in game disagreements, it can be as banal reason as agreeing for someone's opinion on the forum. This problem is real for so many years now, so many players left silently just because of the reasons like this.

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9 hours ago, Benediction said:

a group of priests

Come to the old cluster, we just have priest ALTs here!

 

Outsider view here, the priests doing the praying and the casting can't switch without losing a huge chunk of progress (their mana bar).  It's not just mechanic abuse, it's very much unfair.

 

I'd say tax it - free switches once a month, otherwise you pay a 10 silver "tithe" for an instant switch.

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All the well or not so well meant proposals miss the point as they do not help with the core issue. That is the ongoing feud between petty enviers on the one side, and overzealous overachievers on the other side. It is all part of the rotten, overly competitive and entitlement focused atmosphere of NFI, the stink of a tiny barred environment where SFI expats with focus on amassing silvers and/or control meet with achievers zealous to catch up. (I suspect that there are channels to market steam wallet assets from other games against Wurm silvers creating a grey pseudo RMT market but am not sure about).

 

If you shift to one faith swap per month, the faith swappers will even more try to influence toward synchronization with their then lesser chance of SB, and the jealous ones will make noise no less, only maybe less frequently - even that not guaranteed. No mechanics change will heal that. Only when the opponents get to their senses and mutually develop more generosity and tolerance the situation will improve.

 

Still I think a server merge would help to bring fresh air into that poisoned atmosphere, yet my doubts are rising whether I want such company.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

Still I think a server merge would help to bring fresh air into that poisoned atmosphere, yet my doubts are rising whether I want such company.

now we just need elentari to show up and say that the real problem here is epic servers and we got all the same clueless talking points we hear on every topic about anything.

Edited by Tpikol

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Ekcin said:

So let me summarize what matters for organizing global spells:

  • First of all, as many priests not yet having the journal goal for Benediction as possible should be included.
  • At least one priest with highest available channeling needed for maximum participation.
  • For fairness, no "ninja casting". Though it is not explicitly forbidden, it is frowned upon and could count as griefing.

 

What I bolded is utterly rediculous (assuming I understood it correctly). It's a journal goal, so if some random player decided to ninja cast it in order to get the journal goal then that's simply as designed, isn't it? After all you simply can't force everybody to go along with how a subset of the players wants to organize and run global spell casting, even if it's the most efficient way for the highest amount of players to tick that goal off their list. If such a thing is ever to be counted as griefing then it should frankly either be removed as a journal goal, or the entire global spell system should be reworked. Thankfully you can now get Benediction without meeting this journal goal (about time), so stuff like this should now be less of an issue than before.

Edited by Ecrir
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Posted (edited)

I miss a few things pointed out in the discussion, concerning who's affected how and what the effects are, as well as how to handle it all. So let me try to add some more shades of grey to this ...

 

The only group that factually has an "only negative effect" from scheduling rites instead of casting them faster should (?) be single character players that chose to play a priest. I assume if you have at least one alt, then you have a crafter - and with that you can switch yourself. And my impression is, that there might be very few such single-character-priests? I might be totally wrong here, though. If this is correct, however, then most of us can benefit from swapping.

 

Then the difference in loss/gain here. Optimal switching will allow for 4x as many rites as without (400%) of those big benefits. Having to wait sums up to loosing what, one rite a year or something? Let it be 2 lost and say there are only 6 a year for that one god, then it's a reduction of 33%. Harsh still. As the (assumed minority) of single character players would need to accept that loss for that huge gain for the (assumed majority) of players to become available, it is an interesting conflict. But we can only ask for understanding, I don't see a basis to "demand" this, really. The company allows players to potentially gain a lot here, but made it so that some have to agree to a loss for the others to get the gain. They have a veto right, so to say.

 

But about the gains then ... I usually only ever see the sleep bonus mentioned. And 5h is a good lot, but it's not the killer - especially not with treasure hunts bringing more powders into the game I would assume? There is that huge tick on a characteristic though. That's like a free grind of many hours (with sb) for one stat with a single click. I might would wanna switch just for these, even without getting sleep bonus. And finally there is also the bonus to rune creation - if you switch, you can create runes with a huge bonus by waiting till you are with the matching god anyways.

 

So ya, for me it seems like there is a lot to gain while I feel the involved factual loss might be rather little? I didn't do switching for a long time albeit knowing it, so I feel those that are at that point. After doing it a few times it seems much less as an obstacle and much more like a huge bonus, than before. So I'd call those who couldn't be bothered so far to just try it out maybe.

 

We could probably make this more of a community event by improving communication about it (on-boarding, keeping up to date) and maybe even building infrastructure for it for faster cross-server-travel (islands at borders, port-bridges). Btw, with port-bridges priests could probably earn some coin from these even or so as compensation? Currently getting the benefits will take like something like half an hour even under optimal conditions (probably hours if you live somewhere in the middle of a continent?). With infrastructure like that you could do a rite in just a few minutes.

Edited by Jindala
Formatting after submitting accidently
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I don't know if i'm reading this right. Please correct me:

 

"i am of different faith every few weeks, i contribute zero to charging the Rite since i don't even bother getting to 10 faith. You, however,  cannot swap faith to reap the same benefits, or you won't be able to cast the ritual.

You Will however accommodate me because undisclosed number of people like me will be upset.

All of YOU better do the work to charge all deity rituals and wait for it to be convenient for ME to cast it".

 

Please say this isn't what the argument is about?

 

Inb4 "but my alts helped charging it" - those alts will get the benefit of the rite cast.

 

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Posted (edited)

Okay, I'm going to throw some lukewarm to hot takes out here.

 

  • Deleting SB from rites would suck, SFI doesn't have this issue, so lets not shoot the other persons boat because one side has a leak.
  • There are other solutions to look into. Some a bit more direct, some not.
  1. Storelot idea from GL is to make it so you have to be 30 faith to gain the SB reward from rites. Not a bad shout, given it means you've realistically got to settle down with 1 god, get that full 30 faith for the rewards. This also means those who never bothered to pray past the sacc requirement put a bit extra favour into the global cast pool.
  2. I had an idea it could be based on alignment, perhaps you need to be above 90 alignment for the SB benefits. I prefer the faith idea, because alignment will decay, though it might be nice for those people who do that whole RP thing where they want to do what their god likes.

 

I would also like to say, please GOD use the Grand Ritual list. There are still 0 signups for the NFI servers. Why bother with that? Using the sheet, you can go about organising the casting of a rite a bit more privately. You then avoid the precast drama and requests to wait.

 

Alternatively,  do the SFI method and just tell them to go pound sand and/or touch grass. Who cares if they whine? You're already talking smack about them on the forum and sometimes ingame, what rep hit are you worried about? What FOMO is there that you're worried about?

 

This entire drama just perplexes me.

Edited by Madnath
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26 minutes ago, Locath said:

Please say this isn't what the argument is about?

yes you got it right sadly.

 

26 minutes ago, Madnath said:

just tell them to go pound sand and/or touch grass. Who cares if they whine? You're already talking smack about them on the forum and sometimes ingame, what rep hit are you worried about? What FOMO is there that you're worried about?

i dont care but clearly others are afraid since at least 2 people responding here are using fake forum accounts made only for this topic.

 

 

what are they afraid of? i  would assume they either want buy things only this players have to sell(drake,scale and bloods), or sell things and are afraid that speaking against them will mean their auctions and sales dry up.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Tpikol said:

what are they afraid of? i  would assume they either want buy things only this players have to sell(drake,scale and bloods), or sell things and are afraid that speaking against them will mean their auctions and sales dry up.

 

Apparently they're afraid of being banned from public slays is a part? But from what I understand a GM wouldn't intervene in a public slay "banned" list since it's public. And if they're afriad of what you're suggesting, doesn't that kinda fall under bullying?

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19 minutes ago, Madnath said:

And if they're afriad of what you're suggesting, doesn't that kinda fall under bullying?

 if this isnt already happening i dont want to give people ideas about how to screw over others better but nobody can force you to participate in a sale or auction, or stop you from telling your friends that they shouldnt either.(or have a spreadsheet or list on discord of people you dont do anything with.)

 

but i am not one of the people who are afraid so im guessing here.

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2 hours ago, Jindala said:

The only group that factually has an "only negative effect" from scheduling rites instead of casting them faster should (?) be single character players that chose to play a priest. I assume if you have at least one alt, then you have a crafter - and with that you can switch yourself. And my impression is, that there might be very few such single-character-priests? I might be totally wrong here, though. If this is correct, however, then most of us can benefit from swapping.

While theoretically correct, it is in practice wrong that the only group that is negatively affected are the priests as there are others who do not wish to play around a min-max mechanic of having to switch religions, which in itself is a mechanic that is likely unintended to be in the game, but devs probably tried to allow for such a mechanic to remain through a light penalty of 7 days cooldown for switching. However, given how the cooldown becomes the dictator as to when rites are "allowed" to be cast and has caused dissension within the community, I am suggesting that it would be better off just heavily penalising the exploit altogether (3-6 months cooldown) so that while people are still allowed to switch faiths should they decide down the road that it is needed, the benefits of religion swapping is limited further such that remaining in a said religion and the benefits that come along with that (e.g., vyn's skill bonus) makes any sense whatsoever.

 

1 hour ago, Locath said:

I don't know if i'm reading this right. Please correct me:

 

"i am of different faith every few weeks, i contribute zero to charging the Rite since i don't even bother getting to 10 faith. You, however,  cannot swap faith to reap the same benefits, or you won't be able to cast the ritual.

You Will however accommodate me because undisclosed number of people like me will be upset.

All of YOU better do the work to charge all deity rituals and wait for it to be convenient for ME to cast it".

 

Please say this isn't what the argument is about?

 

Inb4 "but my alts helped charging it" - those alts will get the benefit of the rite cast.

 

To be fair to those few that might be using their varying number of alts to charge rites of the different religion (benefit of doubt) where they have alts of each religion charging copious amounts that they deserve a say (I actually don't believe that there are such people, but wurm is filled with all sorts), it might be the case where they legitimately have "rights" to demand for when rites are casted...

But let's be real, it's a group effort kind of thing, there are also people who are saccing their own stuffs from time to time having contributed and nobody knows who's contributed how much. Nobody can effectively say that they contributed more than another and to go to those levels would just be another mess that is unnecessary. Thus I feel that to settle it once and for all, just removing benefits from switching would simply end any switcher's say in the matter of rites, leaving it down to the priests who are the only ones that 1) truly have a say in the matter; and 2) benefit people of said religions directly. Nobody will be gaining more advantage from the mechanic of switching, which was intended only for erroneous decisions or a change of heart in the first place.

 

3 hours ago, Ekcin said:

"If you shift to one faith swap per month, the faith swappers will even more try to influence toward synchronization with their then lesser chance of SB, and the jealous ones will make noise no less, only maybe less frequently - even that not guaranteed. No mechanics change will heal that. Only when the opponents get to their senses and mutually develop more generosity and tolerance the situation will improve."

Thus my suggestion involves a switch cooldown of 3-6 months, where it is so long that there is nothing they can do to optimise their SB gain other than to consider switching once every few months to obtain that little bonus, which if they were to change out of vyn's skill bonus might hurt them in the long run compared to gaining 5 hours of sleep bonus. There will be no more need to optimise the timings of rite casts, rites can be cast whenever as long as sufficient people are available (maybe a short cooldown from when it reaches 100% to allow for others to join in the rite cast, say 2 hours) and and possibly a gauge notification when the favour has been raised to 90/95% globally for people to be aware that a rite may be cast soon so that they can finish their sleep bonuses. Essentially the goal is to completely remove whatever bonus that can be exploited from switching where it returns back to being a mechanic that it was intended for - people making mistakes choosing their religions and people deciding that they want to change to another religion after much consideration.

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Madnath said:

 

Apparently they're afraid of being banned from public slays is a part? But from what I understand a GM wouldn't intervene in a public slay "banned" list since it's public. And if they're afriad of what you're suggesting, doesn't that kinda fall under bullying?

It's not just being banned from public slays, that's but one of the few things. It's just being caught as the perpetrator of a controversy where you are unsure who are going to be offended in your friendlist since nobody actively goes around to check who is a switcher and who isn't, and then the further bullying from trade markets and whatnot.

 

I am, after all, just a spectator that saw the fiasco during the impalong, and decided that this mechanic should not stay because of such conflicts. I created a new account just specifically to make this topic/post because I saw the problem. I wish to withhold my identity so that nobody can direct the offense from my disagreement with their aggressively strong opinions regarding the switching (as observed through the thread) back to me.

Edit: rephrased statement to clarify weightage of "bullying"

Edited by adolphus

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(unpopular opinion) The only fair way would be:

 

Amount of SB received based on contribution.

 

Characters who don't contribute still get boat speed, Genesis within Fo's domain and so on. This is the reward for being a non-contributing follower.

 

Characters who actually contributed get the SB reward on top of that, depending on % added to charging the cast.

total charge poll is 100%, highest contributor this round gets 5h, rest gets their respective % based on the % they contributed to charging the thing. It's not something that is being pumped out by a small group of people in few days. It's many people working for common benefit who then are being the bad guys because of reasons listed above.

 

Anything else is a handfull of characters doing the hard work for everyone, including people from other servers who swap faith, sail to other servers only for that reason AND demand to be accommodated.

 

*Hides in the cave and collapses the entrance behind him*

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3 hours ago, Locath said:

(unpopular opinion) The only fair way would be:

..

*Hides in the cave and collapses the entrance behind him*

Lol. Extravagant way to solve a non problem. It will not end the feud. Rather that will migrate to uniques, alts, usage of perimeters, picking sprouts .. whatever.

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9 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Lol. Extravagant way to solve a non problem. It will not end the feud. Rather that will migrate to uniques, alts, usage of perimeters, picking sprouts .. whatever.

since this feud only exists in your head, its never going to end.

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7 hours ago, Ekcin said:

If you shift to one faith swap per month, the faith swappers will even more try to influence toward synchronization with their then lesser chance of SB, and the jealous ones will make noise no less, only maybe less frequently - even that not guaranteed. No mechanics change will heal that. Only when the opponents get to their senses and mutually develop more generosity and tolerance the situation will improve.

 

 

I'm not trying to fix an ingame feud (it's pointless since some people will never get along), I'm thinking more in terms of "hey, these non-priests have another one up on us poor priests, maybe even the playing field a little because we already get shafted hard enough?".

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This was a recent discussion on Cadence local server chat.  It turns out that faith switching is mostly a benefit over non-faith switching (with Vynora's 10% bonus) for a single rite bonus if you don't Wurm like a second full-time job.  With two (or more) rites cast in a short period of time, the benefits are overwhelming compared to sticking with Vynora, and likely can't be matched even with 24/7 login time.

The benefits almost push players in the direction of faith switching for maximum gains, if that is a thing of interest.  I would agree that the switching "penalties" are far too lenient, especially when returning to the faith again and again.  However, until and unless something changes, I have to change my stance to recommending people faith-swap if they want the maximum SB benefit even though I personally feel it doesn't fit the spirit of things.

It wouldn't be unreasonable for there to be some sort of increasing/stacking penalty (reduced faith gains?) the more you swap back to a deity's faith as Sheffy and others have posted.  Requiring a decent level of Faith to reap the rewards is also a good one, though a little more difficult for the newer players to achieve compared to the well-established.  A combination of the two would seem fitting.

Removing sleep bonus from the rites is harsh, but it would completely end the potential for argument both now and in the future.

However, like others have mentioned, if you disagree with the timing and the request, you just need to find a few people (or alts) and cast it yourself.  If it's being "banned" from public slayings, just ignore it and go about your business.

If those people do anything more than give you a dirty look from the privacy of their homes, or trash talk you with their closest friends, then it's harassment.  If you do receive threatening or harassing comments from them (or anyone!), you should bring it to the Mods with corresponding logs and evidence.

 

(Very thankful that I missed this conversation.  Yard work was much more satisfying.)
 

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21 hours ago, Ekcin said:

If you shift to one faith swap per month, the faith swappers will even more try to influence toward synchronization with their then lesser chance of SB, and the jealous ones will make noise no less, only maybe less frequently - even that not guaranteed. No mechanics change will heal that. Only when the opponents get to their senses and mutually develop more generosity and tolerance the situation will improve.

 

That's why you need to do it slightly differently. For example a 30 faith requirement in order to gain any benefits. In that case it will take some time after swapping before you can benefit from said swap. Or alternatively just require a set amount of time to have passed since the swap, perhaps a month (or two if one isn't long enough). As long as the wait period is long enough that they'll end up missing one or more casts then swapping simply isn't worth it any more for SB.

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It is still not understandable that a whole mechanic must be changed due to the petty jealousy and childish feud of a few players on NFI. "Faith Swapping" never was an issue, and still is not. Those who do impose a lot of work on themselves, their choice. I like global spells when they come, for Vynora at my character and my Vyn priest in particular. I practically never am able to work down the SB hours on my 3 priests. Mind that it is a 5:30h work to get SB down for a global spell (taking in account the bonus hour from marks, and the need to make up for 30min from sleeping). If I had three global spells in short time, it would need 22hrs of grinding to get all that down. And then, additional effort for faith swap, gimme a break.

 

What might be sensible, would be an incentive to stay faithful instead of a punishment to swap faith (which may make sense for a couple of reasons not punishable under any consideration). There could be, for example, a 1% increase of follower rewards for every year (or half year) of sticking to a creed. Or whatever. Nothing extremely exciting so that everyone would jump for, but not completely insignificant either.

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I've switched faiths a few times and never for a global spell.  I've done it to build colossus for myself or for other ppl.  With that being said, I'd hate to see a punishment for changing religions.  There already is a week or two time wait between switching (can't remember how much) and the rebuilding of alignment takes quite awhile if you are switching between light/dark.  The colossus build is a journal objective and it is nice to be able to help others.  If it is inevitable that a change must happen to appease some upset players, I would side with Ekcin's idea.  It is always better to change unwanted behavior with a carrot than with a stick.  

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Posted (edited)
On 6/20/2022 at 12:06 PM, Sinnjinn said:

 

I will freely admit I wasn't paying attention to Freedom chat, and didn't go back and check my logs.  I hadn't realized the discussion had spilled into Freedom, my apologies there.  However I will say that while the statement you reference is very dumb, it's not "or else' or any threat of blacklist as you stated, and the discussion in Local is posted above (where most of the discussion happened) and there was NOTHING about any negative consequences for casting or not casting.

 

EDIT: after reading the logs of Freedom Chat, you're again taking what was said and putting it in the worst possible light.  I'm not really qualified to comment on what Beaowuf was thinking when he made those comments, but it seems to me he is talking PURLY about casting the spell with NO WARNING, not about the debate between waiting a week between casts or not. 


 

Can confirm that I was referring to the player that said in Freedom (from an alt, that was probably visiting Cadence for the impalong- what I meant by them not contributing)  that they were going to cast the rite out of spite for the sole purpose of causing discord.


I try to be as helpful as I can in both CA Help and on my business side of things and I could not abide by someone who intended something so malicious as to try and “stir the pot” simply because they could.

 

 

Sadly, one way or another, it seems to have made matters worse anyway, instead of improving. :(

Edited by Baeowulf

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Extending the 24hour limit we have to pray in order to get the 5 hours Sleep Bonus to lets say 7 days wouldn't make everyone happy? I dont know If it was already proposed as I didnt' read the whole thread.

Some of the casual players would benefit from this too. 

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2 hours ago, HenryofSkalitz said:

Extending the 24hour limit we have to pray in order to get the 5 hours Sleep Bonus to lets say 7 days wouldn't make everyone happy? I dont know If it was already proposed as I didnt' read the whole thread.

Some of the casual players would benefit from this too. 

Does not solve the problem for if there is 3 rites available at a time.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, adolphus said:

Does not solve the problem for if there is 3 rites available at a time.

If someone would demand rite one done now, rite 2 in a week, and rite 3 in 14 days, that would indeed be overblown. After all, there would not be any need to follow suit, and I would not see the point. Otherwise, other players SB gain is not your business. And waiting 2 or 3, even 5 days until all benediction aspirants could gather is normal on SFI too.

 

Edit: I am aware that someone who had not swapped, and done a rite in a week, could do one now, swap, do the other, and the next in 7 days. But that means there was no uninterrupted swapping, so what?

Edited by Ekcin

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