adolphus

Heavier Penalties / Harder requirements to change religions

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So a game mechanic that is being abused for more sleep bonus from rites/rituals is to change religions prior to a rite to obtain sleep bonuses from said religion. This has recently caused an issue during an impalong held at Cadence where due to the amount of favor that has been gained from the priests doing their work allowing for a the rite of spring to be conducted, but because of a loud minority of "religion-switchers", the rite was requested to be held off by the organiser so that this minority could gain from their abuse of a game mechanic. This causes other people who are non-switchers, and are part of the worship of vynoria, not to receive that much needed 5 hour sleep bonus during their time at the impalong, and the organiser being caught in the middle having to make a decision between two groups to appease.

I am suggesting that this game mechanic should have heavier penalities, maybe not being allowed to change religions for the next 6 months to a year, or something similar to discourage the abuse of such a mechanic, so that this sort of behaviour can cease to exist, and disrupt others from enjoying the game as it should.

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I agree, especially since this hits the impers at a community event.
Well I agree all year long really, Impalong or no impalong.

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Posted (edited)

-1 This is the next chapter of the Cadence feud between two groups of players, or by a loud group of players against one or a few fellow players they envy and dislike.

 

I consider switching religions a bit weird and extravagant, but fail to see that it harms anybody. While I am sailing to every RoS I often ignore the other global spells on my priests as I simply lack the time to burn all the SB. Even on my "main" char I feel it stressful to burn down to 2 hrs (or better 1:40-1:30 not to waste overnight SB gain). If players take this pain nobody in a sandbox game is in the position to rule into their playstyle.

 

If players politely ask to delay a global spell one can follow suit or refuse. If they do it in impolite ways ofc I would refuse and defy/ignore. Case closed, the decision in this case was with the impalong organizer. No point to change game mechanics only to harm a player or group of players you hate. Grow up.

Edited by Ekcin

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

If players politely ask to delay a global spell one can follow suit or refuse. If they do it in impolite ways ofc I would refuse and defy/ignore. Case closed, the decision in this case was with the impalong organizer. No point to change game mechanics only to harm a player or group of players you hate. Grow up.

Edited 13 minutes ago by Ekcin

yes its very grown up to "ask politely" that you do what they want or else, including staff members saying that the people who agree with them are the "most productive members" and they will hate you if you dont do what they want. that is not toxic at all.

 

imagine you are this impalong organizer and staff members who are against this (very politely) telling you that everybody will hate you if you allow this. and you beter do what they "ask" or their "very productive" friends will blacklist you.

 

but this case aside this is an obvious abuse of how changing religion mechanics are intended to be used.

 

Edit : think about why the person who made this topic had to use a new forum account.

 

Edited by Tpikol
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Posted (edited)

+1. I am so tired of the drama around rites.

 

 

Edited by magdegreen
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I've enjoyed switching religions for sleep bonus. I've also hated doing it. Ultimately, I keep telling myself I'm just going to stop and settle into playing with my favorite deity bonuses... And then we get another 4-5 rites all ready at the same time and spaced out a week apart and I fall into getting "free" sleep bonus all over again.

 

Frankly, I agree. It should be harder to switch gods. A week is too short and it's a lot like the constant fighting over uniques (and, oddly, surrounding mostly the same groups of people).

 

I'm in favor of changing the mechanics so that we have less drama around the rites.

 

I'm also in favor of ignoring people who "ask politely or you'll be blacklisted" and doing whatever you want with your friends, as long as you're not violating any game rules.

 

What does "being blacklisted" even amount to on a game like Wurm, anyway? Someone will impotently "hate" you behind a keyboard somewhere else in the world? Lol, it isn't much of a threat.

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45 minutes ago, Tpikol said:

yes its very grown up to "ask politely" that you do what they want or else, including staff members saying that the people who agree with them are the "most productive members" and they will hate you if you dont do what they want. that is not toxic at all.

 

imagine you are this impalong organizer and staff members who are against this (very politely) telling you that everybody will hate you if you allow this. and you beter do what they "ask" or their "very productive" friends will blacklist you.

 

but this case aside this is an obvious abuse of how changing religion mechanics are intended to be used.

 

Edit : think about why the person who made this topic had to use a new forum account.

 

I don't mind saying +1 because I am already hated by "the group", and am so tired of their bullying.

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I support this and I think I might be a member of the group.

 

It may have been different in the past, but right now a seven day cooldown is no longer an adequate deterrent against people exploiting the ability to change faith and later change your mind. It's quite reasonable to do that, of course, but once we get to the point where power users are carefully planning when the rites should be cast to maximize their free sleep bonus, it's inevitable that some casters are going to feel pressured to delay casts.

 

The recent impalong on Cadence was a good example. Organizers were left choosing whether to cast a spell to benefit Vynora priests and followers (full disclosure, myself included) who were working to improve items for others, and who would benefit from extra sleep bonus, or to delay the cast to benefit the min/max players. It doesn't matter who's asking politely and who isn't. Once there's a conflict of interest, a difficult decision is inevitable, and some parties are going to be disappointed that the decision didn't go their way.

 

The situation would be best avoided. A cheap solution would be to extend the cooldown time. An ideal solution would be to make the cooldown longer every time a player changes faith.

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with your logic making the time shorter would work just as well.

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5 hours ago, Tpikol said:

yes its very grown up to "ask politely" that you do what they want or else, including staff members saying that the people who agree with them are the "most productive members" and they will hate you if you dont do what they want. that is not toxic at all.

 

imagine you are this impalong organizer and staff members who are against this (very politely) telling you that everybody will hate you if you allow this. and you beter do what they "ask" or their "very productive" friends will blacklist you.

 

but this case aside this is an obvious abuse of how changing religion mechanics are intended to be used.

 

Edit : think about why the person who made this topic had to use a new forum account.

 

 

Great job of making up a bunch of lies to support what you want.  Seriously, I don't think there is a shred of truth to anything you've said here.

 

Nobody said anything 'or else'.  There was no talk to the impalong organizer about being hated by anybody for any decision that was made.  nobody to my knowledge said anything about 'blacklisting.  Some people said it should be cast, a few other asked for it to be held off, I added that a few of us REALLY tried hard this round to get the Mag right cast ASAP to avoid as much of the waiting as possible.  We asked that it be held off for 5 days.  FIVE.  and it was only ready today.  I don't think a rite spell has ever been cast THE DAY it become ready.  asking for five days is not a huge ask.  But that is beside the point.  The organizer made her decision without any coercion from anybody.  

 

And a huge abuse of mechanics?  says who?  How do you know this isn't the way it was intended?  I like how 'I don't agree' = abuse

 

And why are you trying to deny people sleep bonus?  If it were changed so that there was no waiting period, the issue would totally be fixed, but you're not asking for that.  

 

And just to make sure, I just confirmed with the organizer of the event.  NOBODY said anything to her about blacklisting, or being hated, or 'don't cast or else'  or ANYTHING negative, or any negative consequences arising from allowing, or not allowing the cast.  But REALLY good job making up stuff just to make others look bad.

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Posted (edited)

Hello all! 

I was the organizer of this event and I want to clear a few things up as there appear to have been some misunderstandings. 

 

First of all, thank you to everyone who came and contributed - It was very kind of you all to come, and I am incredibly happy that the amount of saccing, prayers, sermons and such allowed for a rite to be in season soon. 

For absolute clarity on what was said, I will post the logs of the exact wording I used, in an attempt to prevent any kind of drama, such as the one this post has evoked:


-------------------------------------

[12:06:48] Annuile If possible, please refrain from any rites until after the event closes. I don't want there to be drama on the last day -

[12:07:09] Annuile I can't force you of course, but it's my selfish request if that's ok ❤️

[12:08:08] Annuile I understand it may upset some to delay it for a day - If you really, *really* need some SP talk to me and we can arrange some SP

-------------------------------------

 

Past this time, I did not see any further mention of the subject in local. Prior to this earlier in the day, I had mentioned my request as well *edit* in Freedom *end edit*: Logs are as follows:

 

-------------------------------------

[10:15:15] <Annuile> I'm indifferent on the matter as a whole, both sides have valid points - But from a purely selfish perspective I would personally prefer if it happened separate from the impalong ._.
[10:15:21] <Annuile> I don't want it to end on a dramatic note

-------------------------------------

 

Nobody PM'd me saying hateful things, or even to say anything else about the matter at all. My entire request to delay the rite was to request that the last day of the impalong be drama free where people can just enjoy themselves and end on a good note, but here we are.

 

Thank you everyone who helped with the event, I had a great time, and I'm just really disappointed that it ended up like this.

Edited by Annuile
Clarity on Freedom post
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As simple fix would be to just kick those whom create these situations of discomfort instead of trying to change the entire game for everyone. 

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I still don't understand who in his right mind would go for a trouble of switching religion for a bit of sb ffs. NFI is weird one for sure. Can't wrap my head around why is this such a problem and how it came to be such drama.

Just cast the ###### rite when is ready and forget about minmax morons instead of trying to change it for everyone because of it.

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1 hour ago, kochinac said:

I still don't understand who in his right mind would go for a trouble of switching religion for a bit of sb ffs. NFI is weird one for sure. Can't wrap my head around why is this such a problem and how it came to be such drama.

Just cast the ###### rite when is ready and forget about minmax morons instead of trying to change it for everyone because of it.

This.

Also, why would not as many rites as possible be cast during an impalong where people come to help other people by imping their stuff, and grinding their skills.
Also, what happens to the Lore of the game when people swap faiths like they swap t-shirts. The impression I get is that NFI has developed a culture that is not at all rooted in the functions and traditions of the game.

I wish we didn't have to see all the NFI drama/greed/lust for power in Global chat. Just separate the clusters to own GLs already please @devs

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Here we go again 🤣 I love NFI, so many dramas. Can someone please start the popcorn machine again, we're gonna need lots.

 

All I'm gonna say on this matter is this. It is part of the game as it is now, and unless the game rules says you're not allowed to do it no player has a right to tell you you may or may not do something, Yes they can ask politely but the choice is yours, if you feel you NEED the sleep bonus ASAP arrange your own team of priests to do this, what I can say though is I've paid very close attention to "the loud minority" as the OP calls them and I can say this, Sinnjinn always tries to include as many people as possible in these casts. he has a post on these forums as it is now where he even asked that someone else takes the lead on the Mag rite on harmony but still asked to include as many people as possible. 

 

No one player or one group enforce the laws around rites, but with a bit of control and communication more people can benefit from it. 

 

Personally this has never bothered me or hindered my play style, My priests are what they are and I don't think I'll go through the hassle of changing faiths on them, on my Main however Because I'm just a follower from time to time I consider this, it depends how desperate I am for sleep bonus really, for menial deed work I don't really care and wont go through the hassle, for serious grinding, heck yeah every minute of Sleep bonus is important and I'm gonna grab 5 hours if I can. 

 

Keep one thing in mind people. At the end of the day YOU pay your premium, no one else, so ONLY YOU get to decide how you spend it.

 

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Posted (edited)

Or just remove religion completly from the game for keeping to provide such inconveniences

 

I guess the community isn't as tight-knit as someone keep repeating is. You know, there's other players beside the half population of "the staff and their buddies", with their own opinions and ideas about the game. Originally -1 obviously, but +1 if that would stop thise other players from getting exluded or someone being passive aggressive to them just because they want to do their own "meta" and not someone elses

 

Edited by Tor
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5 hours ago, Sinnjinn said:

I don't think a rite spell has ever been cast THE DAY it become ready.

 

*Yellowfinger enters the chat*...

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Sinnjinn said:

Great job of making up a bunch of lies to support what you want.  Seriously, I don't think there is a shred of truth to anything you've said here.

do you want the logs of what happened on freedom chat where everybody saw it?

 

<xx1> I find it funny that someone who contributed very little to the whole thinks they are entitled to cast whenever they want simply because they can 😕

<xx1> You can do what you want, be prepared to have the community (the ones who actually contributed towards it) against you

 

did i ever say you did it? you just assumed i must be atacking you, i wonder why.

 

6 hours ago, Sinnjinn said:

I don't think a rite spell has ever been cast THE DAY it become ready.

who is making up a bunch of lies here?

 

6 hours ago, Sinnjinn said:

And a huge abuse of mechanics?  says who?  How do you know this isn't the way it was intended?  I like how 'I don't agree' = abuse

how do i know this wasnt intented because it if was there would be no waiting period. do you expect me to believe that you seriously believe the devs intented people to use it this way? again who is lying here.

 

6 hours ago, Sinnjinn said:

And why are you trying to deny people sleep bonus?  If it were changed so that there was no waiting period, the issue would totally be fixed, but you're not asking for that.  

where have i said that i dont want that? i dont care if they make the timer 3 months or remove the timer, thats up to them how to solve this but something should be done. to quote yourself to yourself "Great job of making up a bunch of lies to support what you want".

 

6 hours ago, Sinnjinn said:

And just to make sure, I just confirmed with the organizer of the event.  NOBODY said anything to her about blacklisting, or being hated, or 'don't cast or else'  or ANYTHING negative

and that is just so nice and believable that you go back to the person and say "did you feel threatened by me" and they say no. (because that isnt presuring them even more.).

 

Edited by Tpikol

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Cecci said:

Also, what happens to the Lore of the game when people swap faiths like they swap t-shirts.

 

The lore of this game is so monumentally warped that you really need to find a better hill to plant your flag in

 

5 hours ago, kochinac said:

I still don't understand who in his right mind would go for a trouble of switching religion for a bit of sb ffs. NFI is weird one for sure. Can't wrap my head around why is this such a problem and how it came to be such drama.

Just cast the ###### rite when is ready and forget about minmax morons instead of trying to change it for everyone because of it.

 

Literally this. Use your ignore list if you must. You'll never please everyone, so just get as many folk as you can and get the rites casted.

 

I feel like part of the issue is just the fact that RoS is cast so much more often (at least on SFI) that it makes you want to be able to take part in it.

There are potential better solutions than just "make this timer stupidly long" and "remove it totally" but the drama will win over and we'll get too hard on working on a solution that's overkill

Edited by Madnath
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Posted (edited)

I'm just going to do everyone a favour to post the chat log that went down on local chat that day when the announcement came through regarding the RoS being available.

 

Quote

[23:16:10] <Mechanicalcepac> Looks like RoS is up from all those seremons lol
[23:16:24] <Sorceress> cast it
[23:16:26] <Timowi> uhh nice
[23:17:05] <Jindala> We are just having Mag rites, please wait a week :P
[23:17:21] <Borstaskor> I wouldn't mind it casted 😛
[23:17:34] <Mechanicalcepac> ^ same
[23:17:53] <Borstaskor> As someone who doesn't do any switching for globals, I'd rather it start ticking right away to the next one
[23:18:00] <Timowi> please not waiting a full week
[23:18:15] <Borstaskor> but eh, one group always gotta suffer for the other group no matter what. I'd prefer it be the majority not suffering. I'd vote cast 😛
[23:18:24] <Sorceress> cast it
[23:18:40] <Borstaskor> If a very few handful of heads wants to fk over the rest of us
[23:18:43] <Borstaskor> I'd be a bit sad
[23:18:47] <Yiannis> I'd say the impalong makes an exception: The folks doing imping might appreciate it.
[23:18:56] <Alakazam> jesus not this . again  we cast the mag right ASAP.  Can we wait 5 .ing days?
[23:18:56] Ephedra next sermon: @36 Omson, Ephedra, Shipwrighttas, Ommag, Squiddles, Emmett, Shanx, Ibarra
[23:19:26] <Borstaskor> I guess I'll be a bit sad then
[23:19:55] <Yiannis> Normally I like the wait in between because I like to bounch.  But .... lotta people burning a lot of SB in one spot right now.
[23:20:29] <Borstaskor> I wonder how often they'd get popped if they were popped asap every time
[23:20:41] <Borstaskor> For the majority (rest of us) who doesn't do the swapping
[23:20:46] Borstaskor shrugs
[23:20:51] <Sorceress> twice a month
[23:21:34] <Borstaskor> So, ye. I'll go ahead and be a bit sad that a few handful of heads wants to deprive the rest of the playerbase who doesn't do the thing a few handful of people do
[23:21:35] <Alakazam> Bors, it's 5 days.  is that really such a huge ask?  We got the mag right cast as soon as we could to try to space them out
[23:21:46] <Borstaskor> You're not seeing my point, I'm assuming
[23:22:05] <Borstaskor> But eh, I'm no priest. I don't have a say in this.
[23:22:10] <Timowi> no ofc not ...
[23:22:10] <Borstaskor> I'll just be sad.-
[23:22:31] <Alakazam> No, you have no idea who does, and doesn't switch.  You SAYING the 'majority' don't switch is just that...you saying it
[23:22:45] <Alakazam> the fact is we hve NO IDEA who does, aand doesn't switch
[23:22:51] <Borstaskor> You think that statement is wrong? :o
[23:22:55] <Borstaskor> Interesting
[23:22:57] <Alakazam> YOU think it's the majority that don't, becuase you don't
[23:23:04] <Byrchman> perhaps then no one switches and it doesnt matter
[23:23:05] <Sorceress> most people dont switch its very try hard
[23:23:06] <Borstaskor> Yes, I do believe that. Not because I don't
[23:23:09] <Alakazam> most peple I know sitch
[23:23:14] <Timowi> Then SAY who all is switching. Let the switcher speak up
[23:23:30] <Jindala> I just switched to Mag 2 days ago for this
[23:23:31] <Timowi> Most ppl I know don't switch...
[23:23:36] <Borstaskor> It's interesting how you think that statement is false tho
[23:23:40] <Alakazam> Wwhy not?
[23:23:43] <Sevenhavenz> wouldn't the same fallacy that you are accusing of borstakor to be having the same said for yourself?
[23:23:47] <Borstaskor> That'd literally mean you think majority of people switch
[23:23:51] <Borstaskor> Hmm
[23:23:52] <Alakazam> there is litterally ZERO reason not to
[23:23:58] <Homestead> I'm staying Vyn for the extra skill while imping during the impalong. Normally switch. But didn't for this.
[23:24:04] <Sorceress> poll it right now and you'll see for real
[23:24:25] <Jindala> Ya, I used to be one those. Seemed complicated and all. But it's superb - unless people f... it. And having 10h sb less than you could (in addition to what you still do get), that is sad
[23:24:33] <Jacalina> :( i dont mean to interrupt for it makes me sad to see fellow gamers quarreling :( i hope yall can resolve it
[23:24:40] <Sorceress> https://strawpoll.com/polls/e2navp81pgB
[23:25:24] <Borstaskor> You'll have a hard time convincing me that 'majority' of people are tryhard enough to be switchers
[23:25:26] <Borstaskor> Sorry
[23:25:39] <Borstaskor> But I guess you're more than free to believe that to be the case
[23:25:52] <Sorceress> 8 votes dont switch
[23:25:59] <Sorceress> please vote
[23:26:01] <Sorceress> https://strawpoll.com/polls/e2navp81pgB
[23:26:05] <Sevenhavenz> why not just do a strawpoll on the impalong discord, then make a decision 6 hours tomorrow?
[23:26:14] <Alakazam> I think of people who actively grind,and use sleep bonus, yea.  probably more people switch
[23:26:15] <Sevenhavenz> 6hours before the end*
[23:26:20] <Zephyrnull> it's complicated, the people that don't switch will have people who don't care to open a link to vote
[23:26:42] <Jindala> I have no idea about who's a majority - and that's not the point. People who don't care are ok to. caring enough to f.. over those who try but not to do it properly yourself is what sounds meh to me
[23:26:45] <Alakazam> if you count EVERYONE, for sure not...but most of those people are 'full' hwen the rite is cast anywway and it doesn't beneifit them one way or another
[23:26:46] <Sevenhavenz> it works on both parties
[23:26:56] Ephedra next sermon: @36 Omson, Ephedra, Shipwrighttas, Ommag, Squiddles, Emmett, Shanx, Ibarra
[23:26:57] <Sevenhavenz> there will be people who switch that don't care as well
[23:27:07] <Borstaskor> Most people use SB, wether you be a hardcore grinder who benefits hard from it or a casual
[23:27:13] <Forticao> Hola,  alguien que hable español aqui?
[23:27:18] <Sorceress> alright guys cast rite of spring i can link if you need a 100 faith
[23:28:00] <Borstaskor> I've seen rites be pushed for quite a while (considerably longer than 5 days) before due to this switch meta thing
[23:28:04] <Smarken> ppl who don't care dont vote ... same as reallity ^^
[23:28:06] <Alakazam> In my alliance, peope either switch, or don't use sb at all
[23:28:22] <Borstaskor> Which, every single times, fks up (WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE BUT YOU DONT NEED TO BELIEVE IT TO BE) the majority of people
[23:28:26] <Alakazam> sure, more peole don't use sleep bonus, but agaain, they don't beneifit at all
[23:28:52] <Jindala> If you don't care it doesn't matter. Otherwise just switch with it and enjoy the more. The half of both seems irrational. Not to mention what one misses on characteristics
[23:28:55] <Jindala> Those ticks are huge
[23:29:19] <Borstaskor> It's not like I don't know the value of sleep bonus
[23:29:22] <Borstaskor> I got decent skill levels
[23:29:27] <Jindala> I know ;)
[23:29:35] <Alakazam> Bors, you right, and this time we made an effort to get them cast as ssoon as they becoFIVEialble so nobody would be waiting very long.  Jesus, it's FIVE days
[23:29:57] <Yiannis> The impalong is 2 days. :D
[23:29:58] <Borstaskor> I've been a non switcher all this time'
[23:30:04] <Sevenhavenz> which will be 4 days after the impalong
[23:30:06] <Borstaskor> Work a full time job
[23:30:10] <Yiannis> I did not switch to mag because of the impalong
[23:30:33] <Borstaskor> Don't quite have the energy to minmax to the level of switching, especially since I also don't alt meaning I don't have access to chars to easily convert me to any religion
[23:30:42] <Borstaskor> (which, let's be fking fair, most people don't)
[23:30:43] <Yiannis> So, again, 'normally' I would 'vote' wait (if voting mattered), but this time I would vote cast.
[23:30:49] <Jacalina> [11:30:50] Tabasco pokes you in the ribs.
[23:30:53] <Jacalina> yooo
[23:31:19] <Zephyrnull> how about this: the devs had a kind of oversight with this. i know from other games switching beliefs usually results in big punishments
[23:31:22] <Jindala> That's the strange thing  Borsta, you are minmaxing everything and like hardcore - just not that? I don't get it. Wouldn't mind if you weren't pushing "don't let them get it" at the same time
[23:31:31] <Borstaskor> I do imagine the amount of globals I could've had if it wasn't for a switch meta. Maybe saying twice as many is a bit much but I wouldn't be surprised if I could be enjoying maybe 30-50% more globals
[23:31:34] <Borstaskor> on average, that is
[23:32:12] <Borstaskor> But eh, as I said before, I don't priest in any way at all. So it's not like I have an actual say
[23:32:20] <Jacalina> and offff he goes :P
[23:32:23] <Borstaskor> I'm just voicing opinions. Of a single player.
[23:32:32] <Jacalina> at my budddy tabasco there :P
[23:32:46] Ephedra Omson check PM
[23:32:52] <Jindala> Caster are a different thing though, especially if played as main and only char or so. Those I really understand - and just would ask them to let the others enjoy what they cannot get

 

Subsequently the later mention of casting the rite of spring and Annuile's (the event organiser) response.

 

Quote

[02:04:28] <Squiddles> since we are here any vynora priest wanna cast right of spring in a bit?
[02:04:54] <Oflegends> anyone available who has a wagon kind enough to take my floor loom down to the docks? :P
[02:05:10] <Seljanka> rite of spring?
[02:05:20] <Seljanka> i want :D
[02:06:08] <Squiddles> i think we need like 4 or 5 priest? idk ive never done it want to try though
[02:06:24] <Gorgone> i would like to join there too
[02:06:41] <Seljanka> ok all link me pls
[02:06:43] Annuile If possible, please refrain from any rites until after the event closes. I don't want there to be drama on the last day -
[02:06:57] <Squiddles> okay
[02:06:59] <Seljanka> ok
[02:07:04] Annuile I can't force you of course, but it's my selfish request if that's ok ❤️
[02:07:20] <Elvedui> You're allowed to be selfish
[02:07:27] <Sevenhavenz> (would really like to has rite of spring..)
[02:07:51] <Seljanka> i need that for journal
[02:07:59] <Sevenhavenz> *looks at 6 minutes remaining sleep bonus*
[02:08:02] Annuile I understand it may upset some to delay it for a day - If you really, *really* need some SP talk to me and we can arrange some SP



I am suggesting this as it is clear that this is still an abuse of a system. If changing of religions is something that was intended to be done in a manner where the exploit of being able to gain sleep bonus from any religion when the rite is casted is allowed, there shouldn't be a cooldown. Since there is a cooldown, it is there as a deterrence that changing of religions is a mechanic that was intended for those who have chosen erroneously or have a change of heart to have access to, and not for people to flippantly change for the benefit of gaining more sleep bonus. Moreover, sleep bonus is available in the two forms - bed sleeping, or sleeping powder, which the latter is accessed through a premium function where it involves purchase of premium time in either the form of silver, or microtransactions. It would not make sense for any game developer to allow for an exploit that allows unfair gain of premium products, which results in loss of revenue. Thus this game mechanic of abusing the low cooldown of 7 days to change religions and managing global rite casts to fit that cooldown is, as aforementioned, an abuse.

I do not believe that any event organiser, especially a player based one (not even a GM, it is a major community event) has to bear the responsibility to decide a global affect event (rites), and the consequence of displeasure from either groups that benefit from either decision they did not make. Annuile has done massive amounts of work to make this event happen, and having to face such a decision is not something that should be added onto her plate, accident or otherwise. This abuse of game mechanic can be either mitigated through increases in penalties, or removal of penalties as someone suggested. However, with the removal of penalties could result in another argument of whether back to back rites should be casted within a certain period of each other, otherwise those who do religion switching will not gain the maximum benefit from all the rites available at one time (this scenario, while a very unlikely one, is still one that may happen down the line. If the stars align and an impalong causes this to happen, who wishes to bear the responsibility to deal with the masses?).

If we truly want to have everyone win from rites being casted, why not just have sleep powders sent to all players available on the server whenever any rite is cast? Since this whole mechanic is a sham and this removes the need for people to change religions just to min max their lives just to get that sweet 5 hour sleep bonus after all. Why not just narrow it down to one bar that is shared among all the religions that affects when rites can be casted so that there is one shared goal with one shared benefit? Then there will be purpose for being part of any religion for an extended period of time while also allowing everyone to benefit from when rites are casted, in exchange that the frequency of rites being casted gets reduced from 5 to just 1.

I created this post to see what the response is from the general public and to see people from both groups come together to discuss the problem as seen during the impalong. The results did not disappoint. We had no idea which group of people (switchers vs non-switchers) were the majority, and could not come to a proper conclusion that benefitted the majority because switchers were very vocal about refusal of conduct for the rite. The decision was handed over to annuile who had to make the call, which I felt was unfair for her since she already had many other things weighing her mind and she has already done so much to make the event happen. Has any of the switchers thought for the event organiser having to make such a decision, and the resulting consequences that is unfairly placed on them? I highly doubt it.

edit: restructured a sentence that had confunding elements.

Edited by adolphus
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Also, for the freedom chat that happened as well.

Quote

[23:57:52] <Vynbatterytwo> Oh Vyn Rite is ready =D
[23:58:34] <Vynbatterytwo> I'll cast it in a couple of hours to benefit the Impalong impers
[23:59:20] <Wylson> Greetings, there's an impalong at Valormoore!  Why are not here?!  We need Carpentry items to imp!  Come all!
[23:59:30] <Onesterror> Could wait a couple days for those that just found out
[00:00:04] <Vynbatterytwo> Or i could jsut cast it to benefit those that don'e switch faiths =]
[00:00:10] <Vynbatterytwo> don't*
[00:00:17] <Onesterror> nothing about switching
[00:00:43] <Onesterror> for those who do not know it is ready and are not currently on
[00:00:46] <Timowi> There is free coffee at impalong
[00:00:56] <Vynbatterytwo> The best part of the game is I don't have to have permission to cast it =p
[00:01:14] <Vynbatterytwo> But if peoiple would rather get it on their priests nows their chance before I cast it
[00:01:17] <Onesterror> nope you do not but consideration does go along way
[00:01:18] <Timowi> I don't like switchers nay more :(
[00:06:32] <Baeowuf> It's worth noting that you alone did not contribute all the progress to make the Rite available
[00:06:40] <Baeowuf> And it's usually frowned upon to snipe the Rites
[00:06:59] <Baeowuf> So, sure, you don't need permission, but that doesn't mean the community has to like it :)
[00:07:13] <Vynbatterytwo> Sniping rites may be frowned upon but i also find it frowned upon to try to Meta game them
[00:07:31] <Timowi> so true
[00:07:51] <Baeowuf> I don't see why that's a big deal? I don't do it, but it really doesn't seem to be that huge an inconvenience
[00:08:05] <Baeowuf> I'm not even Vynora follower so it doesn't affect me one bit
[00:08:31] <Baeowuf> But the mentality of "I CAN do it so I WILL without repercussions" is one I am not fond of
[00:08:34] <Onesterror> I was just thinking of those who are not on and do not know that is going to be cast. That they may benefit from it as you will and not because they need to change faith
[00:08:42] <Tpicant> so you as a ca are promoting exploiting mechanics in clearly not intented ways?
[00:08:48] <Vynbatterytwo> There are no reprcussions of doing it though.
[00:08:52] <Tpicant> you are ok with that?
[00:09:02] <Baeowuf> That is not exploiting mechanics
[00:09:05] <Tpicant> it is
[00:09:09] <Baeowuf> It is not
[00:09:14] <Baeowuf> It functions as intended
[00:09:25] <Baeowuf> There is a cooldown of 7 days between switching faiths (barring Libila)
[00:09:43] <Fizzleboom> Priests cannot switch
[00:09:53] <Baeowuf> Never was this conversation about priests switching
[00:09:59] <Timowi> If it's intended they should just remove the switch cooldown ...
[00:10:06] <Fizzleboom> they are still affected by lack of SB then
[00:10:46] <Vynbatterytwo> Kinda funny how i never had this issue on SFI which means its a Meta gaming aspect of several individuals who want to benefit themselves rather than those who actually don't swap faiths
[00:10:50] <Mistirayne> well i have 7 hours to try to burn through before i pray again
[00:11:42] <Fizzleboom> I would argue that some notice on forums is provided usually, to notify even non meta gamers
[00:11:53] <Onesterror> yes
[00:12:04] <Onesterror> so they can be ready for the right to be cast
[00:12:06] <Vynbatterytwo> Theres never a notice on SFI forums about the casts
[00:12:26] <Baeowuf> I find it funny that someone who contributed very little to the whole thinks they are entitled to cast whenever they want simply because they can 😕
[00:12:27] <Timowi> After getting the consequences organizing a cast against the will of rite and dragon mafia I'm more on the side of snipers now ...
[00:12:43] <Tpicant> there used to be, when it instant only for the people who were online at the time
[00:12:48] <Tpicant> then they made the 24 hours thing
[00:12:56] <Baeowuf> That is extremely inconsiderate I feel (And I'm speaking as an unaffected 3rd party) I am not Vynora or benefit from the Rite in question
[00:13:57] <Baeowuf> You can do what you want, but faith swapping is NOT an exploit and never has been. Like I said, be prepared to have the community (the ones who actually contributed towards it) against you
[00:14:18] <Timowi> not all of the community ...
[00:14:32] <Baeowuf> I play the game differently than some people and try to be as helpful as I can be, and that type of behaviour contradicts that
[00:14:37] <Baeowuf> And I can not be ok with that
[00:15:10] <Annuile> I'm indifferent on the matter as a whole, both sides have valid points - But from a purely selfish perspective I would personally prefer if it happened separate from the impalong ._.
[00:15:16] <Annuile> I don't want it to end on a dramatic note
[00:15:37] <Baeowuf> I'm indifferent as well (mostly) but when someone mentions they want to do it purely out of spite
[00:15:42] <Baeowuf> I can't be indifferent in that scenario
[00:15:55] <Tpicant> many things were though to not to be exploits for years, until devs realized that they obviously were
[00:16:02] <Baeowuf> That is not the Wurm way
[00:16:07] <Homestead> yea. :(
[00:16:27] <Homestead> Though.... I've been imping at the impalong and jsut burned a powder.  ....
[00:16:30] <Baeowuf> That's a side effect of a game that is in constant development/change, Tpicant
[00:16:50] <Tpicant> yeah but it refutes your argument
[00:17:02] <Tpicant> its not seen as an exploit by the devs yet
[00:17:05] <Tpicant> but it will
[00:17:08] <Baeowuf> At this point in time it is NOT considered an exploit, so my arguement stands
[00:17:14] <Homestead> I intentionally did not switch to Mag for the SB right before the impalong because if I'm grinding for 2 days straight, I want my Vyn skill bonus.
[00:17:26] <Baeowuf> That may change, sure, but right now it IS NOT an exploit and claiming otherwise is false information
[00:17:58] <Vynbatterytwo> Plus lets be honest a Rite isnt going to affect those that are complaining about it being cast anyway as they are getting all the fancy Sleep Powder from the Treasure Chests ;D
[00:18:00] <Homestead> Which is why "I" think the impalong makes the exception. "Normally" I like the rites to be spread so I can switch.
[00:18:14] <Homestead> But, to me, this made an exception.
[00:18:35] <Homestead> But - I also know it will always be a debate.  Can't make everyone happy ever.
[00:19:08] <Mistirayne> it does effect those vynbatterytwo, i don't faith swap, but a warning is nice so i can burn off what i have and be ready, i have 10 sleep powders in my inventory now i never use cuz i 'm good at
[00:19:15] <Mistirayne> using my sb
[00:19:37] <Mistirayne> but now i have 7 hours to burn thanks to the devs and the sb gods they gave us the extra on tuesday
[00:19:38] <Vynbatterytwo> You have 24 hours and they implimented Coffee to help burn SB faster.
[00:20:03] <Onesterror> yep and if you do not have it then you have to pay for it
[00:20:16] <Mistirayne> don't use coffee i don't sit here for 24 hrs a day to play so i use what i can when i can
[00:20:26] <Fizzleboom> secret ploy to sell more coffee
[00:20:28] <Mistirayne> just a 24 hour notice would have been nice

 

Posted this after my previous post as it took a while to dig up the content amidst my IRL things.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Tpikol said:

do you want the logs of what happened on freedom chat where everybody saw it?

 

<xx1> I find it funny that someone who contributed very little to the whole thinks they are entitled to cast whenever they want simply because they can 😕

<xx1> You can do what you want, be prepared to have the community (the ones who actually contributed towards it) against you

 

 

I will freely admit I wasn't paying attention to Freedom chat, and didn't go back and check my logs.  I hadn't realized the discussion had spilled into Freedom, my apologies there.  However I will say that while the statement you reference is very dumb, it's not "or else' or any threat of blacklist as you stated, and the discussion in Local is posted above (where most of the discussion happened) and there was NOTHING about any negative consequences for casting or not casting.

 

EDIT: after reading the logs of Freedom Chat, you're again taking what was said and putting it in the worst possible light.  I'm not really qualified to comment on what Beaowuf was thinking when he made those comments, but it seems to me he is talking PURLY about casting the spell with NO WARNING, not about the debate between waiting a week between casts or not.  And you can go back and see previous forum posts from myself where I ask people if you're not gonna wait the week, to PLEASES at least post on the forum that you're gonna do the cast, give people a chance to join for the journal credit, and give people some warning so they can have their sleep bonus already used up so it's not a mad dash to burn it.  I'm pretty sure this was the context behind what he said, so your statement is invalid

.

Quote

who is making up a bunch of lies here?

1) I said I THINK.  I didn't make a statement of a fact.  But I can see you're going to take everything incorrectly so whatever.

2) You call me a liar without any evidence, even anecdotal.  Nice.  I could be wrong, it's impossible to know these things for sure since there is no way to know for sure when a Rite spell is ready, but I try to stay informed of when they're ready cause I want the free sleep bonus and try to make sure I'm ready for them.

 

Quote

and that is just so nice and believable that you go back to the person and say "did you feel threatened by me" and they say no. (because that isnt presuring them even more.).

 

Please post a log of anything I said that could even be REMOTLY called a threat.  The whole conversation is posted above, and Ann even posted herself.  But keep making stuff up

Edited by Sinnjinn

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Why not just focus on putting restrictions on when you can benefit from the Rite spell? Like, make it so you need to have been following a certain religion for X amount of time before you can benefit from said spell? That way it's pretty simple and straightforward without potentially impacting other things.

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Leave it as it is and just cast the darn spell when it triggers :P  Ask in freedom chat who wants to join, then teleport em in and cast :P

 

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