Keridwyn

Too many trees!

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After an extended absence from the game, I came back to find the meadow I had been tending next to my deed overgrown with trees. Now, I like a forest as well as the next person, but there are a *lot* of forests on Cadence!

 

To this end, I would like to see tree and bush sprouts prevented from spreading to flowered grass tiles. Thanks for your consideration.

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Good idea.  I've created a few different flower gardens before and always have to cut down the tree sprouts when they show up.

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oak trees, lawn, plant flowers, cut the trees down for skill

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Posted (edited)

I think it would be great if tree growth was revised. Some points I personally believe:

  • On deed, flowers should be protected from replacement by bushes and trees, just as lawns are.
  • A tree that reaches the end of its life should not regrow in the same tile. That tile should become grass.
  • Sprouting trees/bushes that reach the end of their sprouting stage (without the sprout being cut by a player) should choose a random spot within a relatively small area (perhaps 5x5) and a new plant should appear there only if the terrain is grass or steppe or dirt. Otherwise that sprout doesn't get to grow into a new plant.
  • I'd also like the chance of the sprout making a new plant to depend on a list of factors including altitude and slope, which would allow certain plants to tend to naturally dominate certain types of terrain (grapes on slopes, pines at higher altitudes, and so on). Of course, players will still be able to manually plant whatever they want wherever they want it, but natural forests, bushes, and meadows would be much more pleasant, more dynamic, and less dense.
Edited by Sheffie
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Yeah, creating and maintaining a meadow is so tedious. It took me a LOT of work to create my grassland as the trees just kept coming back, especially those damn fruit trees - god they spread fast. I have to keep a buffer of around 25 tiles of steppe or moss around my grassland to keep the trees out. I'd love to see some scaling back of the tree sprouting mechanism, something along the lines of what Sheffie proposes. At the very least, limit the maximum length a sprout can get "thrown" from a tree or bush to 5-10 tiles at most. My understanding is that this "fast-spread" mechanism is in place to quickly forest new servers, which start out very sparse, but I really think we're well past that point, certainly on SFI, and from what the OP says, on NFI as well. 

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I believe that trees reaching the end of their life SHOULD restart and grow on the same tile, as it's a lot of work to replant an orchard over and again, especially if all the trees have gone. This would respect the intention of those players who planted them.

 

I do, however, think that grass and meadowland should be protected from tree sprouts, just as steppe currently is, as they too, are an important biome for spawning useful creatures. 

 

Under NO circumstance should sprouts be allowed to take hold on steppe.  Steppe should continue to block tree spread.  Currently on Deliverance swathes of steppe are being used successfully to protect areas of treeless grassland from encroaching trees.  While this works well, it would be nice if grassland was also sprout resistant.

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12 hours ago, Muse said:

I believe that trees reaching the end of their life SHOULD restart and grow on the same tile, as it's a lot of work to replant an orchard over and again

Absolutely

 

12 hours ago, Muse said:

I do, however, think that grass and meadowland should be protected from tree sprouts

this I'm not sure of, even though I do maintain probably the biggest grassland in Wurm. It is nice to be able to reforest an area after a clear cut by someone fairly easily by planting a few sprouts and letting them self-propagate and watching the forest revive on its own. I think that limiting the max tiles a sprout can be "thrown" (don't know a better word off the top of my head) would help protect meadows a little bit better as it'd be more of a slow creep into the meadow by the trees, kinda like RL. IF there was a way to set a preference or make it a higher chance that the sprout would be thrown towards other trees and away from open grassland would be ideal. Trying to strike a balance between being able to reforest after a WC clear-cut grind and protecting meadows and grassland. I'm not a fan of having to keep steppe between trees and grassland, but don't want to stop trees from spreading on their own entirely.

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19 hours ago, Sheffie said:

I think it would be great if tree growth was revised. Some points I personally believe:

  • On deed, flowers should be protected from replacement by bushes and trees, just as lawns are.
  • A tree that reaches the end of its life should not regrow in the same tile. That tile should become grass.
  • Sprouting trees/bushes that reach the end of their sprouting stage (without the sprout being cut by a player) should choose a random spot within a relatively small area (perhaps 5x5) and a new plant should appear there only if the terrain is grass or steppe or dirt. Otherwise that sprout doesn't get to grow into a new plant.
  • I'd also like the chance of the sprout making a new plant to depend on a list of factors including altitude and slope, which would allow certain plants to tend to naturally dominate certain types of terrain (grapes on slopes, pines at higher altitudes, and so on). Of course, players will still be able to manually plant whatever they want wherever they want it, but natural forests, bushes, and meadows would be much more pleasant, more dynamic, and less dense.

 

I absolutely agree with point 1, it sucks when you plant a lot of great flowers and they disappear because a tree wanted to grow there.
Point two I disagree with heavily, agreeing with Muse below also for point 3 that Steppe should not be able to have trees spread to it as well as point 4 as having big clusters of forests that you've planted is a highlight of Wurm I think, if I planted 100 cedar I expect 100 cedar to continue to grow, not mixmatch of different sorts. 

 

12 hours ago, Muse said:

I believe that trees reaching the end of their life SHOULD restart and grow on the same tile, as it's a lot of work to replant an orchard over and again, especially if all the trees have gone. This would respect the intention of those players who planted them.

 

I do, however, think that grass and meadowland should be protected from tree sprouts, just as steppe currently is, as they too, are an important biome for spawning useful creatures. 

 

Under NO circumstance should sprouts be allowed to take hold on steppe.  Steppe should continue to block tree spread.  Currently on Deliverance swathes of steppe are being used successfully to protect areas of treeless grassland from encroaching trees.  While this works well, it would be nice if grassland was also sprout resistant.

 

110% Muse, 110%. 

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Just had a thought. What if the behavior of the trees differed based on how they were planted? Say, if the tree was planted in the center, it would not throw sprouts and would regenerate from shriveled to young on the same tile, preserving the orchards, while if the tree was planted naturally it would throw sprouts (at a more limited distance than currently, say 5 tiles) and possibly not regenerate from shriveled to young on that same tile. That way, we could have a border of center-planted trees that would be the barrier between forest and grassland.

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4 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

Just had a thought. What if the behavior of the trees differed based on how they were planted? Say, if the tree was planted in the center, it would not throw sprouts and would regenerate from shriveled to young on the same tile, preserving the orchards, while if the tree was planted naturally it would throw sprouts (at a more limited distance than currently, say 5 tiles) and possibly not regenerate from shriveled to young on that same tile. That way, we could have a border of center-planted trees that would be the barrier between forest and grassland.

 

The idea to have that as an option is good, but then I could only plant in the uniform fashion and not naturally, meaning anytime someone wishes to make a orchard or something along those lines, it will be stuck looking stupidly uniform and gives you less creative control over how wild the area can look. I use plant naturally a lot for my orchards because I think its more pleasing. 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Blazecraze said:

I use plant naturally a lot for my orchards because I think its more pleasing

Agreed, I was just throwing out a way to strike a balance between keeping forests natural looking and self-propagating and keeping the grasslands clear of trees. Maybe if the sprouts didn't travel as far and had a higher tendency to spread towards other trees and away from large areas of grass that would help. But, not sure if that's a possibility with coding or not.

 

Also, I could be mistaken, but I think that when the tree goes from shriveled to young there's a chance that it will change position on the tile, which would result a more natural looking orchard over time. If not, that mechanic could address the issue of orchards "looking stupidly uniform."

Edited by DaletheGood
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Posted (edited)

I think Dale's suggestion was a great idea. Here's how I see it.

  1. A tree that's planted in the centre of the tile is an "orchard tree". It will regrow in the same spot, and will not spread.
  2. A tree that's planted naturally is a "wild tree". It will not regrow in the same spot, but it will spread.

This gives us the best of both worlds. It allows orchards to be low maintenance with no danger of spreading out of their desired area, and it lets forests be dynamic natural spaces that might spread, but shouldn't become too dense. And it gives people who want to stop forest spread another option.

 

I think that fruit farmers are currently asking a bit much, if they expect to be able to plant a rectangular block of fruits trees, never do any maintenance work, and simply harvest them every year... and have the option of planting them naturally. My suggestion that old trees not replant in place would just require the owner to either prune back overaged trees, or replant them after they've died. I don't think that's too much to ask. My second preference would be to have the trees behave differently when planted naturally, as described above, and say to farmers, if you want the benefit of maintenance free fruit trees, you have to have them in neat rows.

Edited by Sheffie
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On 6/10/2022 at 7:43 PM, Keridwyn said:

After an extended absence from the game, I came back to find the meadow I had been tending next to my deed overgrown with trees. Now, I like a forest as well as the next person, but there are a *lot* of forests on Cadence!

 

To this end, I would like to see tree and bush sprouts prevented from spreading to flowered grass tiles. Thanks for your consideration.

cut them all, cut all grass to lawn and that wont be an issue, great view for a long time

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2 hours ago, Finnn said:

cut them all, cut all grass to lawn and that wont be an issue, great view for a long time

No pretty flowers or butterflies though if you do that

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Suggest a toggle on deed only. Toggle to prevent tree and bush sprouts spreading. If people don't like a forest next to them. Buy a big deed and toggle to prevent the spreading.
While people have different opinions on public place, some like the spread for more log, some like to against the spread for more flowers, people can choose whatever styles u want in ur private place. 

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6 hours ago, Sheffie said:

I think Dale's suggestion was a great idea. Here's how I see it.

  1. A tree that's planted in the centre of the tile is an "orchard tree". It will regrow in the same spot, and will not spread.
  2. A tree that's planted naturally is a "wild tree". It will not regrow in the same spot, but it will spread.

This gives us the best of both worlds. It allows orchards to be low maintenance with no danger of spreading out of their desired area, and it lets forests be dynamic natural spaces that might spread, but shouldn't become too dense. And it gives people who want to stop forest spread another option.

 

I think that fruit farmers are currently asking a bit much, if they expect to be able to plant a rectangular block of fruits trees, never do any maintenance work, and simply harvest them every year... and have the option of planting them naturally. My suggestion that old trees not replant in place would just require the owner to either prune back overaged trees, or replant them after they've died. I don't think that's too much to ask. My second preference would be to have the trees behave differently when planted naturally, as described above, and say to farmers, if you want the benefit of maintenance free fruit trees, you have to have them in neat rows.

 

I am still going to have to disagree with this and my main reason I will be honest is that it will then be defining what is really a simple aesthetic choice by a game mechanic. 

 

An example would be something like Pine forests and other lumber cutting orchards would preferably be planted  in the centre to make traversing through them and cutting them down much easier, but the goal is that they do spread and replenish alongside your own efforts as you harvest them. 

 

Then you have your 'privacy' trees, like Firs and Olives - if you were to plant them naturally to make a wall of brush that no-one can see through but then your trees will start killing themselves every few months.

 

Personally I think I am just not a fan of putting a mechanical decision behind an entirely aesthetical choice - would it not be best to introduce a new mechanic instead of taking away one of our very few aesthetic choices in regards to trees? 

 

Also not sure about the fruit farmers things, sounds made up. You're basically saying that fruit farmers who  want their trees not to be in a straight line are asking too much? Or have I got that wrong? Personally don't think any tree should be maintenance free either, especially purely again, because of an  aesthetic choice. 

 

 

 

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I can't actually grow flowers easily because of this (I can't even cut down the sprouts as a priest!)

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Don't you just need a buffer of 6-7 tiles around the "lawn" to keep any sprouts from "contaminating" it?

Or trees/bushes rng spawn anywhere randomly?

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2 hours ago, Finnn said:

Don't you just need a buffer of 6-7 tiles around the "lawn" to keep any sprouts from "contaminating" it?

Or trees/bushes rng spawn anywhere randomly?

 

As it stands now, a tree sprout can land on grass or flowers at least 12 tiles away and pow, new tree. And once it's a tree tile, only being cut down by a player will get rid of it.

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8 hours ago, Sheffie said:

at least 12 tiles away

I was told a couple of times in CA-Help that they can spawn up to 20 tiles away, is it only 12? Cause that'd be much nicer than 20 :)

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Posted (edited)

Maybe there should be some basic rules like in Conway's "Life" cellular automata, rather than a sprout kind of randomly taking root within x tiles.

 

I remember when Cadence was launched there was some discussion about how to protect the grasslands, and it mostly involved surrounding them with sufficient "non-sprouting" tiles to keep any forestation to a manageable minimum.

 

I have a bit of a concern about "no spreading on grass /flowers ever" because that would make re-forestation a huge chore.

On 6/11/2022 at 6:47 AM, Sheffie said:

I think it would be great if tree growth was revised. Some points I personally believe:

  • On deed, flowers should be protected from replacement by bushes and trees, just as lawns are.
  • A tree that reaches the end of its life should not regrow in the same tile. That tile should become grass.
  • Sprouting trees/bushes that reach the end of their sprouting stage (without the sprout being cut by a player) should choose a random spot within a relatively small area (perhaps 5x5) and a new plant should appear there only if the terrain is grass or steppe or dirt. Otherwise that sprout doesn't get to grow into a new plant.
  • I'd also like the chance of the sprout making a new plant to depend on a list of factors including altitude and slope, which would allow certain plants to tend to naturally dominate certain types of terrain (grapes on slopes, pines at higher altitudes, and so on). Of course, players will still be able to manually plant whatever they want wherever they want it, but natural forests, bushes, and meadows would be much more pleasant, more dynamic, and less dense.

1st point - completely agree

The other points I think have a lot of merit, but devs would need to test the bejeebers out of this to check that long term trends don't cause explosive growth or complete die off.

 

 

Edited by TheTrickster

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Posted (edited)
On 6/11/2022 at 9:38 PM, Coach said:

Suggest a toggle on deed only. Toggle to prevent tree and bush sprouts spreading. If people don't like a forest next to them. Buy a big deed and toggle to prevent the spreading.
While people have different opinions on public place, some like the spread for more log, some like to against the spread for more flowers, people can choose whatever styles u want in ur private place. 

 

I'd thought of something like this, but as an expansion on alchemy, using liquids to treat tiles for selective growth possibilities.

 

A new series of liquids would allow only one type of growth on tiles treated with them. Nothing but grass/nothing but flowers/nothing but trees/nothing but bushes. Would also maintain the same mechanic as transmutation fluids, in that they would require far less on deed and perimeter tiles than in the wild.

Edited by Avaxas

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23 hours ago, Finnn said:

Don't you just need a buffer of 6-7 tiles around the "lawn" to keep any sprouts from "contaminating" it?

Or trees/bushes rng spawn anywhere randomly?

You know, this would  be a nice additional balance to cut down on deed chores, it probably deserves a suggestion of its own!

 

 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

Maybe there should be some basic rules like in Conway's "Life" cellular automata ... devs would need to test the bejeebers out of this to check that long term trends don't cause explosive growth or complete die off.

 

 

 

I completely agree on both counts!

 

I started out thinking that game of life style rules should apply, but I'm afraid that something like that would tend to lead to very stylized, unnatural patterns. I think we just need to go with randomness...

 

... and test the stuffing out of it!

 

This is a golden opportunity for the devs to write some test code that's really simple - a map dump showing trees and grass as white/black pixels, so that they can quickly run thousands of iterations and verify that it doesn't go crazy. Your basic rule of thumb is, each tree has to be capable of creating more than one tree before it dies, and each tree has to die (or there's no real dynamism).

Edited by Sheffie

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