Pity system for treasure maps

[Vorticella 958]

13 minutes ago, Bekador said:

The map as such is just a lottery ticket. Remember that there is a lot of stacked RNG involved and the initial map is just step 2 of several steps towards your treasure ( moi->initial map->1-5 further  "search for X with ambushes/new maps-> get treasure chest)" and you can fail in several ways to complete your hunt for treasure (cant find a spot, too strong mobs, etc.) on any of the steps after getting the initial map. For me there is no exitement in getting a lottery ticket, the exitement start when I see the chest sitting before me and the loot is rolled. What will I get when I open it?

 

And with the current system if I am not putting a char towards farming this system for maps but instead just play the game I will very rarely get a ticket.

 

It's more like the actions you take that can potentially result in treasure hunts are the tickets. You can play the lottery a lot without winning anything, and even if you do win it's not always a jackpot.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Vorticella

[Lycanthropic 523]

+1 for, so far I got a bunch of moi's, but no map whatsoever (and the one time it would be a garanteed map, it turned out bugged for me x_x)

Getting a boost in %, each time you miss the roll would be very welcomed.

[Etherdrifter 2,516]

Table below summarises the proposed vs the current system

 

Maps After 5 Tries	Current	Proposed
0	0.32768	0
1	0.4096	0.8192
2	0.2048	0.2048
3	0.0512	0.0512
4	0.0064	0.0064
5	0.00032	0.00032
Average Maps Found After 5 Tries	1	1.4096

 

So, in terms of average number of maps found, it is currently exactly 1 in 5 on average.  Under the new system, this becomes 1.4 in 5 on average.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Etherdrifter

[Coach 196]

2 hours ago, Vorticella said:

I'm not sure. Finding a treasure map should be an unexpected event. If there's a pity system it starts to be more expected, and then it's just not as thrilling when it happens.

I once heard people saying "If people have a couple of bad things in a row happen and that lowers their expectations to have good things, that will increase how happy they are when they finally have a good thing.
Please pity the people who want that great moment of happiness or the thrilling and retreat this pity system for getting maps.

[elentari 2,660]

4 hours ago, Coach said:

"If people have a couple of bad things in a row happen and that lowers their expectations to have good things, that will increase how happy they are when they finally have a good thing.

Also moments like that make players quit MMOs or avoid certain types of content. If they get too unlucky they say it's not worth the bother. 

 

 

[Muse 2,219]

I agree with @elentari

 

In my opinion the game should not show the player a fancy lights display and an audible drum roll and then give them nothing.  It's a bit like putting glitzy wrapping paper around an empty box.  Nobody is going to be happy with that gift.  

[Archaed 2,280]

So what would your suggestion be to address that? Only show the roll if you get a reward? 

[elentari 2,660]

2 hours ago, Archaed said:

So what would your suggestion be to address that? Only show the roll if you get a reward? 

Precisely. 

 

Literally one of the reason "farming MOI" was added to getting clues was because of the endless 1000 posts on these forums about players laughing bitterly at how wasted moments of inspiration were when farming. 

 

Or repairing. Or praying. Or meditating. Etc.

 

Showing someone a rare MOI then giving them nothing is kinda petty if not outright cruel. 

 

Got a rare roll and something turns rare? Show the MOI. It doesn't turn rare? Hide the MOI. Simple as that. 

 

As for maps I was talking to a few delians about this system. People have been digging and mining for a couple of days and nothing. Meanwhile my alt priest has prayed for 2 hours and got 2 maps in the span of 30 mins, one of the maps is supreme. 

 

I don't find RNG a fair system. Also I am not sure all actions have the same equal chance of giving you a map. Praying so far has netted me 5 maps. Meanwhile my main has fished, dug, farmed, mined and zero maps so far for him. 

 

 

[Sheffie 1,120]

In principle, I'm behind the idea of making the randomness a bit less random. Here's how I'd do it. On the first MOI: the chance of getting map is 20%. If that fails, the second MOI has a 16% chance, the third MOI has a 17% chance, and so on, until the player wins a map. Then their chance is reset. This method evens out the wilder random swings (at the cost of increasing the average number of maps given out. That effect could be countered by having the initial chance be 19% or 18% or whatever).

 

But if we're going to do this for treasure map rolls, why not for adding a rare brick to the forge? Why not for attempting to create a knarr, or treat a wound with a healing cover? There are lots of things that are difficult and random and which could arguably discourage the player if they fail repeatedly.

 

Treasure maps are new and are getting a lot of attention. I think it'd be a mistake to roll out new systems to deal with those, without looking at whether those new systems are good ideas in general.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Sheffie

[Odynn 2,248]

I highly second that and it's a feature in others game with some randomness involved. After X amount of tries you always end up having something. It took me 4 days and 12 MoI through prayers to get my first map.

[Archaed 2,280]

3 hours ago, Sheffie said:

In principle, I'm behind the idea of making the randomness a bit less random. Here's how I'd do it. On the first MOI: the chance of getting map is 20%. If that fails, the second MOI has a 16% chance, the third MOI has a 17% chance, and so on, until the player wins a map. Then their chance is reset. This method evens out the wilder random swings (at the cost of increasing the average number of maps given out. That effect could be countered by having the initial chance be 19% or 18% or whatever

Uhh, this makes it harder doesn't it? 

[Zakiah 66]

Devs: Hey, let's give the players something extra sometime, randomly, when they do some typical tasks.  It'll be a nice bonus above and beyond what they get now.
Players: We're not getting the rewards fast enough.  Make it guaranteed and more consistent!

 

Personally, I spend a lot of time grooming animals, farming, picking potted plants, and mining.  I very rarely get MOIs.  I don't think so highly of myself to consider myself entitled to receive such things; instead, I am happy when it happens and accept each one for the bonus that it is.  (Though, admittedly clearing out some Zinc veins and getting rare Zinc wasn't quite as exciting) :)

 

I feel safe in suggesting that the Devs are watching the frequency of map drops and will be adjusting things as time goes on to meet whatever goals they may have.  Instead of instantly taking something the Devs have introduced as a *bonus* and demanding it be implemented as a *guaranteed resource*, why not accept it in the spirit that it was given: a random bonus.

 

Perhaps this thread should be considered a request to increase their frequency?  Because for the reasons listed above, I'm very much against making this a guaranteed mechanic, unless you also make the final chest have a decent chance to contain absolutely nothing.

 

(How you feel about an empty chest at the end of the treasure hunt will show what your real intentions are: greedy pig who just wants more stuff or someone who just enjoys the adventure and the hunt)

 

[DaletheGood 1,073]

6 hours ago, elentari said:

Showing someone a rare MOI then giving them nothing is kinda petty if not outright cruel. 

 

Got a rare roll and something turns rare? Show the MOI. It doesn't turn rare? Hide the MOI. Simple as that

That. 100%

[Lovelie 419]

7 hours ago, elentari said:

Showing someone a rare MOI then giving them nothing is kinda petty if not outright cruel. 

 

Got a rare roll and something turns rare? Show the MOI. It doesn't turn rare? Hide the MOI. Simple as that.

 

 

 

I agree with this, because from what little I understand a MOI itself is like one roll, but there is ANOTHER roll which determines if something even happens in most cases (e.g. you might successfully roll a MOI while imping, but there's another roll again to succeed or fail at it becoming rare)

 

Well, it seems pretty useless and unnecessarily disheartening ("cruel" as it was put earlier) to even be notified of that first roll at all if it affects absolutely nothing except your psyche

 

 

 

As for the proposed pity system... while i'd personally be happy with something like that since i would love to do treasure hunts but have only gotten 1 map... i guess it might need a little more time to gather more data, check the numbers after a while in the live game and see if the # of rolls and # of maps being produced and completed matches up with how the devs like. I wonder if we had it like @elentarisuggested and we only had MOI on successful/fruitful rolls, if these treasure maps would feel as painful as they do right now?

[Coach 196]

13 hours ago, elentari said:

18 hours ago, Coach said:

"If people have a couple of bad things in a row happen and that lowers their expectations to have good things, that will increase how happy they are when they finally have a good thing.

Please pity the people who want that great moment of happiness or the thrilling and retreat this pity system for getting maps.

Also moments like that make players quit MMOs or avoid certain types of content. If they get too unlucky they say it's not worth the bother. 

9 hours ago, elentari said:

Got a rare roll and something turns rare? Show the MOI. It doesn't turn rare? Hide the MOI. Simple as that. 

The fail of MOI might be cruel to some people as u have mentioned, might lead to a quit.

But the fail of MOI reflects the truth. The great moment of happiness and trills are came from the truth and it makes the people want to keep playing. 
It really up to the devs that which type of people they want to attract. The people who can bear the truth or not.