Darklords

Exploration: Part 1 - Public Testing Round 2!

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Posted (edited)

Can maps/clues dug up be given to other players (I know they can be dropped, look like scrolls)?

 

If other players have the maps can they find the treasure or is it locked to the player that dug it up?

 

Do you even need a map to find a treasure... can I just stumble upon one or does it get triggered by finding a map first?

 

 On the live servers, if I dig and have an MOI, do I get rare dirt AND the first clue or will it be one or the other?

Edited by Whane
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Any idea where to try?

 

NCVgDVE.png

 

If you remove the Examine the map for check location, please at least some alternative feedback mechanism and/or disable the "Dig for treasures" everywhere unless it is close enough to the location.

Currently I can swim and Dig for treasure in middle of the ocean with a shovel...

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Posted (edited)

Please make sure you can get the treasure maps when digging even when not lowering ground like its been in the past. No reason you cant get it digging other stuff like clay etc

 

Also creatures should drop them.

Edited by Joemog

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I am assuming it is because of the update from yesterday to today, but 4 map chests I hadn't opened are now gone and out of inventory.  Not sure if they turned into maps (don't think so) or just went and popped.

Also, several maps I have are empty (had text on them, like go to this guard tower) but are now just blank sheets of paper.

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6 hours ago, Whane said:

Can maps/clues dug up be given to other players (I know they can be dropped, look like scrolls)?

 

If other players have the maps can they find the treasure or is it locked to the player that dug it up?

 

Do you even need a map to find a treasure... can I just stumble upon one or does it get triggered by finding a map first?

 

 On the live servers, if I dig and have an MOI, do I get rare dirt AND the first clue or will it be one or the other?

Good questions. I'm curious about these myself. The fist and last questions in particular.

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I tried again tonight to work with the maps.  As far as I am concerned the system relies too much on getting lucky and it just isn't fun.  Here is an example 37ql map (map #12 if you are looking at my inventory).

 

Clue 1 was a tower that I got lucky and found.   It was at 022

Clue 2, 3 & 4 all had roads on them, enough that I could find them.  

Clue 2 at M12ish

Clue 3 at P24ish

Clue 4 at K16ish.

Note: just how much running around there was.  They were spread out over 1/4 of the map, and I had to zig zag back and forth to find them.  Between travel and trying to figure out where to go, it was about 2 hours.  Thankfully it is a small server!  

Now comes clue 5:  

 

cKkDbW4.jpg

 

Middle of nowhere!  Only clue is an abandoned deed called Lading.  No roads, no significant landforms on the map.  The hint show a large circle on the south coast, and based off previous hints it is probably towards the center, so look at the downloaded map of this area:

 

fFCWPnR.jpg

 

What, if anything is there to ID the site?  The gray blobs on the map as far as I can tell are probably different tree types - and looking at that map is is a mix of willow/oak and something else.  The contours are not available on the downloaded map - perhaps they could have helped, perhaps not.  The outstanding visible terrain such as tar / moss / water / sand / rock don't appear to be anywhere on the map.  If I knew where the old deed was, perhaps I could find it, but unless the GM's release a spreadsheet with deed names, x & y's there is little to no chance that info will become available to us mortals.  Options at this point are go to the approximate area and make a grid search pattern, start doing some archaeo and hope I have that skill up 80+ so I can get clues from distant deeds that might lead me close, or walk away.  

 

 

This was 2 hours that basically if I wouldn't have been on test and expecting issues, I would have become very upset over.  On a server like xan, this type of empty land is very common.  And, if it scales like missions currently scale, the travel would have been in days not hours.  Their needs to be something more to help people find these locations or you will get nothing but drama on the forums and people not coming to try exploration part 2.  I know Budda said that there is something else coming, so I am hopeful this will be adjusted prior to release next week.  To spend so much time and effort for what is basically a dead end will just make people angry, frustrated and sad - and those are not good emotions to encourage for a game that lives on subscriptions.

 

PS as an addendum to the above concern, I keep thinking of how this would work on my home server of xan.  If the loot is the same as the other servers but the scale is similar to how missions scale, it will only be done as a novelty and any serious people will be forced to go to other servers.  Doing a small loot multiplier (1.5 for indy, 2.0 for xan as a rough thought) might incentivize the extra travel times involved on these larger servers.  Particularly as xan doesn't have guard towers, archery towers, colossi, and most mission structures on its map; and I don't know of any servers that have the "expired" deeds in a ready format, the success rate will be much lower than for the smaller, higher population density servers that do have that info on their maps.   

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my question is about the new journal changes will they grant skills retroactively to established charactors or will we have to redo the item(not too hard) again to get the journal entry?

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10 hours ago, Whane said:

Can maps/clues dug up be given to other players (I know they can be dropped, look like scrolls)?

Yes they are tradeable

If other players have the maps can they find the treasure or is it locked to the player that dug it up?

Anyone can loot the chest

Do you even need a map to find a treasure... can I just stumble upon one or does it get triggered by finding a map first?

Digging up treasure is tied to the map, it's not just treasure buried somewhere, so you need the map, and it needs to be in your inventory. Every treasure is generated when the map is opened, there's no set locations for them.

 On the live servers, if I dig and have an MOI, do I get rare dirt AND the first clue or will it be one or the other?

This one I don't know, but I wanted to answer them all

I answered what I knew in bold!

 

3 hours ago, Spacy said:

PS as an addendum to the above concern, I keep thinking of how this would work on my home server of xan.  If the loot is the same as the other servers but the scale is similar to how missions scale, it will only be done as a novelty and any serious people will be forced to go to other servers.  Doing a small loot multiplier (1.5 for indy, 2.0 for xan as a rough thought) might incentivize the extra travel times involved on these larger servers.  Particularly as xan doesn't have guard towers, archery towers, colossi, and most mission structures on its map; and I don't know of any servers that have the "expired" deeds in a ready format, the success rate will be much lower than for the smaller, higher population density servers that do have that info on their maps.   

So do remember that the maps spawn based on where you find the item, so it's not "oh it goes x server map tiles away" it goes on ingame tiles, so you're searching the same size place within the same travel distance as any other server. 

 

41 minutes ago, kordethbludscythe said:

my question is about the new journal changes will they grant skills retroactively to established charactors or will we have to redo the item(not too hard) again to get the journal entry?

Just like the last time, if there's already an achievement tied to it, it'll be granted, if there's not, you'll have to do it again. 

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14 hours ago, Joemog said:

Also creatures should drop them.

 

 

This is a great idea - have mobs in the wild also drop the treasure maps. Would give me a reason to hunt again!

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52 minutes ago, Rocklobster said:

 

 

This is a great idea - have mobs in the wild also drop the treasure maps. Would give me a reason to hunt again!

Rare rolls don't happen in combat, and the coin is NOT a rare roll. 

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41 minutes ago, Archaed said:

Rare rolls don't happen in combat, and the coin is NOT a rare roll. 

 

Are you sure? What about the rolls for the recipes?

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12 minutes ago, Rocklobster said:

 

Are you sure? What about the rolls for the recipes?

Completely based on creature generation. 

 

Not a rare roll at all. 

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honest suggestion. We need devs playing this on test server a bit. Words cant express.

 

Got a chest, got 1st clue. Went to estimate location on map that's in the middle of nowhere. Judging by the contours on the treasure map I'm pretty sure I was in the area. Started digging around for treasure and could not find anything. Rinse repeat that for 45 minutes or so around the area and honestly - I switched off. Don't see myself wasting limited play time on this stuff live too. 

 

Apart from contours on the treasure map and a big fat X rest of the map doesn't make any sense to me as a player. What are these colour patches meant to say? Forests? mountains? roads? cliffs? deserts? To me that's just some random vague colour fillings. No hints, clues that you are even in the area makes it really hardly possible to locate. Maybe add a small area like 5x5 being able to trigger on screen message saying the area looks familiar to the treasure map once you step inside it much like bees work? 

 

treasure-map.jpg

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Devs have been on every day answering questions and doing it themselves.

 

Grey = rock 

Green = not rock 

 

Compare it to the server dump and you'll get it.

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2 hours ago, Skatyna said:

honest suggestion. We need devs playing this on test server a bit. Words cant express.

 

Got a chest, got 1st clue. Went to estimate location on map that's in the middle of nowhere. Judging by the contours on the treasure map I'm pretty sure I was in the area. Started digging around for treasure and could not find anything. Rinse repeat that for 45 minutes or so around the area and honestly - I switched off. Don't see myself wasting limited play time on this stuff live too. 

 

Apart from contours on the treasure map and a big fat X rest of the map doesn't make any sense to me as a player. What are these colour patches meant to say? Forests? mountains? roads? cliffs? deserts? To me that's just some random vague colour fillings. No hints, clues that you are even in the area makes it really hardly possible to locate. Maybe add a small area like 5x5 being able to trigger on screen message saying the area looks familiar to the treasure map once you step inside it much like bees work? 

 

treasure-map.jpg

 

Took me less than 2 Minutes to find it:

uNlxtZm.jpg

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Can't really complain when the map has actual marks on it, it's the ones with nothing usable that are the problem and no feedback for digging in the wrong place.

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And the tower hints...(cant stress that enough)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bekador said:

Took me less than 2 Minutes to find it:

 

Bravo! 

 

Just a small issue that the in-game map circle was completely different place 💁‍♂️

 

plus, just a small observation - if we need to use out of game web links and community maps or map dumps to locate something in-game it just screams to me the mechanics are broken. In-game stuff should be doable purely using mechanics provided only in game. 

Edited by Skatyna
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8 minutes ago, Skatyna said:

 

Bravo! 

 

Just a small issue that the in-game map circle was completely different place 💁‍♂️

 

plus, just a small observation - if we need to use out of game web links and community maps or map dumps to locate something in-game it just screams to me the mechanics are broken. In-game stuff should be doable purely using mechanics provided only in game. 

Will take a look at the circle placement see why they may be off.

 

22 hours ago, Whane said:

 On the live servers, if I dig and have an MOI, do I get rare dirt AND the first clue or will it be one or the other?

You will get both still.

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I like the maps, but hate the clues. I also miss the hot/cold hints from examining the maps. Maybe instead of spamming examine, we could have a message that pops up (like near a beehive) when we are within a stone's throw of the target. It'd be great if that were for both maps and clues. The new loot is fabulous, though - very motivating for me!

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2 hours ago, Keridwyn said:

I like the maps, but hate the clues. I also miss the hot/cold hints from examining the maps. Maybe instead of spamming examine, we could have a message that pops up (like near a beehive) when we are within a stone's throw of the target. It'd be great if that were for both maps and clues. The new loot is fabulous, though - very motivating for me!

 

I liked the idea of giving the proximity hints on a failed 'dig for treasure' check. That way it isn't as easy to spam our way to the treasure location and we're still rewarded for accuracy on locating the treasure without this hint... But so that we've got a better chance of finding the treasure without spending literal hours searching and packing in a grid pattern to try to locate the thing.

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Posted (edited)

Okay so I have spent some days testing the stuff out on the test server, and I really liked to give it a try. :D 
Overall I liked the exploration update and the idea behind it, but I have a lot of constructive criticism. In general, I try to find as many points as I could where there is room for improvement, so I am not at all against this, but just want to give the best feedback possible I can.

 

First off I have to ask: What was the intended reason for making this update, and do the developers feel like that goal has been reached as the update looks now?


The Map
I like the idea that it's possible to see the approximate location on the map.


It is somewhat frustrating - especially with a 6 step map - that the area of digging changes so much. I would suggest that it would start with a big circle that became smaller and more precise the closer you got somehow, so each map was focused on the same area. Having to travel from one end of a server to the other repeatedly will birth a lot of frustration and negativity, plus it won't necessarily make people explore areas to get to know them better.

 

The 'open' map is not as intuitive to read unless you know to use the map dump. Even then I feel the graphics could be enhanced a bit and even to be more in style with the general wurm style. This watercolour look is awesome, but just not overall as wurmy.

Having to check with the map dump also brings some concerns to mind. What if a new deed has been founded and terraformed the entire area? Or the opposite, what if someone had removed the forest that was there and made it all into a nice smooth desert? Would that be apparent on the in-game map, but not on the map dump? That will indeed make it harder to locate the digging site but can be solved if the 'open' map would be updated live. But if the map is updated live, would it not encourage people to make weird terraforming spots here and there leaving the server spotted and unnatural too?

 

What happens if the map leads you to an area with a seemingly bad or impossible to reach the spot and it is up there (I assume it's only on mountains this will become relevant). Low-level players can't just climb there nor do they necessarily know how to make stamwhiches and wine -  not to talk about yet another skill they have to grind. And what happens if a deed is made just on top of where your treasure is to be found or blocks the way? 
 

The Player Perspective

I went through a range of different ql maps from 3ql to 45ql (and have some unfinished that are higher) and to me I kept asking "Is the rewards really worth the time?". And so far the rewards I have gotten were not worth it. I would say to make up for the time put into it the rewards should at least be worth 3 silvers per hour spent on it else there will be a frustration at first and then a big decline in actually using the treasure feature.
I felt that a <10ql map took too long to do compared to the rewards it gave.

 

It's no secret that the average wurmian spends a lot of time grinding, tending deeds or helping out others with orders or whatnot. I strongly suggest that the treasure rewards should be balanced so that it is more than worth it to go on the treasure hunt compared to the other everyday wurmian activities. 

 

The update should both keep new and old players in mind. It is made for the player experience and developing the feature should have them in mind. I feel like the minimum ql that has 2-3 steps is actually too much. For a new player having 1 step should be enough. This could be just maps below 5ql or so - so that they actually have a chance to experience the treasure hunt too. It's not a secret that wurm has a steep learning curve already, so adding that and the difficulty will be discouraging.

 

Having several steps of the "same action" is working against the immersion of the game. There needs to be variation. 6 steps of "go here, then dig, then go here, then dig..." is frustrating (yes I use that word a lot) and it breaks the immersion to the game which means the player will disengage a lot quicker. Adding variation as to how to find the next clue, or add different clues like a note with some numbers, directions, a note or something entirely. I don't have the answer, but definitely think about how you keep the player engaged during this. It could be that finding a key or a gem or a coin upon each dig would also be changing things up a bit and making it more interesting. For now, it seems redundant to have 6 steps that are just the same action. In general, activating the players' intellectual and sensory immersion would be beneficial for this update indeed (ie. immersion studies )


Suggestions
Add visual feedback on the map that suggests where you are in relation to the map somehow, like a compass or a node changing colours (not so good for the colour blind). Generally, Visual feedback engages the players to a higher degree.

 

Fewer steps and/or making the steps more based on solving clues and puzzles (small minigames can be an option).

 

Have a short guide on how to read the map, to begin with with the first map you ever find that explains colours, shapes, drawings etc.

 

Instead of having the navigation to the digging area be somewhat a mystery and harder to reach, why not base it on the tracking system? This skill is never used on PvE anyway, so why not make use of it? If you track within the 'Show hint' circle then maybe get some results based on your tracking skill on where it might be or what direction to go? This would be a good use of the skill and revitalise it.

 

I would suggest not using archaeology at all for finding the treasures. I like the idea but in practicality, it didn't work out very well unless you could get a marker or pointer to where to do the archaeology. Again this felt like a feature added to waste the time a bit more and will make the player frustrated more than it will benefit them.


Other Notes
I found this a bit amusing 
[18:06:33] This is a challenging clue. You have completed 4 steps of this treasure hunt. This clue may have between 3 and 5 steps.
Now that I am on step 4 I know it has 5 steps.
 

Why the wait time from opening a casket until you get the parchment but no action timer? It honestly feels like the game isn't responding. Remember to add the visual feedback so the player knows things are happening, and even more remember to ask if that is redundant to even have that 3-5 second wait period.


Again I really like how you listen to your users and take their experiences into account!  great work! :D 
I hope this was okay feedback and let me know if I should expand on any of the points.

Edited by Fraskesa
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On 6/1/2022 at 7:16 PM, Skatyna said:

 

lets be honest - everything I have highlighted in RED in the quote above are completely useless and unnecessary. Nobody wants the filler trash and 99% of players will leave it to decay trashing the areas. Get rid of it completely. Instead you can add chances to get past item skins that were monthly skin at some point or a special jackal skin.

 

You: "I want no junk, here are the worst junk items"

me: "this is a good proof of concept that the list could be longer, crazier, and even more useless"

 

You want no junk, I want to feel like I'm on the trail of a madman who stashed away his electrum branding iron collection before the spider mafia gets him (they catch up to me as I open the chest). Bonus, there's some SP and, like, gems.

 

Also I'm glad the distance examine was removed, I was using those to solve maps without even looking at the clues, utterly trivialized it

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8 hours ago, Archaed said:

Devs have been on every day answering questions and doing it themselves.

 

Grey = rock 

Green = not rock 

 

Compare it to the server dump and you'll get it.

When there is rock this is possible, but basically in most cases if it doesn't have rock or road (or a tar patch of specific shape) on it the whole clue/map is useless.  Honestly a map where that is all you can distinguish can hardly be called a map.

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Just solved a 95ql map, and thankfully it didn't have any archaeology steps (otherwise i would have dropped it and logged out).

Without the archaeology clues of hell, it was pretty relaxing, done in 5 steps in a little under two hours. I enjoyed it.

The loot is great, thou i didn't get anything interesting this run i got alot of loot overall from it and won't complain on live.

 

Looking forward to doing them live soon!

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