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kochinac

Why Archeology sucks and how to improve it

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So, @Archaedthinks archeology is great, and instead writing him DM I decided to write this post. I've been planning to do so in a long time, just was too lazy mostly to be honest.

For me, archeology is done poorly in many frustrating ways and as someone with almost 98 archaeology skill and 99.48 restoration skill here are my remarks.

 

The randomness, materials, runes and bad enchants

 

OMG the randomness of stupid runes you get from restoring items, must I comment that. Most of the runes are useless, and even those who are good are in the wrong things. Having chance to extract runes, and having way to add extra rune slot to existing item of your choice somehow would make runes from archeology much more satisfying. 

Also randomness of materials, if I get rare tool fragment and it turns out not to be iron or steel when I complete it, well, I can just sit, cry and curse my faith and day I started playing this game. I heard some weirdos like to get gold hammer, but not me. Having a way to transmute metals( to be clear, transformation would be just among same tier, regular metals, alloys and moonmetal, so no iron to steel, but bronze to steel for example) would be much useful, and not to mention would add value to alchemy. Nobody wants to play roulette for finished product, roulette for parts you can customize is another thing.

Also moonmetals, i get moonmetal frags should be rare, but current state is ridiculous, I cleaned and discovered god knows how much fragments, from very old deeds, and very long  time ago disbanded also and i got only one, repeat only one moonmetal plate fragment so far... also tokens that could be nice source of moonmetals for imping are not smeltable. I get that getting full weight of token would be overkill, but atleast allow to smelt them for some portion of its mass.

And lastly  enchants, I have over 99 restoration FFS and never in my life I have got useful enchant with over 30 power combing fragments from 70 year old deeds, if that's not enough to tell system is bad I don't know what is. Enchants are mostly annoyance, like on nails and branches where you can't bsb them instead of something usefull. I think it would much better to get CoC lump for example rather than enchanted nail.

 

Bad fragment categorization

 

It so frustrating how fragments are categorized. Branches and shafts should not go to weapons, they should be wood fragments. Nails and ribbons shouldn't be tools, should be metal fragments, carving knives, butchering knives, etc should not be weapons frags, should be tools even though WS is used to imp them, If i recall correctly only file, and throwel are categorized as tools, not even hatchets and pickaxes... Sorting them like suggested would make much more easier to filter appropriate runes and enchants on them would mend randomness and uselessness of enchants to certain limits

 

Wood fragments

 

Having special archeology woods is cool, although I personally am not fan of anything wooden that isn't cedar/oak but I get why people would like them. But, special arrow shafts are wasted opportunity, those fragments should be replaced with planks fragments( maybe 6 or 10 would be needed to finish planks so it would not be overpowered). Adding another rare tier with low chance with rift woods like moonmetal frags for metals would be interesting. Also, being able to find and restore ancient PMK wagons and banners is something that i would like to see a lot, even if it would be only be possible while investigating on Chaos like someone recently suggested.

 

Statues, statuets and masks

 

This one I will admit to Archaed, i belive Statues are spot on with reward vs spent time, they are not easy to complete and enough unique to get satisfaction when you finish one, and yet not so hard you would give up hope of ever completing one number of fragments needed is spot on for me to make archaeology interesting, best part of Archaeology for sure. Statuetts are fun, but i find them hard to find some that are alloys, good forbid moonmetals, masks so, so, mask of shadows is the one that looks cools, other not so much, they are so abundant that it's quite cheap to make any profit from them or get any satisfaction.

 

Storage

 

And finally, lack of storage where fragments won't decay on deed makes me sad. Ideally i would just allow cleaned/uncleaned fragments to go to bsb, would make life so much easier for sorting by ql, type and name. Saving 90+ ql armour frags to combine whith eachother for me would be worth if i don't have 90+ armour skill for example...Or storing statue fragments without magic chest, But i don't think putting in bsb is possible because of informations that fragments carry that would be lost in bsb, even with cleaned ones, someone correct me if i'm wrong. So any other way of mass storage that would uttilize sorting and saving them from decay on deed is desperatly needed.

 

So, i'm curious what do you guys think about it? Is archaeology good or bad? What would you like to see changed?

 

P.S.

Also, just came to mind, there is a matter of lacking clear explanations of what you should aim for when searching,and how all of it works. how to max chances to get complete report, how to get better frags. WU code is riddled with all kind of interesting conditions. Like, it seems that wild grass tiles are the best, and paved tiles are worst, which make sense, if tile is cluttered with items thats bad, number of fences around tiles is also very bad as it goes up, deed inhabited for 10 years but disbanded 50 years ago is as good as deed inhabited for 50 years but disbanded 10 years ago, bonus of beeing into enemy teritory for pvp doesn't seem to bring anything significant, and seems to me that with very high skill all those bonuses are not that important and are being capped by skill. Moonmetal frags are only possible from caches, etc. Would love somebody with more experience in code digging shed some light on it, i just dropped a glance over it.

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ohh BUOY, I want to reply already but DAM, I have to read and 'listen' first to be nice, brb.

 

---sup

 

Will be cool to see archaeology/restoration/alchemy have a spin and allow adding/removing runes by chances and having a system allowing rune-replacement by recovering or destroying old runes based on skill and how valuable placed rune is..

What we lack in the game is any kind of proper management for the runes/amount of runes and sockets on items; it's two unexplored and only hinted contents for expanding for existing items.  


I agree with most of the feedback, I have 2 small remarks though:
-- alchemy needs a buff to transmute metals of archaeology/restoration generated items, but turning them from copper to steel.. directly is a bit overpowering.. that way any rare/supreme item that was once a trash pile... is now epic roll; so either that should be somehow expensive or close to ridiculous amount of effort to achieve, still possible maybe.. but not trivial to do for rare/supreme/fantastic items


"Also moonmetals, i get moonmetal frags should be rare, but current state is ridiculous, I cleaned and discovered god knows how much fragments, from very old deeds, and very long  time ago disbanded also and i got only one, repeat only one moonmetal plate fragment so far... also tokens that could be nice source of moonmetals for imping are not smeltable. I get that getting full weight of token would be overkill, but at least allow to smelt them for some portion of its mass."
-- archaeology had 1 flaw.. with it's distribution.. it's place based and not skill based.. there's no spice to skill, there's no spice to random findings... YOU JUST HAVE TO BE ON RIGHT PLACE to find cool stuff - that's how you find the better fragments and that easily puts some way ahead of others; 
same thing allowed some to stockpile insane amounts of mm chibi tokens, which even smelted into 0.10kg lumps.. will be quite a lot of moon-metals ( imagine 40copper for 20-40min walk, or less done with woa trowel/shovel - YIKES, throw the balance of everything throw the window);


Dump the smelting to 0.03kg and you'll have only 1 action to improve something(way more if you imp needle/ring) like a weapon/armor/tool; this seems ridiculously low.. but will swarm the market with ez free 1 shot imps for gear, it's way better than nothing and puts a lot of high ql rolls; don't forget you get the token as bonus to the cache.. your call to smelt or not, it's still more worth as 1 shot imp than decoration, huh


--speaking as somebody with 97 archaeology & 99restoration
Found enchants are pretty stupid indeed, best it to find an actual weapon and not a tool or branch(classified as weapon..) with bloodthirst.. just because now you have something you could level up to greatness.. or sell as useful enchanted item(seen such to sell well and fast on trade, don't take 'well' as expensive)


--
"...carving knives, butchering knives, etc should not be weapons frags, should be tools even though WS is used to imp them,"
-- sadly these are technically weapons.. along with signs and belaying pins, etc into wurm code/db.. so.. yea... hilarious...... even though they do pathetic damage and require ws to improve... they are trash weapons.. but still.. weapons


--
I'd love some unique arch findings.. <wont mention items>, but possibility to unlock new item recipes.. OHHH BUOY, wont we all go into the woods and look for stuff into the dirt(not literally.. but investigating will then mean new abilities)


--
as long whatever unique you find on chaos remains on chaos(not possible to mail or transfer through borders) and you cant transfer it to pve servers, I vote with 2 hands for it; pmk, scuffed crude artifacts.. do whatever there, BUT KEEP IT THERE


--
fragment storage will be great addition to the game.. that should destroy thousands of items existing into the world, lower local lag, etc..
All a player needs for this is several bulk container units and name and put locks to sort fragments and ql, will be win:win for players and server/client performances.

If you tie enchant and rune options to QL and player skill and not place where it was found and information got rolled, does it matter.. you'll still have good item if you have good skill;
Personally I am not at all fan of .. having good skill and be crippled by finding trash because you're in low history area that just ruins player's experience and reward for high skill.. imagine having 100 channeling and making casting only enchants up to 20, or 100 ws/bs/cas/pas/lw.. and improving to low quality.. makes no sense;
SURE, ......... realism, O.K., nobody cares.. it's a game.. where's the fun in that?
Similar nonsens is pulled with fishing.. go to lake.. deeper water, shallow water, have a tree close by, use this bait at sunset while your float is specifically this and not that... and so on..; that's not a thing in wurm world.. for anything else - you go in the woods and you find a cow.. or a dragon eats you, there's your balance to what you find and have to deal with, there's no low and high level grounds - encounters are unpredictable and your skill/gear/ability lets you handle them, some skills like arch/fishing took that away from the players in a game with skill progression promising to build your abilities...

Edited by Finnn
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1 hour ago, kochinac said:

OMG the randomness of stupid runes you get from restoring items, must I comment that. Most of the runes are useless, and even those who are good are in the wrong things. Having chance to extract runes, and having way to add extra rune slot to existing item of your choice somehow would make runes from archeology much more satisfying. 

or keeping my hopes small, just dont allow runes and enchants on shafts and branches, after a certain skill 100% of the branches and shafts you get are enchanted and cannot be stored on bsbs.

1 hour ago, kochinac said:

how to max chances to get complete report, how to get better frags. WU code is riddled with all kind of interesting conditions.

something i heard from someone else which may or may not be correct is that there is a limit of 150 you must reach to get max rewards, adding your skill+report ql+area score.

Edited by Tpikol
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The ability to remove and reuse runes would go a long way. Even if it wasn't a 100% chance to do so, but a chance none the less.

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2 minutes ago, Rudie said:

The ability to remove and reuse runes would go a long way. Even if it wasn't a 100% chance to do so, but a chance none the less.

 

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6 minutes ago, Tpikol said:

or keeping my hopes small, just dont allow runes and enchants on shafts and branches, after a certain skill 100% of the branches and shafts you get are enchanted and cannot be stored on bsbs.

 

You can dispell them. Probably not worth it for regular shafts but those aren't worth anything anyway. But that allows you to keep special wood shafts in a bsb.

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3 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

 

You can dispell them. Probably not worth it for regular shafts but those aren't worth anything anyway. But that allows you to keep special wood shafts in a bsb.

 

I also tend to just make the shafts (that come out with runes/enchants) into pegs -- potentially can go alot further with crafting other items

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1 hour ago, Lisimba said:

 

You can dispell them. Probably not worth it for regular shafts but those aren't worth anything anyway. But that allows you to keep special wood shafts in a bsb.

sure, if you a priest or someone willing to do it for you. if you dont you have to do what Red said, make a shaft our of the branches and waste the rest of it by sacing it and turn the shafts into pegs.( of course im talking about the special wood ones, who cares about the rest.)

Edited by Tpikol
typos
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37 minutes ago, Red_ said:

 

I also tend to just make the shafts (that come out with runes/enchants) into pegs -- potentially can go alot further with crafting other items

yeah this is something I do too, rather than to wait to have priest around to dispell, i also make shafts from brances and drop remaining enchanted branch into trash

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1 hour ago, Finnn said:

-- alchemy needs a buff to transmute metals of archaeology/restoration generated items, but turning them from copper to steel.. directly is a bit overpowering.. that way any rare/supreme item that was once a trash pile... is now epic roll; so either that should be somehow expensive or close to ridiculous amount of effort to achieve, still possible maybe.. but not trivial to do for rare/supreme/fantastic items

perhaps i wasn't clear enough, but my suggestion isn't that you could transmute copper to steel. imo transmutation should work only inside tiers(metal, aloys, moonmetals). you would never be able to turn copper into steel, just brass and bronze into steel and viceversa, also zinc, lead, copper, tin and whats else into iron... and why not,  seryll and addy into glimmer but nothing else beside that within it's own group. You won't be able to up the tier by transmutation 

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2 hours ago, kochinac said:

And finally, lack of storage where fragments won't decay on deed makes me sad. Ideally i would just allow cleaned/uncleaned fragments to go to bsb, would make life so much easier for sorting by ql, type and name. Saving 90+ ql armour frags to combine whith eachother for me would be worth if i don't have 90+ armour skill for example...Or storing statue fragments without magic chest, But i don't think putting in bsb is possible because of informations that fragments carry that would be lost in bsb, even with cleaned ones, someone correct me if i'm wrong. So any other way of mass storage that would uttilize sorting and saving them from decay on deed is desperatly needed.

 

This has been my main dilemma with archaeology too. I started off using cupboards (storing the frags inside buckets/satchels in the cupboard) in my house (I was told decay rate is minimal inside buildings, idk the full info/details/truth behind that, but I have noticed decay rate isn't TOO bad). With that said, I still always feel rushed to get done restoring my unidentified frags because I am afraid of losing any. It's kind of unfair, when it takes so long to gather all the fragments and because I usually gather 1000s before I start actually restoring them.

 

Since I've started other projects around my deed, and I just want to casually do fragment restoration, I have moved over to storing all my fragments into a large magical chest. I have satchels and buckets that I've runed/had runed for 10% capacity increase, but eventually you do meet the item/weight limit with the LMCs too. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't really want to complain about this, but I feel like it would be a really nice feature to add a dedicated storage container JUST for frags. I do like the idea of being able to throw unidentifieds into BSBs, but like you said idk if that would ever be a possibility because fragments would lose internal data I'm assuming.

 

Either way, ty for pointing this out in your post. You have said alot of other things, that I also can heavily agree with, I just don't want to ramble on, as I don't know if the developers care about our opinions or not (saying that in the nicest way possible, because I genuinely don't know) or if changes would ever happen anyway. :)

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1 hour ago, Finnn said:

fragment storage will be great addition to the game.. that should destroy thousands of items existing into the world, lower local lag, etc..
All a player needs for this is several bulk container units and name and put locks to sort fragments and ql, will be win:win for players and server/client performances.

If you tie enchant and rune options to QL and player skill and not place where it was found and information got rolled, does it matter.. you'll still have good item if you have good skill;

yeah agree, result should be more dependant on the skill not on info contained on fragment imo too, would pay off a lot if it would allow fragments to go to bsb, but i doub't they will want to change that

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Not a perfect solution, but I store my fragments in satchels in a small magic chest to cut decay.

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13 hours ago, Pandalet said:

Not a perfect solution, but I store my fragments in satchels in a small magic chest to cut decay.

yeah, for those important like statues and masks, I keep fragments combined to save space
I also keep satchel for 90+ ql armour or potery items so i can get 90ql item after combining

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I do like the idea of transmutation.

 

As it stands, it's a complete lottery whether your rare/supreme item is hugely useful or — to use the most appropriate British phrase I can think of — as useful as a chocolate teapot.

 

Being able to change materials would be very useful, as long as it isn't exploitable. One note here: the price of moon metals is currently based on lump size, not weight. This means that a player could, in theory, make a pickaxe head from 1 lump of seryll, transmute it to adamantine, and smelt it down to give 2.5 lumps. This either needs to be prohibited for moon metals, or the price of transmutation needs to be high enough to deter people from following this course. I'd lean toward the former. I don't want transmutation to be prohibitively expensive, and it's easy enough to rationalize alchemy only working on worldly materials, not on moon metals.

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3 hours ago, Sheffie said:

I do like the idea of transmutation.

 

As it stands, it's a complete lottery whether your rare/supreme item is hugely useful or — to use the most appropriate British phrase I can think of — as useful as a chocolate teapot.

 

Being able to change materials would be very useful, as long as it isn't exploitable. One note here: the price of moon metals is currently based on lump size, not weight. This means that a player could, in theory, make a pickaxe head from 1 lump of seryll, transmute it to adamantine, and smelt it down to give 2.5 lumps. This either needs to be prohibited for moon metals, or the price of transmutation needs to be high enough to deter people from following this course. I'd lean toward the former. I don't want transmutation to be prohibitively expensive, and it's easy enough to rationalize alchemy only working on worldly materials, not on moon metals.

transmutation should be reasonably expensive, expecially for upper tiers of materials. Could be something simmilar to tile transmutations, using fruit juices, reserving lingoberry as hardest to obtain for moonmetals. Not sure if raw lumps should be allowed to be transmuted or just exclusively items, although with smelting in game it doesn't really matter that much.

I don't quite follow your fear with moonmetals? could you please explain in more detail how it could be abused? unless i'm missing something you need  1kg of seryl to make it pickaxe head, you transmute it to addy and smelt you get 0.9kg of addy, don't see how you get 2.5 lumps from 1 lump?

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7 minutes ago, kochinac said:

I don't quite follow your fear with moonmetals? could you please explain in more detail how it could be abused? unless i'm missing something you need  1kg of seryl to make it pickaxe head, you transmute it to addy and smelt you get 0.9kg of addy, don't see how you get 2.5 lumps from 1 lump?

 

For 3s I can buy 1kg of seryll, which I can make into a pickaxe head, which I can transmute into an adamantine pickaxe head, which I can smelt down into 0.9kg of adamantine lump, which I can put into a crate and take out as 2.25 lumps of adamantine, which I can sell for 6.75s.

 

(This is based on the recent NFI prices of 3s per lump - feel free to scale the values as needed)

Edited by Sheffie

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1 minute ago, Sheffie said:

 

For 3s I can buy 1kg of seryll, which I can make into a pickaxe head, which I can transmute into an adamantine pickaxe head, which I can smelt down into 0.9kg of adamantine lump, which I can put into a crate and take out as 2.25 lumps of adamantine, which I can sell for 7s.

 

(This is based on the recent NFI prices of 3s per lump - feel free to scale the values as needed)

wait, base weight of lumps is 1kg for serryl, and 0.4 for addy and glimmer, right? if it is, i forgot about it. wasn't aware that people pay same price per base lump weight rather than to true weight, it doesn't make sense at all lol. But don't see it as much of problem anyway, market will settle prices to be by weight at the end if transmutation would be possible

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The problem with moon metals is that the mechanisms by which people get them - either as a reward at a rift, or by purchasing from the Marks store - both have the same cost for a lump. It's as hard to earn one at a rift, and it costs as many Marks to buy one, whether it's 1kg seryll or 0.4kg adamantine/glimmersteel. I'd be very surprised if transmutation made the two interchangeable.

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2 hours ago, Sheffie said:

The problem with moon metals is that the mechanisms by which people get them - either as a reward at a rift, or by purchasing from the Marks store - both have the same cost for a lump. It's as hard to earn one at a rift, and it costs as many Marks to buy one, whether it's 1kg seryll or 0.4kg adamantine/glimmersteel. I'd be very surprised if transmutation made the two interchangeable.

Yeah i see. Good point. Well i guess that should be readjusted too. Thanks for noticing.

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The randomness, materials, runes and bad enchants
I think that the negatives of a rare non-iron tool are overblown - a copper tool takes 15% more damage, but the supreme damage reduction (19%) more than offsets that. I don't want to take away your feeling however, it leads to some nice cheap supremes.

 

But the runes are where you'll find me completely agreeing - the runes are completely hamstrung, with the runes we use often (harvest QL) being disabled from rolling - kneecapping that real lottery roll of a once-in-a-lifetime great item.

 

For the enchants I haven't had coc nails in a while, have I just been lucky? I really miss the negative enchants, like imagine getting a -99woa hammer.

 

 

Bad fragment categorization
This seems to be a bug that may need resolved.
Here's the relevant code: it takes the item the fragment will form, and checks its Types in order. When it succeeds, it stops.

 else {
        
        builder.append("unidentified ");
        if (getRealTemplate() != null && getAuxData() >= 65)
        {
          if (getRealTemplate().isWeapon()) {
            builder.append("weapon ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isArmour()) {
            builder.append("armour ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isTool()) {
            builder.append("tool ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isStatue()) {
            builder.append("statue ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isHollow()) {
            builder.append("container ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isRiftLoot()) {
            builder.append("rift ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isMetal()) {
            builder.append("metal ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isWood()) {
            builder.append("wooden ");
          }  } 
        builder.append(this.name);
        
        return builder.toString();
      } 

the issue comes from isWeapon being checked so soon - since there's no wooden weapons (I think) in the pool, a far better organizing would be:

 else {
        
        builder.append("unidentified ");
        if (getRealTemplate() != null && getAuxData() >= 65)
        {
          if (getRealTemplate().isRiftLoot()) {
            builder.append("rift ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isArmour()) {
            builder.append("armour ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isStatue()) {
            builder.append("statue ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isHollow()) {
            builder.append("container ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isWood()) {
            builder.append("wooden ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isTool()) {
            builder.append("tool ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isWeapon()) {
            builder.append("weapon ");
          } else if (getRealTemplate().isMetal()) {
            builder.append("metal ");
          }  } 
        builder.append(this.name);
        
        return builder.toString();
      } 

This should solve each example you gave into the categories you mentioned.
Despite me going through the code here I definitely do not have the brainpower to delve the code you mentioned in the P.S.

 

Wood fragments
The lack of planks certainly hurts but I don't think the arrow fragments are a problem - sure, they're not good, but this is a system that needs junk. It's archaeology, sometimes you're gonna dig up their trash.

 

Storage
I put my non-statue/mask fragments into renamed amphorae in a steel vyn runed amphora rack and most have not taken damage for rl years. Not ideal, but it's so good.

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On a whole I rather like the archeology. I love the nostalgia of collecting tokens from deeds that have fallen. I'm tickled by the chests popping up to be plundered. I like wondering about finding new scenic places to investigate. I enjoy the satisfaction of putting the statues together and displaying them. I like the mystery of what the fragments will be when fully cleaned. I find the masks amusing and like displaying them too. Granted I have a ton of items I will never use but if I made the effort I'm sure I could find a home for them. Yes the fragment decay rates can be annoying but they make sense to me as items often exposed to air after centuries underground or underwater can rapidly decay if not properly handled. A solution to this could be a higher archeology skill translating into slower decay rates on items found. In truth though the only problem I really have with archeology is the unusable wasted runes and enchants. If allowed to reclaim the runes and use them properly with the appropriate damage and fail rates and if the enchants would pop up on the appropriate items I would have no real issues at all... well other than running out of storage and display space.

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Perhaps two more Archaeology sub-skills, Preservation and Recovery.

 

Preservation would be the use of alcohol, tar, and wax to "seal" fragments so that they decay at a much reduced rate.

 

Recovery would be the removal of Runes, intact, from a runed object.

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1 hour ago, Sheffie said:

Perhaps two more Archaeology sub-skills, Preservation and Recovery.

 

Preservation would be the use of alcohol, tar, and wax to "seal" fragments so that they decay at a much reduced rate.

 

Recovery would be the removal of Runes, intact, from a runed object.

Would rather tie recovery chance of runes to sould depth or soul strenght or even better to restoration skill itself. Don't see the need to introduce new skills...

Also i hate term much reduced rate, it's either no decay at all or it doesn't really matter to me, my ocd is giving me hard times when i see damaged items that can't be repaired lol. It's mostly about esthetics really, currently decay is slow enough to loose only low ql fragments, but i really hate to have to watch and work with all that 25ish dmg fragments.

I mean, simple no decay on deed would work as well, or inside some special shelf on deed but that shelf would have to have tens of drawers or something to facilitate huge amount of fragments.

I think some kind of storage would be better solution. Something like bsb would be perfect as i said it would solve both sorting and decay issue. Sealing each fragment individual seems like too much work.

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10 hours ago, kochinac said:

I think some kind of storage would be better solution. Something like bsb would be perfect as i said it would solve both sorting and decay issue. Sealing each fragment individual seems like too much work.

Fragments can't be stored like that because each fragment carries a lot of data, they can't be bulk stored. 

 

tbh I just do a magic chest for the long term stuff, and the amphora for stuff I don't mind taking damage

 

 

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