Rudie

Locked containers on Freedom

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So recently I've come across a lot of disbanded deeds with locked bsbs, shelves, chests etc. Nothing annoys me more than not being able to lockpick and take the contents or the container itself, and that the only way to remove these is naturally, or pushing them onto a lava tile, and even then, the contents of bsbs/fsbs/bcu disappear. Given that some of these containers can take weeks, sometimes months to decay, especially if inside mines, they become one more thing that clutters the game after ships and carts made by players that are no longer playing. So my suggestion is simple, add some sort of check or timer to see how long since it has been interacted with(should be easy considering there is already a way for gms to see tile logs), and if it surpasses that time, either allow the lock to be broken off with a crowbar and claim the item, or allow us to lockpick and claim them.

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One of reasons why the returners are willing to stay after they return is, they can use the items in the locked bsbs, shelves, chests they made before. Imagine all the locked things are gone after ur return. 

 

16 minutes ago, Rudie said:

and that the only way to remove these is naturally, or pushing them(locked bsbs, shelves, chests etc) onto a lava tile, and even then, the contents of bsbs/fsbs/bcu disappear.

Is this consider griefing? 

 

23 minutes ago, Rudie said:

Nothing annoys me more than not being able to lockpick and take the contents or the container itself

If people want to play lockpick, there are PVP servers in this game. Alright, PVE servers annoys OP.
 

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Can you lock pick them if you deed over them?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Coach said:

One of reasons why the returners are willing to stay after they return is, they can use the items in the locked bsbs, shelves, chests they made before. Imagine all the locked things are gone after ur return. 

I might be wrong but isn't the concern more that your deed might fall? Once your deed fall it gets ransacked, once your buildings fall they get ransacked. I assumed the locking feature was mainly to keep deedmates out. However, there could be something said about those that are fresh and haven't made a deed, but ehhhh there's probably a solution for that and I don't think it'll be that big of an issue. 

 

On the flip side too, imagine all the stuff that decays because their owner doesn't come back. While it could be argued they're a good sink for the game I think it's sad that all their work goes to waste and the world reclaims it. Having a way to take advantage of all things left behind would be really cool. All the signatures that could be collected, finding peoples sentimentals and treasuring them, so they don't rot. 

 

And for the sake of getting good stuff it's always sad to hear about Large Magical Chests that slowwwwwwly decay and poof. The contents being forgotten.

 

57 minutes ago, Tor said:

Can you lock pick them if you deed over them?

I don't believe so, but I think that'd be a great use for PvE lockpicking! 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Zuelatak
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Posted (edited)

No you cannot. Afaik you can ticket a GM to move them off deed. Lockpicking in PvE only works on stuff owned by you, even on deed.

Edited by Ekcin
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1 hour ago, Coach said:

1. One of reasons why the returners are willing to stay after they return is, they can use the items in the locked bsbs, shelves, chests they made before. Imagine all the locked things are gone after ur return. 

 

2. Is this consider griefing? 

 

3. If people want to play lockpick, there are PVP servers in this game. Alright, PVE servers annoys OP.
 

 

1. If a deed disbands due to upkeep, 95% of the time, the player has quit(or sadly, passed away), leaving everything, including locked containers behind, which have zero benefit to anybody except being an eye sore on their deed, and as Ekcin said, a ticket can be put in for GMs to move it, but why should that even need to happen if a mechanic was put in place to allow someone to take over ownership after a certain amount of time.

 

2. No. Also, if an item is placed, it can't even be moved by anyone but the person that placed it. You can't even bash containers not owned by you off deed, but you can bash someones fence off deed(Not legally, but you can do it).

 

3. This has zero to do with PVE servers annoying me and more with the clutter that gets left around by people who have moved on. Even as Ekcin said, you can only lockpick your owned containers, no one elses, even if you are the mayor of said deed.

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Oh look, another "Let's enable stealing on pve servers" thread.

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+1 It's quite annoying that we can't use our lockpicking skill to claim things that are gonna decay anyway. Looting abbandoned deeds is so much fun and so frustrating at same times because of the mechanics.

If someone plans to return to Wurm or take a break they should check if deed has enough upkeep before going, otherwise everything should be for grabs once its disbanded and player hasn't logged in for sufficient time...

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Posted (edited)

If you deed over something, you should own it flat out - in time - as the op suggests. Read on.

 

If I leave the game, leave things off deed or don't maintain the upkeep of a deed like everyone else must, then whatever I left sitting around on public land should be fair game. 

 

We live and die by deed protections on pve ultimately, so why should a locked chest or a wagon just left out be any different than say a rare sword sitting there on the ground unprotected by deed? The only reservation I have is maybe the chest owner or wagon owner just temporarily put the item there or had to quickly log out and will be back soon for it, so then, in the spirit of pve, maybe a timer of sorts that the game checks before you try to take it. So, if you deed over a locked chest, and its owner hasn't interacted with it in 30 days for example, it can then be picked and claimed by the deed that it sets on currently.

 

IRL it''s similar to this in many places. You buy a piece of land, the land has an old car on it. The owner of the old car does have a process available to them to get their car, but if they don't timely follow that process, the car becomes the land owner's due to time elapsed and physical ownership.

 

Time passage is a huge component to the rule of law irl. In some states (US), you can even build a perimeter fence around your property that is well beyond your perimeter and into your neighbors' land. If that fence stays uncontested for 7 years, that then becomes your legal boundaries. If you find a bag of money on the street and make it known and no one steps up to claim it after a prescribed span of time, it legally becomes yours. Time mixed with physical ownership are big components to how many issues are sorted. Is it always "right" or "fair"? The law tries to balance that by giving people time to act. If you don't act within a reasonable amount of time, you lost the fairness being extended to you. Same concept should be in wurm for things like locked chests and wagons sitting on your deed for a long time without original owner speaking up or acting.

Edited by MordosKull
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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, kochinac said:

 

If someone plans to return to Wurm or take a break they should check if deed has enough upkeep before going, otherwise everything should be for grabs once its disbanded and player hasn't logged in for sufficient time...

 

So, I have an emergency & don't have time/ability to login to wurm for 2 months and my deed falls... I should be rewarded by having everything on my deed, including stuff I locked up, stolen? 

 

Also, newer players have all their stuff stolen from unlocked off deed bsb's and quit/lose interest over it. Just imagine if they locked everything and thought they were doing it right.

 

If you want PvP mechanics, go to a pvp server.

Edited by zethreal
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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, zethreal said:

So, I have an emergency & don't have time/ability to login to wurm for 2 months and my deed falls... I should be rewarded by having everything on my deed, including stuff I locked up, stolen? 

 

Then how long do you suggest someone gone from the game be given protections everyone else has to pay for? At some point, you've been given plenty of benefit of doubt and the people actively in the game can prevail, whether it's by removing crap off their deed they don't want there, or maybe they can now deed where otherwise they couldn't or can open a locked chest. At some point, you've been gone long enough without paying dues and it's not your right to ownership and indefinite monopolizing a location or items left laying about. Even if you worked long and hard for those things whenever you did way back. Forever protected such as is basically the mechanic now, is very flawed.

Edited by MordosKull
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Maybe something like: If the owner didn't log last 2-3 months and the item have like 50+ or whatever amount decided damage, the lock come off? That way there can be legit abandoned without people complaining about lockpicking

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1 minute ago, Tor said:

Maybe something like: If the owner didn't log last 2-3 months and the item have like 50+ or whatever amount decided damage, the lock come off? That way there can be legit abandoned without people complaining about lockpicking

Yes, there needs to be a set time that allows for someone to come back if they had an emergency or whatever kept them away. Beyond that, active players get the benefit of the doubt having waited a just amount of time.

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1 hour ago, Zuelatak said:

I might be wrong but isn't the concern more that your deed might fall? Once your deed fall it gets ransacked, once your buildings fall they get ransacked.

People can ransacked anything but not the things that is locked, because people don't have access to it. They can only accessed by the return players and the players that have permissions.
I saw something on the CA help when people question about pushing them(locked bsbs, shelves, chests etc) onto a lava tile. P.s. the pusher don't have any permissions on the locked containers. The deed is disbanded.
<Lyhrinae> (Rel) Lockpicking anything you do not explicitly own or are the opriginal owner of is a violation of the rules.
<Seriphina> (Xan) Lockpicking anything that does not belong to you is not permitted.

 

Well, people can suggest to ransack locked containers on PVE server. But for now people can't ransack locked container that they don't have a permission.

 

1 hour ago, Rudie said:

1. If a deed disbands due to upkeep, 95% of the time, the player has quit(or sadly, passed away), leaving everything, including locked containers behind, which have zero benefit to anybody except being an eye sore on their deed, and as Ekcin said, a ticket can be put in for GMs to move it, but why should that even need to happen if a mechanic was put in place to allow someone to take over ownership after a certain amount of time.

2. No. Also, if an item is placed, it can't even be moved by anyone but the person that placed it. You can't even bash containers not owned by you off deed, but you can bash someones fence off deed(Not legally, but you can do it).

Because people don't know the owner so well, 

99% of people don't know the locked container owner is actually quit (even if they said to u they quit, some still return, i encountered some of them)

99% of people don't know when the owner return to this game. Its nice to have access to the locked containers after a return, that give a reason for the returner to stay. If a people return to wurm, does it count as a benefit to wurm? Even if its just 1%?

How do people know what decisions the locked container owner will make if they are not the owner?


OP said it urself, pushing them(locked bsbs, shelves, chests etc) onto a lava tile. That means OP know the off deed locked containers are not secured, OP know the off deed locked container can be moved. The off deed locked containers can be moved onto a lava tile to make it disappear even u can't bash the off deed locked containers to make it disappear.
Is this consider griefing? Not sure but tend to a yes?

 

PVE servers are not being able to lockpick. Some people just get annoyed by the PVE mechanic. So they make suggestions.

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55 minutes ago, zethreal said:

Oh look, another "Let's enable stealing on pve servers" thread.

You can't steal abandoned goods, and when your deed/buildings fall plenty of things get "stolen"

 

24 minutes ago, MordosKull said:

so why should a locked chest or a wagon just left out be any different than say a rare sword sitting there on the ground unprotected by deed?

Yeah I def think at least vehicles should not be pick lockable unless they were on the deed at the time that it fell. I think when a deed falls it should trigger all locks within it to be pick lockable. 

 

I think we can allow for vehicles offdeed to rot for now and see how the rest of the change goes.

 

10 minutes ago, zethreal said:

So, I have an emergency & don't have time/ability to login to wurm for 2 months and my deed falls... I should be rewarded by having everything on my deed, including stuff I locked up, stolen? 

You shouldn't be no, but that is an unfortunate case and a lot of those already exist in Wurm. The fact that everything on your deed excluding your locked up stuff gets stolen shouldn't happen to you. However, the common outcome is that people have quit, abandoned their belongings, and it goes from being a PvP mechanic to a PvE mechanic. If there's no one to own the item, then the environment owns it.

 

There's a possibility we can't prevent your issue from happening, but I don't think it weighs enough of a point to counter the gains.

 

12 minutes ago, zethreal said:

Also, newer players have all their stuff stolen from unlocked off deed bsb's and quit/lose interest over it. Just imagine if they locked everything and thought they were doing it right.

However, this is a good point! But I do think this is more the fault of the game for not encouraging players enough to start off by joining a deed and gaining that safety. Or to at least tell that by having their belongings in a building they will remain safe.

 

13 minutes ago, zethreal said:

If you want PvP mechanics, go to a pvp server.

Again I believe in the case that the player is quit and the item is destined to decay it becomes a PvE mechanic. 

 

4 minutes ago, Coach said:

Well, people can suggest to ransack locked containers on PVE server. But for now people can't ransack locked container that they don't have a permission.

But that's what we're doing now. Suggesting to ransack locked containers. You expressed the concern of locked things being gone, but the thing truly protecting those locked things is your deed. That's why if it falls everything except your locked goods become forfeit for now

 

7 minutes ago, Coach said:

OP said it urself, pushing them(locked bsbs, shelves, chests etc) onto a lava tile. That means OP know the off deed locked containers are not secured, OP know the off deed locked container can be moved. The off deed locked containers can be moved onto a lava tile to make it disappear even u can't bash the off deed locked containers to make it disappear.
Is this consider griefing? Not sure but tend to a yes?

I would probably agree with that being griefing, but that should be another thread as it doesn't pertain to the idea of lockpicking or not.

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12 minutes ago, Coach said:

Is this consider griefing? Not sure but tend to a yes?

 

Probably not griefing, as for a while now everything off deed is a fair game, i think, after the changed the enclosure rule, so even the fances and gates can be bashed.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

If there's no one to own the item, then the environment owns it.

Though it takes away from the heir of the excitement of being able to finally get into that long-locked and abandoned chest or whatnot, at least this would be a way of dissolving of the issue so that active players aren't in neverending conflict with stuff long left abandoned. - let the environment claim it.

 

Maybe then archaeology gets involved.  hmmm

Edited by MordosKull
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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, MordosKull said:

Though it takes away from the heir of the excitement of being to get into that long-locked and abandoned chest or whatnot, at least this would be a way of dissolving of the issue so that active players aren't in neverending conflict with stuff long left abandoned. - let the environment claim it.

 

Maybe then archaeology gets involved.  hmmm

Sorry I got confused on what the first part is saying, when a player quits the environment claims it in that moment. Not when the container decays and the items go with it.

 

Doesn't that mean a solution to the problem could be having the contents of containers spill out onto the ground? 

 

Archaeology def sounds like another alternative solution. Items lost to a locked container somehow being discoverable by archaeology? But I think that would just encourage more people to use lava tiles on locked goods, and IDK how you'd incorporate all that loot into a mechanic.

Edited by Zuelatak

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Tor said:

Probably not griefing, as for a while now everything off deed is a fair game, i think, after the changed the enclosure rule, so even the fances and gates can be bashed.

Probably a griefing? Locked containers can't be bashed even though fances and gates can be bashed, i believe locked containers ain't suppose to be destroyed by any methods, including by lava. 

Edited by Coach

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11 minutes ago, Coach said:

Probably a griefing? Locked containers can't be bashed, i believe they ain't suppose to be destroyed by any methods, including by lava. 

 

The lava obviously wasn't overlooked either, so it's not griefing because you can chose not to secure your item, planted in the ground or otherwise.

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i think that if a players deed fall to abandonment and is gone for over three months things that were locked outside of buildings should be able to be lockpicked and things that were inside a decaying (safe) building get the same treatment 3 months after the building decays away, also when someone deeds over an area that has such containers or secured/unmovable items should either get the full rights to the items or the ability to move them offdeed/bash the items.

One of my deeds currently has a bunch of items from a long abandoned previous deed that i have had to painstakenly push off deed because they cant be removed by bashing notably stupid hitching posts and locked chest/bsbs it would be so much easier if i could either access and pick them up to remove or be able to bash them away. so am i griefing the person who was ioriginal owner of the stuff i dont consider it griefing by me but having such undamagable items unmovable items on deed very annoying and when i can make a lava tile in the near future i will definately be destroying the carts and hitching posts that clutter my expanded deed

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1 hour ago, zethreal said:

 

So, I have an emergency & don't have time/ability to login to wurm for 2 months and my deed falls... I should be rewarded by having everything on my deed, including stuff I locked up, stolen? 

 

Also, newer players have all their stuff stolen from unlocked off deed bsb's and quit/lose interest over it. Just imagine if they locked everything and thought they were doing it right.

 

If you want PvP mechanics, go to a pvp server.

If you have just 2 months of upkeep yes. Really don't know who in right mind if is invested in this game would have just 2 months in upkeep.

Beside suggestion isn't that it should be unlockable right away but after you havent logged in for significant time, which should be 3 months when rapid decay starts so with 3+ month protection is more then fine, plus keep things in building even with rapid decay would take week, probably more for high ql walls so no problem there. New players won't be affected if they are logging fairly regular, their account would be deleted if not premmed and logged in for 3 months anyway.

I don't want pvp mechanics, i just want to use lockpicking on freedom under right circumstances.

For most of the cases it would only apply for people who really stopped playing. For others, be responsible and take care of your things it isn't reason to stop this just because someone is lazy and irresponsible.

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Yes please.  A few years ago (I think) I took over a old abandoned deed and it had 30-40 or so bulk storage bins that were all locked.   I had to push them all off deed and into the water to decay away.   

 

What a massive waste!  They could of held lots of wonderful materials to help build up the deed but also even if not, they would of made nice storage homes.  Without having to make new ones.

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Posted (edited)

Lets wait the team to have a confirmed answer on the lava situation on a locked containers and vehicles that they don't have any permissions whether its on deed or off deed. Consider a griefing or not? 

Can see people attempt to do it or might already did it on PVE server. 

 

1 hour ago, zethreal said:

Also, newer players have all their stuff stolen from unlocked off deed bsb's and quit/lose interest over it. Just imagine if they locked everything and thought they were doing it right.

Locked containers are destroyed(lava) or gone besides natural decaying. That's a reasonable reason to quit no matter how good is the new player tutorial. Time to make a tutorial for veteran on how to be nice to the new players to make them stay.

Edited by Coach

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Rudie said:

So recently I've come across a lot of disbanded deeds with locked bsbs, shelves, chests etc. Nothing annoys me more than not being able to lockpick and take the contents or the container itself, and that the only way to remove these is naturally, or pushing them onto a lava tile, and even then, the contents of bsbs/fsbs/bcu disappear. Given that some of these containers can take weeks, sometimes months to decay, especially if inside mines, they become one more thing that clutters the game after ships and carts made by players that are no longer playing. So my suggestion is simple, add some sort of check or timer to see how long since it has been interacted with(should be easy considering there is already a way for gms to see tile logs), and if it surpasses that time, either allow the lock to be broken off with a crowbar and claim the item, or allow us to lockpick and claim them.

You can always move out to chaos, there you can always solve this problem?

 

--edit

There's a thing with houses and decay.. maybe that could be transferred to items with locks... furniture/containers of all sorts.. gates/doors... but then.. where is the persistence?

 

Edited by Finnn
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