New Player Tutorial

[DaletheGood 1,073]

17 minutes ago, Madnath said:

The Josh video does have statistics though. They're just... sketchy-ish

Yeah, I for one found his so-called statistics wildly off. I'm not on steam, so my stats are not reflected there, neither are those who play on the native client (which is much superior, imo). Yes, he has villagers coming to his place, fine, those players that have given him their reasons for quitting form part of his belief system. I have also helped at least 50 new players in my time in Wurm. Of those who I was able to ask why they were quitting, not one of them said it was because of the tutorial, or lack of pop-up tool-tips.

[DaletheGood 1,073]

2 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

your experience isn't the only one, nor is it more important

I have never said that it was, but by the same token, neither is Zuelatak's or yours for that matter. I have a view that is opposite of Zuelatak's, so consider it a counterpoint

[Tomatoes 276]

4 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

I have never said that it was, but by the same token, neither is Zuelatak's or yours for that matter. I have a view that is opposite of Zuelatak's, so consider it a counterpoint

so in your experience why did they all(those you helped) quit? are there any common denominators?

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Tomatoes

[Zuelatak 235]

  

1 minute ago, DaletheGood said:

I've read a LOT of the Wiki. It's how I learned this game without going to CA-Help for every little question.

We all have. It's the only option we have Dale. Of course we've read the wiki, but we don't want to have to. 

 

2 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

I don't find tool-tips and pop-ups that helpful as they rarely contain more than a brief overview of the subject matter.

That brief overview is enough to get you started which is what a tutorial is for. Yes, the in depth nitty gritty details will still be what the wiki is used for. People are complaining that they can't even get the brief details without having to look at the wiki.

 

  

2 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

I am going to add my example from above to the OP. You obviously have ideas on what the first 'tooltips' should be. What would they be like?

I'm picturing you start with the server select. Have some text on it that explains the different types of servers and maybe have icons or colors to see them more clearly.

 

Once you've selected a server, and spawn location you pop up and immediately get a popup that explains WASD movement, camera movement, etc.

 

At the end of that I picture a popup that says to hit J to open the journal and in it will be listed a bunch of skills or questlines whatever that provide rewards

 

Whilst working on those quests such as Carpentry like I listed earlier they would receive more popup tutorials.

[DaletheGood 1,073]

8 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

so in your experience why did they all(those you helped) quit? are there any common denominators?

The vast majority quit because the game was too slow for them, so clearly that's not an issue that needs to be addressed, it's an inherent part of this game and to change that would, in my opinion, wreck the game. Some quit for RL personal issues, too busy, got a girlfriend or new baby at home, etc. Can't change that either. A couple played for a couple years and got bored of grinding, or didn't have a clear direction in the game. Again, can't really change that as no real Wurm player wants a game where you're handheld and guided with must-do missions or quests, at least I don't. The vast majority just left the game without saying why, as I suspect the vast majority of those who leave do. Those you'll never know why they quit.

Edited May 7, 2022 by DaletheGood
clarity

[Tomatoes 276]

5 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

We all have. It's the only option we have Dale. Of course we've read the wiki, but we don't want to have to. 

Speak for your self on the bolded part, however, he wiki will never go away - this game is extremely complex and it will always be that way.

 

2 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

The vast majority quit because the game was too slow for them, so clearly that's not an issue that needs to be addressed, it's an inherent part of this game and to change that would, in my opinion, wreck the game. Some quit for RL personal issues, too busy, got a girlfriend or new baby at home, etc. Can't change that either. A couple played for a couple years and got bored of grinding, or didn't have a clear direction in the game. Again, can't really change that as no real Wurm player wants a game where you're handheld and guided with must-do missions or quests, at least I don't. The vast majority just leave the game without saying why, as I suspect the vast majority of those who leave do. Those you'll never know why they quit.

 

oh they say, you just keep missing it - TOO MUCH INPUT. the info dump the wiki gives people, drives them away. "its too much', or 'i cant figure things out' are main phrases they use Dale.

[Zuelatak 235]

1 minute ago, DaletheGood said:

clearly that's not an issue that needs to be addressed

Not here it doesn't, but every issue/concern about the game should be addressed somewhere.

 

3 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

didn't have a clear direction in the game

Also an issue that we can address somewhere else. Although my idea of expanding the journal with more specific skill entries would probably help a bit in this area.

 

 

 

 

[Zuelatak 235]

3 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

he wiki will never go away - this game is extremely complex and it will always be that way.

Didn't say it would go away. It's just meant for more in depth discussion about the game. The basics should be conveyed in the game not outside

 

Also, fun fact  sorry this viewer just made me laugh

Edited May 7, 2022 by Zuelatak

[Tomatoes 276]

13 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

I'm picturing you start with the server select. Have some text on it that explains the different types of servers and maybe have icons or colors to see them more clearly.

 

Once you've selected a server, and spawn location you pop up and immediately get a popup that explains WASD movement, camera movement, etc.

 

At the end of that I picture a popup that says to hit J to open the journal and in it will be listed a bunch of skills or questlines whatever that provide rewards

 

Whilst working on those quests such as Carpentry like I listed earlier they would receive more popup tutorials.

Much as you may not like it, i doubt the developers will remove the tutorial zone, however i can see them putting the server select at the end instead. 

however that assumes that a person has a "direction' they wish to follow, or have some idea of that to begin with. What if they didnt?

how would you help someone who didnt even know what they wanted to do in the game?

[DaletheGood 1,073]

18 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

oh they say, you just keep missing it - TOO MUCH INPUT. the info dump the wiki gives people, drives them away. "its too much', or 'i cant figure things out' are main phrases they use Dale.

that is your assumption. The wiki being too much to read was NEVER a reason that was given by those who gave me a reason they were quitting. Maybe your assumption is based on what people told you, which is valid for an assumption, but does not constitute proof.  Maybe your idea of tool-tips popping up when first activating a tool or interacting with something in the game is alright, and I'm not opposed to a new, better tutorial, but I find the argument that most players quit because those aren't in the game to be specious at best, and certainly not proof that that's the main driving force for people to quit.

[Zuelatak 235]

5 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

Much as you may not like it, i doubt the developers will remove the tutorial zone, however i can see them putting the server select at the end instead. 

I don't see why they would feel the need to keep it, but IDC really. However, I will point at the server select is already at the of the tutorial unless you mean something different

 

16 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

however that assumes that a person has a "direction' they wish to follow, or have some idea of that to begin with. What if they didnt?

Then there's nothing we can do unless you're advocating for forcing them down a path. From my experience with New Players having them look at the skills list and picking something that popped up generally got them moving. 

 

19 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

how would you help someone who didnt even know what they wanted to do in the game?

IDK give them a button that randomly picks a quest chain to follow? >.<

[Tomatoes 276]

32 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

that is your assumption.

Actually no, i got my information from elsewhere, and if you want the cold hard facts about it you can talk with the same someone who i asked, a psychologist that studies human behavior.

22 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

IDK give them a button that randomly picks a quest chain to follow? >.<

Why not give them a selection of quests; that way they feel in 'control'? no more then 4 or 5 options shown at one time, however, they are randomly selected from a much larger grouping.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Tomatoes
clarifcation

[Tomatoes 276]

23 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

Why not give them a selection of quests; that way they feel in 'control'? no more then 4 or 5 options shown at one time, however, they are randomly selected from a much larger grouping.

HA! This can be put on a standing board(like village recruitment board) in any starter city, that way a person can do things when ever - Call it the 'Bounty board'

Edited May 7, 2022 by Tomatoes

[Zuelatak 235]

42 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

Why not give them a selection of quests; that way they feel in 'control'? no more then 4 or 5 options shown at one time, however, they are randomly selected from a much larger grouping.

Because now you're back to talking about my original idea. The journal would have multiple quest chains. You then asked me what would we do if they couldn't choose, so I offered they get a random choice.

 

 

[Tomatoes 276]

  

3 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

Because now you're back to talking about my original idea. The journal would have multiple quest chains. You then asked me what would we do if they couldn't choose, so I offered they get a random choice.

My apologies, the way you worded it originally was such that it seemed like it was only about the individual skills(dangerously close to info dump territory), not something that would draw them into the game further or give them an actual in-game objective to strive for.

 

On 4/29/2022 at 8:26 AM, Blazecraze said:

1. There would have to be a very large amount of permanently active communities and deeds available at all times for players to join.

It occurred to me today that there are - Ultradude and several others are constantly recruiting players - Would having an opt in option in deed settings to 'advertise' for workers, with a short description or web link to the relevant forum post ease your mind on that? There is already a Village Recruitment Board, might as well ACTUALLY use it.

As for my second idea in my OP, you are right, wouldn't work correctly - that would be something for someone who has no other challenges in Wurm left to complete, not for tutorials and/or new players
 

[Zuelatak 235]

13 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

seemed like it was only about the individual skills

I mean it was. You can see what I had in mind on this post 

My idea was a journal with a category with multiple tiers for every skill. In that post I give an example using Carpentry and the initial tier.

 

Alternative idea. Categories based on activity? Such as: Building, Terraforming, Nutrients (Food / Drink), Combat, Crafting, Improving, etc.

 

 

[Tomatoes 276]

2 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

Alternative idea. Categories based on activity? Such as: Building, Terraforming, Nutrients (Food / Drink), Combat, Crafting, Improving, etc.

 

And that's what my idea was. Glad we are FINALLY on the same page - Architect(building) Blacksmithing(crafting+imping), Carpenter(crafting+imping) - in my case its Classes, rather then catagories.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Tomatoes

[Zuelatak 235]

5 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

And that's what my idea was. Glad we are FINALLY on the same page - Architect(building) Blacksmithing(crafting+imping), Carpenter(crafting+imping) - in my case its Classes, rather then catagories.

I still think I'd rather it be more specific so that I can achieve the bonuses for what I want more quickly

Having to do an entire crafting journal cluster to buff my crafting in one particular skill that I want to focus on is meh.

 

BUT I'd much rather have either option than the current one.

[Archaed 2,280]

The bonuses are way too op. This is about teaching people, not giving them major bonuses. Skip anything that is a skillgain boost, rare boost, affinity boost or anything. 

[Tomatoes 276]

  

1 minute ago, Zuelatak said:

Having to do an entire crafting journal cluster to buff my crafting in one particular skill that I want to focus on is meh

You wouldn't be buffing one particular skill on the 'Carpenter' line, woodcutting and all the subskills(how to do them, being as they all use the same tool sets) would be included because you have to do them as well to be an effective carpenter. Same for Blacksmithing.

if it helps, think of 'classes' as different categories of skills, all related to each other. 

 

1 minute ago, Archaed said:

The bonuses are way too op. This is about teaching people, not giving them major bonuses. Skip anything that is a skillgain boost, rare boost, affinity boost or anything. 

aye, its about giving them the basics, letting them choose a path for them selves, and sending them on their way.

[Zuelatak 235]

1 minute ago, Archaed said:

The bonuses are way too op. This is about teaching people, not giving them major bonuses. Skip anything that is a skillgain boost, rare boost, affinity boost or anything. 

I disagree that 2.5% skillgain bonus is op. The rare/affinity might be, but they're intended to be given to you towards the endgame of your skill grind and only apply to that skill. The player should absolutely be rewarded with something that effects their journey through that skill. If you think 10% more chances at rare and affinities is OP then that can for sure be tweaked.

 

You don't want to just teach them. You want to encourage them to seek out that knowledge. Otherwise, you're just lecturing them and they will get fed up with it. 

[Zuelatak 235]

1 minute ago, Tomatoes said:

You wouldn't be buffing one particular skill on the 'Carpenter' line, woodcutting and all the subskills(how to do them, being as they all use the same tool sets) would be included because you have to do them as well to be an effective carpenter. Same for Blacksmithing.

Subskills would absolutely get buffed on the Carpenter line for sure. WC, and arguably Mining for BS would be on separate lines I think with their own separate bonuses.

[Tomatoes 276]

34 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

Subskills would absolutely get buffed on the Carpenter line for sure. WC, and arguably Mining for BS would be on separate lines I think with their own separate bonuses.

my apologies, i used a word you used, thinking you and i were using the same meaning: boosted - i wasn't thinking of an added bonuses at the time. 

you are thinking of it from only your perspective of what you want, and i totally understand that just having some quick tips on how to do something could be beneficial, however i am looking at this from a multi point perspective of a new player, or trying to. The way you describe your idea the more i see it is a common way to play some games, however there is also the 'hand-holding' method, the 'ill do it myself' method, and the "im completely lost right now, but a push in the right direction will send me on my way" method

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Tomatoes
GPS(grammar punctuation spelling) police

[Zuelatak 235]

14 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

my apologies, i used a word you used, thinking you and i were using the same meaning: boosted - i wasn't thinking of an added bonuses at the time. 

I don't get what you're talking about then. You've lost me a lot recently.

 

15 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

you are thinking of it from only your perspective of what you want

I disagree. It is my idea, but the idea comes from all the perspective I consider. Popups wouldn't even benefit me as I already know most of the facets of the game.

 

16 minutes ago, Tomatoes said:

The way you describe your idea the more i see it is a common way to play some games, however there is also the 'hand-holding' method, the 'ill do it myself' method, and the "im completely lost right now, but a push in the right direction will send me on my way" method

I see my idea as the "hand-holding" method, the "I'll do it myself" method as someone who chooses to do what they want not follow the quests, and the "I'm completely lost right now" method which I already suggested adding a button that randomly selects something for the player to try. 

 

All 3 of which are currently present in the game with the current journal. I wouldn't really describe these as methods as that sounds like method of implementation. I would describe these as player choices which with or without my idea they still have those choices.

[Tomatoes 276]

10 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

All 3 of which are currently present in the game with the current journal. I wouldn't really describe these as methods as that sounds like method of implementation. I would describe these as player choices which with or without my idea they still have those choices.

Let me attempt to sum this up a bit better because there were four(4) methods mentioned, and that didn't include my own preference, nor the most common method suggested:

1. the "I'll do it myself(not new to wurm)" method
2. the "I would like to do X and need some pointers(tool-tips)" method 
3. the "i have no idea what i want to do, just show me how to do whatever(hand-holding)" method
4. the "I'm a bit lost, however a push in the right direction will set me on my way(not new to sandbox games)" method
5. the "i want to know everything through lore" method
6. the "here is the wiki, find it for yourself(infodump)" method